Carlo, where can we start on this vast topic?
Firstly we must allow and take for granted that the phenomenon
is a fact: people have been directly involved in sightings or
encounters of various natures and have provided accurate
testimonies, documents and proof.
Even by filtering the vast
majority, we are left with a large number of encounters
worldwide since time unmemorable, although today we shall focus
on the most recent occurrences of this complex phenomenon which
involves culture, mentality, psychology, anthropology and
sociology of our time.
We are therefore talking about something concrete that has an
existence and I thus disagree with
Professor Zichichi when he
states that UFOs are “the flying elephant of the 20th century”
or with those who pretend not to know about the existence of
I would start by saying that UFOs are a phenomenon which is not
necessarily connected to one of its typical components or
manifestation: the famous “flying discs”, a term now overtaken
by the word UFO. This is in fact only one aspect of the
phenomenon. In today’s Ufology, at least from an anthropological
and para-anthropological perspective, UFOs are not only
mysterious objects, more or less physical, that hover around our
skies or seas. They are a phenomenon which comprises quite a lot
of other aspects, which leads me to take an esoteric approach to
So you are inviting us to look at this issue from a different
Indeed. The UFO subject is one that contains an infinite amount
of other related subjects. We must start somewhere so let’s
start by talking about the phenomenon itself, which is
undoubtedly a fact that has had an influence in our recent
The phenomenon became strongly apparent, documented and socially
accepted during the 1940s. In 1947, a very cardinal year, the
public opinion was shaken by the testimony of the famous
Kenneth Arnold, who saw and
described what he called Flying Saucers in the sky.
He was talking about physical, round
metallic flying objects. From there started a wave of sightings,
occurrences and situations that reaffirmed the existence of this
At this point I do not believe it is
necessary to recapitulate the entire story: there are plenty of
archives, books and credible documentation with regards to these
occurrences, such as The World’s Greatest UFO & ALIEN
Encounters, (Chancellor Press), as well as various research
centers around the world holding thousands of documents,
photographs, testimonies, videos, etc.
Although I must warn against the
vast amounts of unfiltered information found on the Internet, it
is recommended to stick to serious research centers specialized
in the matter if anyone wishes to know more about the actual
occurrences and manifestations of the phenomenon.
We shall therefore start with the
assertion that the phenomenon is a true fact and that since the
1940s until today it has influenced the world with subtle codes
and parameters that are not always decoded by our military or
scientific means and methods.
What were the reactions that these
At the time (in the early 1950s) I would say that the reaction
were mainly of two kinds. On one side, from the US government at
first and then most governments in the world afterwards, we have
denial and strict silence which in return influenced the Media
into becoming skeptical about the events.
This was in the first few years
until it became practically impossible to deny. We were then in
the “Cover Up” phase, with a series of political, military and
intelligence operations aimed at denying, discrediting and
manipulating the occurrences eventually leading to
disinformation campaigns. Still today many believe governments
know but remain quiet about the subject.
I am convinced they don’t know as
much as people believe they do. They are faced with events they
have no control on and therefore prefer not to comment or
publicly speculate about the possible explanations. The little
pieces of information that governments know on this subject and
have uncovered throughout the years has been utilized for
scientific-military purposes but in reality, they still lack a
great amount of information on the matter. I am certain that if
this phenomenon was to disappear all of the sudden, most
governments would sigh in relief.
The only thing governments continue
to deny consistently is the existence of UFOs and therefore the
subject is cut short at that point with any government entity.
What was the other reaction?
On the other side, we have the common man, where two behaviors
have occurred: fideism for some and skepticism for others.
Skepticism being of course reinforced by the “official culture”
and entities trying to discredit the events with some degree of
science or scientific talk behind it.
What do you mean by fideism?
In the United States in particular, we were able to notice
immediately certain reactions of the public towards the events
which could be defined as fideistic. Groups of people saw in the
UFO phenomenon questions of religious, ethical, historical and
philosophical nature. Here we must put some attention on the
inexperience of certain individuals, that we could define as a
sort of “modern prophets”, the so called “contacted”.
These individuals were generally of
medium to low cultural and educational backgrounds that had
never been involved in any activities related to the phenomenon
(aside from George Adamski, of whom we shall talk about in a
short while) and, one after the other since 1948, started
communicating about their involvement with UFOs and related
events, not as mere witnesses but having been in contact with
the “crew” of the UFOs. This suddenly changed the focus from UFO
to so called “alien beings”.
All of this has always followed a specific paradigm or recurrent
scheme that takes us to science-fiction elements that already
existed prior to the UFO phenomenon as we know it and as we are
describing it at this moment.
We shall not take into consideration
for the time being the archaeological mysteries as well as the
research and interpretations of ancient theology. The concept is
again related to the archaic way in which human being perceive
their reality, as an isolated world in space and time that hopes
to find other realities out there.
Therefore, the ‘Contacted” follow
this line of thought: UFOs exist, if they exist then someone
must be operating them, these beings cannot be from this earth
and eventually they will get in touch with our world – so this
is what happened to me!
How do you consider the first
contactees and the messages
they have brought?
The way I see it is that a good portion of these people speak in
good faith. They have most probably been involved in some sort
of event and have all been telling their story, which are all
similar and different at the same time. The paradigm, seen as a
whole, was more or less the same but there were significant
differences in the factual contents and details of every story.
The schema and what we could call
“classic” content of these encounters is what comes to us
George Adamski. Adamski was
an American of Polish origin, a catholic astronomer with
theosophical interests of para-esoteric nature with a Christian
mysticism point of view.
In the early 1950s, along with a group
of friends such as the famous anthropologist Williamson, Adamski
attempts to come in contact with these “alien” beings through a
classic method of medianity: spiritism and the use of Ouija
This first group of contactees was
composed of mere beginners in the subject as well as a couple of
people with some esoteric background. They apparently had two
types of contacts: the first one through the Ouija Board and
via radio – real CB radio contacts with questions and
From these experiments came the book The Saucers Speak
where he tells about the communication between his group and the
UFOs. The first book talks primarily about the radio contacts.
The answers provided were quite
coherent and through these radio contacts they were even able to
set appointments during which occurred the famous sightings.
Nonetheless, in my opinion, the content of the radio messages
where poor sometimes even ridiculous. It seemed as though this
group of people had come into contact with a reality that was
not within the context of an alien civilization that was
presenting itself to the people of the earth.
I must however state that the basic
ideas will keep repeating themselves in the various messages and
the subsequent contactee groups will receive more articulate and
complex messages from the beings of these different realities.
Anyway, in the case of Adamski, an appointment was made in a
specific location where the UFO landed and Adamski had his first
true encounter along with various witnesses.
This happened in 1952 and from this
very moment started Adamski’s history in relation to the
phenomenon as well as the modern history of “contactism”, for
lack of a better word.
How did these Aliens present
Well it is said that the typical flying saucer landed and down
came an alien being, tall blonde with blue eyes, who said his
name was Orthon and he came from Venus. They communicated
telepathically. From this moment onwards, Adamski became a sort
of Ambassador of that alien race and continued to do so until
Adamski was also received by some
important people, such as the Queen of Holland and even Pope
John XXIII. Undoubtedly Adamski became the very archetype of contactism.
What was this message?
In summary, the message was as follows: we are part of an
intergalactic confederation of planets but the humans of the
earth know nothing about it because we have not reached the
necessary evolution in terms of level of consciousness to
understand it. They were a more evolved civilization within this
confederation and they wanted to help us get closer to their
culture and therefore our culture of origin.
For this purpose, they were
supervising us and had something to say about our nuclear
experiments which in more than one way can harm us and them too…
This message has ethical, religious, social and apocalyptical
Thereon, Adamski gets aboard one of
these “machines” which he claims took him to the dark side of
the moon where he states to have seen oceans, forests, valleys
Which is all nonsense, isn’t it?
Well in my opinion it doesn’t mean that Adamski made it all up.
For instance when he describes such things as the “space
fireflies” he is talking about real events that occur in space
and were not known at the time. These phenomena were later
confirmed by science 10 years later, during the first human
We should also consider the fact
that, if a person from the 50’s is taken aboard some strange
thing, taken somewhere far away (perhaps the moon) and put in
front of a port-hole for him to see outside, he could have taken
the space fireflies for lanterns… who knows what he saw or
thought he was seeing… I mean, Adamski and the others were taken
through certain experiences that they were able to perceive and
remember, or were allowed to remember, or simply were able to
metabolize without losing their minds: let’s consider for a
moment that UFOs could originate not only on different places
and dimensions but also from different times, which could well
be terrestrial after all.
This could lead us to consider an
entirely different aspect of Ufology. Last but not least they
could have made it all up but in that case, they were quite good
at making up things that would later be confirmed by modern
science. Nevertheless, Adamski was the founder of a paradigm
which had a tremendous impact and continues to have one until
today although it had its peak in the early 50’s.
Through physical or medianic
contactees all say the same thing: we came in contact
with “them” and they told us that the world is nearing a
catastrophe, we humans are getting it all wrong, they know what
we need to do to evolve, they are here to help and they chose
people who are not in the public eye, therefore manageable,
because if they contacted Nobel Prize winners or great political
figures this would have caused panic among the populations of
Therefore their selection logic is
based on fideism and to contact people with a certain
sensibility through unusual channels rather than presenting
themselves to the masses thus avoiding a great cultural shock.
But these claims were absolutely
disturbing, how could they be accepted globally?
In a nutshell, it is a preparation program for a part of
humanity in order to make the evolutionary jump, which shall
coincide with the Age of Aquarius and other radical long awaited
changes, of spiritual, cosmic and archetypal nature. Of course
here we open the door to many other related subjects, which I
have elaborated upon in my books.
The thing is, these subjects already
existed long before the UFO phenomenon became part of popular
culture. There is nothing that comes through the contactees that
we haven’t seen or heard before through other sources readily
available to most people. Some of these sources are thousands of
These are not new facts and subjects
but the press in the 50’s did not know that and made a huge deal
out of what Adamski had to say. It would have been great if
someone had compared Adamski’s claims with literature from the
Alice Bailey and all other esoteric and para-esoteric researchers and research groups, in order to
understand the vast amount of precedents available on these
The subjects were nothing new but
the UFOs were, or should we say flying discs, which replaced
somehow a previous form of collective contact with parallel
realities: the Spiritism movement of the 1800s.
From that moment onwards, what was the
effect of the contactism phenomenon?
Contactism created quite a large worldwide movement or, as to be
more precise, a network of movements. Within this network of
movements are interlaced a variety of extremely interesting
elements. On one side we have the various experiences told by
the contactees, which are rather phantasmagorical. On the other,
there are very interesting ideas and concepts that emerge in
ante-litteram to the identical concepts and ideas later
New Ages movements.
Among these, in particular, the perception of
the Universe as a
living being and the fact that the Earth and the other planets
are cells within a macrocosmic body, therefore real entities and
living ecosystems with which we have to reach some kind of
symbiosis. Each one of these cells has its own interaction and
organic synergy with its inhabitants as if they were enzymes,
There is therefore an interchange
among these cells or inhabitants that are exchanged between one
cell and another, each with its own particular function. So if
one cell is sick, the external antibodies will intervene to cure
it and this analogy is used as a notion across the Universe.
From this logical line of thinking
has emerged a complex idea of cosmic philosophy.
So through these various testimonies
and stories we are able to infer a unitary line of thought?
I would say, yes. Even if, when you look at the details, these
stories are different from each other. For example,
the contactees that refer to Venus are obviously talking about
different “Venuses” which are also profoundly different from one
another. And we must also consider that from the very beginning,
the contactees talk about two kinds of aliens or superhuman
entities that can be somehow contacted: the positive and the
negative. In short, the good guys and the bad guys.
The good guys come to help us and
the others, a sort of space (or time) Nazis, come with the
intent to predate on us, to experiment violently on us for
genetic purposes or to extract organs and substances from human
individuals (I shall discuss this phenomenon later on), to
conquer or enslave us.
We do not find this particular topic
in Adamski but in various other less credible contactee
So we see the emergence of two
different types of paradigm?
Precisely. One of these groups is rather recent and led to the
infamous and tragic collective suicide of
Heaven’s Gate whose founder,
Applewhite, was fundamentally a
contactee himself. He had
undertaken this dualistic argument for a few years prior to the
Let’s remember that Heaven’s Gate
was not a satanic sect or any of the other things that was said
by the media at the time but rather a movement of mystical-contactee
origin that stated that human kind is the heir of other
civilizations with which it has to reunite.
And in order to “ascend” and reach
what was supposed to be some kind of subtle space craft that
would have taken these people in spirit form, they had to
liberate themselves from their physical bodies and therefore
from the enslavement of this society which is dominated by the
other kind of alien, the bad guys.
Has any of this happened closer to
you, in your native Italy?
Of course. Gradually this topic starts to evolve and various
groups in Italy started to emerge.
In fact, Italy was a rather
relevant centre of contactism of its time. The first prominent
figure in this subject was
Eugenio Siragusa (image below) who
started his experience in 1952, the same year as Adamski.
Only about 10 years later, he
started a movement called the Centre for Studies of the
Cosmic Brotherhood (Centro Studi Fratellanza Cosmica) which
was the cornerstone of Italian contactism.
Contactism in Italy has also seen
other forms of contactism, slightly less UFO related and with
stronger spiritual connotations. For instance the Florence
Circle 77 (Cerchio
Firenze 77) with the messages from the various Masters of other
dimensions which made the so called contact with our world
through the medium Roberto Setti.
Today, one of the strongest
contactee movements is the one started by
which seems to be the continuation of Siragusa’s movement
Why did you decide to give such an
interview? In what way does contactism relate to the esoteric
line of thought?
The study of contactism and the UFO phenomenon in general is
undertaken because most certainly behind the manifestations lies
something interesting that could enlighten various aspects about
our own reality.
Contactism has formed a kind of
relative culture and all those who are more or less involved in
it, with their more or less reliable experiences, have
contributed to the general observational material within that
culture. We must perform our research carefully, trying to
understand all the information available and sorting what is
original and what is not.
There is undoubtedly a common experience that is thereon
translated and interpreted differently, often with some
mystification. This is the biggest pollutant for such research.
Mystification occurs when the individual who experienced a
manifestation of the sort, often beyond his or her
comprehension, starts to adapt, add and distort the facts, thus
annexing content and experiences of others.
This occurs for various reasons,
including a lack of conscience or ethics or simply a need for
Just as it often occurs in the Medium phenomenon, we often see a
mix of reality and mystification which becomes difficult to set
apart. We often see that the public contactees, those who make a
living out of it, start by presenting themselves as messengers,
then become envoys, later prophets (more or less explicitly) and
eventually semi-gods or divine or alien incarnations.
Putting aside the obvious
mystifications and ravings of attention seekers, in general
these topics are not spoken of with acrimony. This is due to the
fact that these people started with a real belief and do not end
up losing their minds but rather being caught in a complex web
of societal factors. Once they are in the spotlight they need to
stay there, most often for economical reasons.
This leads to a distortion of what
was originally intended and leads them to make up additional
Indeed, the phenomenon holds many
sides to it. How can we establish a criterion of evaluation?
On its own, the UFO phenomenon has always been a thorn in the
foot for the rationalists because it is an ambiguous and
slippery phenomenon due to the fact that most solid and
demonstrable evidence is also the most absurd. As a matter of
fact, experiences lived by a lot less sane and sensible people
than Adamski are also those with more tangible and solid
On the other hand, the more mystic,
competent and interesting contactees rarely carry any proof. The
phenomenon is not continuous or coherent, which leads to another
topic, rather than the contactees we talk about
and those who have simply lived through strange experiences.
The most common stories come from
ordinary people who were coming home from a night at the movies
or from the office, down came a flying saucer, out came the
alien on duty (and we shall also discuss the typology of this)
and did something strange like punching through the car and
leave or even stealing the underwear (as one person stated!) or
abduct them and perform horrible tests on them.
Now of course, between the underwear
lady and Adamski who was given the task to communicate with the
World’s leaders, it is obvious to see which story has a more
interesting and long term effect. But Adamski’s story is also
the least documented one. The underwear lady had marks and
prints for all to see that were scientifically authenticated and
Adamski had no proof.
It is therefore evident that behind
the various forms and shapes of the occurrence there is
something real that cannot be framed within our existing
Can we state that the phenomenon is
indecipherable in the sense that the so called aliens could well
be from other planets as they could be from other places (for
inside the Earth), or even parallel or superior
dimensions and when they interact with us the phenomenon becomes
This reminds me of the Flatland story… yes of course, what you
are saying makes sense. This is in fact the new trend in modern
Ufology. But at this point and returning to the anecdotes I’ve
just told you, the phenomenon is something impersonal. It may
originate from external as well as internal dimensions.
It takes the form of the “container”
it finds or to which a form and appearance is given (be it
energetic or physical) which goes along our capacity of
interpretation, our psychological preparation and our senses.
Therefore we are not only talking
about UFO typology, which funnily enough seem to follow the
technological advancements and perceptions of the time they are
seen, but rather Spirits, Masters, Appearances of the Virgin
Mary, Fairies, Gnomes… which can all be boxed within the realm
of an inter-dimensional contact phenomenon during which it is us
humans with our thoughts who give them a shape and form, based
on auto suggestion, expectations, hopes and fears.
This and our capacity to imagine and
elaborate what we are coming in contact with, either
intentionally or by accident.
What I mean to say is that, ultimately, it is a phenomenon which
is influenced, if not caused, by our own conscience. We
therefore enter the realm of what I call Esoteric Ufology.
Can you help us understand what you
are suggesting here?
Take Adamski, for example. A
Theosophist, a Catholic, a Gnostic Christian who says he met
beautiful and luminous angels that took him into space and gave
him the cosmic task of bringing peace and salvation to Earth.
Now let’s take another interesting contactee example that came
Billy Meier. This is a
In the case of Adamski, no one could
ever say that was ill-intentioned because he lived his life in
profound conviction of his beliefs and actions. He died with his
convictions without earning anything out of that.
Billy Meier (image below) on the other hand made a sudden jump,
becoming an international attraction and began commercializing
books and gadgets, which took him down the “source of income”
route, which today pulls a large portion of the New Ages
movements into business and commerce.
Billy Meier had to constantly update
his performance in order to remain in the spotlight.
therefore started to contradict himself and added obvious
mystifications into the factual reality, inspired by science
fiction the growing expectations of the public’s imagination.
Billy Meier talks about “good”
aliens, his Pleiadian friends who care about the destiny
of Humanity, with whom he meets regularly (among which a woman
named Semiase corresponding to one of the fallen
Book of Enoch, which Meier most
probably discovered later on). All of these aliens used mythical
names that related in one way or another to some divinity in a
Then there were the “bad” aliens.
On this topic, Meier wrote:
“…There are also different
life forms that have acquired much knowledge and have freed
themselves from their environment. They travel through space
and occasionally come to Earth. Many of them are rather
unpleasant creatures and live in a type of barbarism that
frequently is nearly as bad as the terrestrials.
[..] Many are evil and power
hungry, therefore it could happen that they abduct some
terrestrials [..] and take them to their planet of origin
where they become experiments.
[..] These intelligences want to
take Earth and its inhabitants under their control.
[..] Many of Earth’s leaders are
under the control of these beings without even knowing it.”
In Italy, one of the prominent
figures of this kind of contactism was Germana Grosso.
She was a Medium from Turin and in the 70s she claimed the
existence of “good” and “bad” aliens, to which she attributed
all the wrong-doing in our society.
Noumi (Channel - Germana Grosso)
She most certainly contributed
greatly to the patrimony of Italian contactism however in my
opinion there is a lot to be skimmed out of her claims.
How do you relate to these experiences?
I am a researcher and lecturer in the field of quantum sciences
but I also represent a line of thought and experiences of
esoteric nature and a point of reference for an Order of
initiates of Thelemic basis.
For many years, I have held lectures
and conferences in Italy and abroad, especially in the field of
Esoteric Physics, Alchemy and meditation, covering some of the
topics I have explained in this interview, which then lead to
Atlantis and the various historical theories that relate to the
presence of alien intelligence on our planet.
With regards to the subject of this
interview, I can say that I have experienced contactism directly
and also lived the phenomenon from within, though trying to
maintain the forma mentis necessary for this type of research.
Keeping an interpretative mind allowed me to live these
experiences in a controlled manner, which is what I intended as
I didn’t experience these manifestations spontaneously. It was
wanted and planned, practicing a certain type of psychic
technique aimed at obtaining the link between parapsychical
realities. It is sometimes required to let go of some control,
which is what these entities need in order to get used to
manifest and communicate in a reality which contains radically
different logics. This of course is not a complete
alienisation of the manifestation but rather an equilibrium
in order to come into contact with ourselves and with this type
of manifestation (and both go together) in a more aware and
conscious manner. The equilibrium is important: letting go but
maintaining the will to see clearly.
Often in certain groups and
currents, especially the religious or neo-spiritual ones, it is
said that culture makes the mind heavier, which must remain
empty to make space for other things.
Well I believe that one must beware
and be very skeptical of such claims and philosophies.
How can religion influence this
Well as an example, it is interesting to note that a lot of the
contactees were influenced by the Christian paradigm: there
aren’t just good angels and demons – typical Judaeo-Christian
dualistic moral schema – but good and bad aliens.
The good ones became the
Avant-gardes of Jesus Christ, who is in their minds an
alien as well and will return to save us. The Christian paradigm
is one form in which the UFOs have materialized; in this case it
is the container that was found.
In Italy for instance, almost all
the contactees were Christian, therefore when confronted with a
supernatural reality they codified it in a Christian manner thus
generating a mix of manifestations among which are UFOs,
Christ, the Virgin Mary, the stigma and various
saints, going all the way to declaring themselves the
reincarnation of one or the other.
This went on with such strength that
contactism turned into a religion.
How did this phenomenon develop in the
U.S. and around the World?
In the U.S., the phenomenon took a more populist route, more
towards the random encounters, where common people suddenly
became involved in strange situations to the point where we
reached the abduction testimonies, retrieved under hypnosis but
backed with objective evidence. This started also happening in
other countries around the World and the testimonies were
considerably coherent with one another.
Sightings and encounters of various
types have been documented in the tens of millions of which tens
of thousands relate to abductions where the subjects were used
in genetic experiments and to obtain biological substances from
them. Nevertheless, we cannot divide so neatly the line between
a contactee and someone who experienced an encounter.
For instance, he most significant
research in this field, for instance
John Mack’s work and
many others on encounters has shown that even common people with
no mystical or spiritual expectations behaved as contactees once
exposed to experiences that their current logic hard a hard time
to digest and comprehend, to the point where their mystificative
behavior became a mechanism to help them cope with their
traumatic and often brutal experiences (some claim the
extraction of blood, sperm, eggs and organs, or even sexual
violence for reproductive purposes and creating hybrid – we
shall not enter this particular topic for the time being).
Obviously we are talking about something considerably different
than Adamski’s views. It is important to note that
manifestations that appeared to contactees in the Adamski style
presented themselves more or less as follows:
Stepping away from the
Ashtar Sheran type, you then
the form of alien generally described by
people with encounters and, more specifically,
abductees who are taken, analyzed, occasionally brutalized and
thrown back on the street.
These tend to be smaller, cold, with large heads, grey and
impersonal, with two small openings on the sides for ears and
the very characteristic large black eyes. Some of the abductees
who have described and drawn these “greys” at first just
described their random first experience. Later on however and
once they had digested the events, they became obsessed
researchers of this subject, sometimes even bringing salvational
messages and taking this type of alien back to the “good” side.
It is also interesting to note that a lot of characters, one of
Whitley Strieber, firstly
go through the experience in a negative and confused manner but
then with time they start to open up to the alien world and
start claiming that it has aspects that relate to us.
They talk about a possible
apocalypse on Earth and the necessity to have a new race. They
don’t talk about spiritual ascension (as did Adamski) but rather
of a physical hybrid race that can survive on Earth after humans
Communion, explains this topic in length.
How does the behavior and eventual
involvement of Governments develop and evolve?
Well in a simultaneous manner to all of this, Governments
changed their strategies along the way. There is no longer a vow
of silence but rather a vow of noise. All of the suddenly,
former high ranking officials of the army, government and
intelligence agencies, with the excuse of no longer being in
service, state that they can now reveal what was really going
We can think of examples such as
Bob Lazar as well as many other former
members of US Intelligence that suddenly reveal their truth and
explain the what happened behind the scenes at Roswell, the
Majestic 12 cover up, the concealment of the alien bodies (greys)
kept in the infamous
Area 51 and so on and so forth.
From this we start the see the
emergency of numerous conspiracy theories. We can also include
the so called pact between the US Government and the alien
nation in 1947, which allowed greys to abduct humans for
analysis and experimentation as long as they were returned
safely. In exchange, the US Government would receive
technologies such as propulsion systems, nanotechnologies,
laser, optic fibre, etc.
It is said that human DNA could be
used to create a superior hybrid race but another theory states
that they need our DNA to reconstruct their own for the survival
of their species. It seems as though these
greys, apparently originary from the Zeta
Reticuli system were also involved with “evil”
reptilians from the Draco constellation and have lost control of
their civilisation to these reptilians. The theories go on and
Obviously these stories are a lot more phantasmagorical than
what Adamski had to say. It is also strange that all of the
sudden all these testimonies arise from nowhere, perfectly
coordinated and coherent, which leaves a certain could of doubt
onto the more serious and prepared Ufology sphere.
All of this feeds the conspiracy
theories, especially when certain deaths are emphasized suddenly
making them suspicious, such as Philip Corso himself. After he
explained the alien propulsion systems and described how the
vehicle and the pilot enter in symbiosis (as Adamski had already
stated), he managed to die.
It all feeds into a cloud of mystery and fanaticism, which only
adds to the confusion.
Indeed, it is very hard to discern
from it all. What are the decryption keys you suggest for the
Well, I am presenting a series of scenarios that superpose each
other and generate great debate internally among Ufologist,
contactees, skeptics and the general public.
Additionally, after the sudden turn of rationalists, that
firstly mocked Adamski but are now kneeling at the feet of Bob
Lazar and kissing the stigmas of Bongiovanni, it seems as though
everything is clear. But in reality nothing is clear at all!
What we can do in order to start making sense of things, is to
bring together authentic skepticism with authentic Gnosticism,
understood as the capacity to interact with knowledge in an
active rather than passive manner.
We can assume that behind the UFO phenomenon, there is some kind
of psychic occurrence, deeply connected to the mutation of the
psychic archetypes that govern our planet.
As Carl Jung said whilst
referring to the mutations linked to the Age of Aquarius, we are
faced with changes in the collective conscience due to the
displacement of the points of reference (constellations) and the
related spiritual and cosmic paradigms. All of this is
manifesting, in multidimensional planes of existence, seeds that
inexplicably are interacting with our interior dimension and our
projection of reality, thus becoming physical events.
At this point, the behavior is that of an individual confronted
to the unknown (from an anthropological point of view, it is
similar to the relationship between men and gods) with the
intent of going through the experience in a cognitive manner
rather than in a conditioned and alienated form. In other words,
in a controlled manner. By controlling the phenomenon, the mask
falls and the real nature is revealed. Therefore, these
realities, these forces, begin presenting themselves differently
in relation to their apparent form.
The phenomenon is then studied for
what it really is and we go into the historical research of the
relationship of humanity with parallel or superior realities in
function of the evolution (or involution) of its consciousness.
For instance, already at the end of
the 1800s all the initiate and esoteric societies claim to be in
contact with superhuman
Intelligences that were part of a hierarchy of beings and were
previously unknown to us. These claims were the preface of the
New Age movements and brought
back into the spotlight a series of concepts, knowledge and
values in relation to the sacred (the Theosophical Society, The
Order of the Rose Croix, the
Knight Templars and their
successive evolutions until the Thelemic movements,
Aleister Crowley, etc.).
One of the first to point this out
back in the days was Madame Blavatsky. These phenomena
were the “ancestors” of UFOs. These beings were of a superior
intelligence and more evolved consciousness than humans, they
have influenced our history from behind the scenes and it was
possible to come into contact with them.
In the Theosophical idea, which has influenced esotericism and
spiritualism until the New Age, there are two hierarchies: the
White Brotherhood and the Black Brotherhood. The
first operates towards our spiritual evolution and the salvation
of our planet. The other opposes our evolution and operates
towards our dissolution and eternal enslavement.
Evidently this is taken into consideration when we hear the
contactee talk about the good and bad aliens and it is obvious
that it is based on this principle. This is also found in modern
New Age movements.
What is the change towards which we
have to open up?
Well first of all, the fact that all of this originates from
different dimensions does not mean it must be accepted in a
passive manner or worse, with fideism and religiosity. Otherwise
we fall into the good and bad schema of Judaeo-Christian
religions and therefore become passive receptacles to the
manifestations and not being able to take control of our state
of consciousness and defining what we see with our subconscious
rather than for what it really is.
These dualistic and moralistic
schemes are unfortunately also used in new sects and communities
that present themselves are New Age but in fact use the fear
factor to the benefit of the guru on duty. If instead we take a
different approach towards this reality with openness,
selectiveness, activeness and a non critical view (our rationale
is insufficient), in other words a “magical” approach, we will
realize step by step that the manifestation becomes impersonal,
as an image that loses its contours. It dissolves but doesn’t
It becomes more authentic and with
less of our emotional charge, of our cognitive schemes, of our
expectations and fears.
Can you illustrate this further?
Well, the look of the greys with big elongated and extremely
black eyes (indecipherable, without emotion) brings back the
reminiscence of predators from humanity’s collective memories
and therefore our worst fears. Their appearance can easily be
compared to several pictorial interpretations of evil and
demonical. It is therefore an image from within the collective
This is just an example of course to
help understand the complex mechanism behind the phenomenon.
the UFO phenomenon there is an
impersonal reality that takes the shape and form of our psychic
contents and of the archetypes of our collective unconscious,
until it solidifies them. This can be seen with the examples and
images of UFOs in the 1950s which were far more primitive
technologically than those seen in the 80s and so on. It
curiously followed the collective imagination of science and
Yet all the documentation and
testimonies are authentic since the manifestation of the reality
that is concealed behind UFOs takes different forms in line with
But is there an actual message that
can be extracted from the various contacts and encounters?
If you analyze the enormous quantities of documentation now
available, I would say there is.
Putting aside the various
created situations (psychic messages, contacts and abductions),
we could say that there is a will to create groups which gather
in such a way that they generate a certain amount of psychic
human energy and direct it towards this topic: as if that
reality was fed with it or retains important to come into
contact with our energy will even play with our fantasy and
imagination to achieve this.
We must keep in mind that the same argument is valid for
manifestations interpreted as religious in nature. Indeed, the
vision of the Virgin of
Fatima seems to have had obvious
connotations from the testimonies of the people present (however
UFOs were not recognized as such at the time). This also refers
to the topic of miracles – natural phenomena that occur due to
an overload of energy – fits within this discussion.
a lot of contactees acquire
healing powers after their experiences.
It is important to note that modern physics is now questioning
the fact that the Universe as we see and interpret it actually
really exists or not. The concepts and theories of space and
time are being revisited; science now talks about a
multidimensional Universe, doors to parallel realities and the
virtual reality of matter.
The fact is that we do not know what
and how the Universe is made so worrying about whether or not
there are other inhabited planets in the Universe is a false
problem: we don’t even know if we truly exist! Until we know
more about the Universe and become more aware of the vast
multidimensional nature of it, we can only apply existing logic
and understanding, which is not nearly enough to grasp the full
concept of reality and the phenomena within.
The approach to understanding
aliens should not be about obtaining answers but rather
asking the right questions. We need new questions that are more
appropriate to the concept of reality rather than just
appearances. The UFO phenomenon, perhaps one of the most
interesting and provocative of our time, can help us consider
new questions as it represents a door to a world beyond.
We must let go of the masks and get
rid of the desire to be herded like sheep by some cosmic
shepherd that takes care and protects us from the big bad wolf.
Or even to think that there could be something of alien origin
inside of us. Until we truly know what we are and what our
conscience is, we will never be able to obtain more evolved
decryption keys of reality.
The fact that the collective
conscience of humanity, through the contact with energies of
this kind, is able to materialize machines will remain
unexplained unless we become aware of these issues.
So what do you think about the
retrieved UFOs or the famous alien autopsy?
Well I am not surprised that physical evidence could have been
retrieved, be it crafts or bodies where autopsies have been
conducted or even live ones who have been interviewed. However,
we must be cautious on the veracity. It could all well be part
of the vow of noise. When in Ufology you see extremely obvious
or clear elements or something not ambiguous enough chances are
it is fake.
Real things are ambiguous in the
sense that the phenomenon itself is ambiguous and often comes
into dissonance with our own logics and surpasses our
So then what are UFOs?
I simply don’t know, but I do not want to know under these terms
simply because any answer would only be a partial answer. As a
researcher I am not interested in half an answer. We must
instead try to understand how things function, how we interact
with alternative realities and this is where “Magic” comes up
along with a variety of ancient traditions that have a lot to
The classic contactee is usually not
aware of this and is not intrigued enough to enquire about
the Dogon traditions for
instance or the principle of
Ceremonial Magic, instead of
Vimana descriptions in the
Veda. Contactees often talk about things they know very little
about, without any anthropological or esoteric knowledge behind
what they are saying.
Their experiences become the
absolute and are then subject to alterations with the external
pressures they are subject to such as fashion, the phenomenon of
the masses, the commerce and market logic and of course the
mystification because when people ask for the truth, some kind
of truth needs to be given out…
On the other hand some people started off with contactism
but then related the events to the Magical realm (and we shall
clarify the term Magic later on). They connected the events with
a series of other factors instead of isolating it. Isolating the
experience will never lead to any interesting results or
The only concern is that a vampirical, dark and gloomy image of
the phenomenon is being fed through. This trend is created by
the so called topic authorities like
Bob Lazar. People that go
around with a briefcase full of evidence, alien implants
extracted from abductees (abductees have often stated to have
been implanted devices to keep them under control).
There are also X-rays and physical
evidence. But these characters that make a living out of the
conferences they give on this topic have turned Ufological
research into a Business. Of course, each one is free to do as
he or she likes but the real concern is that turning Ufology
into something that is preached could lead to fideism or even
worse: let’s not forget that this phenomenon interacts with the
collective psyche and if the collective psyche gives a certain
shape and form, the phenomenon will take this attributed shape.
It is a bit like what some of the
after death theories say: the departed will find themselves in
the paradises or hells they have created for themselves.
So what do you suggest should be done
to adequately confront the phenomenon?
Well it could be very interesting to start modifying ourselves
the paradigm in order to see how it interacts with a suddenly
different mode of interpretation or point of view. As is stated
Quantum Physics, some phenomena
give different results according to the condition and changing
factors of the observer.
Are you saying that UFOs exist as a
manifestation of our conscience?
I am saying that UFOs exist as long as they find a psychic
content that gives them a solid form, shape and nature. From my
point of view, it would be too simplistic to just state that
they are in our minds. They are a result of our conscience just
like everything else but then we enter in the realm of mysticism
and spiritual physics.
For now let’s just say that they are
a shape and form given to a form of energy that doesn’t
originate from us but that is part of certain aspects of reality
that we still know nothing about (whether it is interior or
exterior doesn’t matter at this point because we would enter
into a different type of discussion where a different type of
logic needs to be applied)
In any case, we are talking about an exogenous alien phenomenon
that opens up like a window towards another reality and that
should lead us to enquire how much of that "alienness" is really
within us or at least to question how much of what we perceive
as real comes from what we have told to be our world and
This has been taught to us by two “evil masters”: firstly by a
certain a kind of rationalism that is derived from the other
evil master, a certain kind of religious dogma that has
alienated us from the Sacred and the Divine within
(as concepts and absolutes) and has taught us that we are a nice
herd that requires a shepherd to guide it, protect it and save
There is a very thin line between a
good shepherd and an evil one so if we let this
paradigm spill into the UFO phenomenon, with our,
...it may well turn against us.
On the other hand, if the phenomenon
is handled in an active, aware, critical and analytical manner,
all of the sudden the physical manifestation rarefies until it
It exits from the loop of
emotionally charged manifestations on the physical plane (as it
often occurs in paranormal phenomena) and becomes an event with
a more harmonized and coherent connotation. At this point, the
most appropriate behavior should be scientific-Gnostic approach:
there is one discipline that has always attempted to teach the
balance between reason and perception and that is “Magic”,
starting always with the harmonization of science and
In my opinion, this is the behavior
that should be applied on the UFO phenomenon, which inserts it
in a larger topic as merely a component of the whole.
So we enter the topic of Magic?
Indeed, but the term needs to be redefined for the wider
audience, later on.
Let’s connect this topic to all the subjects we have discussed
previously, such as Magic, Esoteric Physics, Thelema, Crowley,
etc. Actually since we mention
Crowley, we have to note that the
archetypes now related to UFOs had already been presented much
earlier than the UFO phenomenon in certain esoteric circles.
As a matter of fact, below is a
drawing done by Crowley in the 1920s that illustrates a force, a
superior alien intelligence with which he was in contact in a
very similar manner:
This entity contacted by Crowley
was defined by him as superhuman and was identified with
the name of LAM. It was part of
the so called Secret Chiefs along with another entity
the entity that conveyed to him the
We can’t help
but notice that the physiognomy and traits of this being are
somewhat similar to those found later on in the modern contactee
But the same thing can be said of various primitive drawing and
Indeed. Authors such as Kolosimo,
Sitchin and Bauval
bring our attention to a variety of depictions of ancient
symbols and divinities (Egyptian, African, Sumerian rather than
Mayan, etc) that recall the idea of alien beings with even suits
and helmets. Personally I would be rather cautious on the
interpretation: the fact that divine beings were drawn with big
eyes doesn’t necessarily mean they were wearing masks or devices
and perhaps the eyes and antennae could have had a symbolic
magical-mystical meaning to these people.
We should not attempt at all costs
to attribute significations that belong to our own current logic
and understanding of reality to symbols from profoundly
different cultures than our own.
Of course I won’t even go into the
forced conclusions and interpretations made by some authors in
order to sell more books…
You spoke of Aleister Crowley earlier
on: how does he fit into this subject?
We can say that the first form of esotericism that investigated
reality as holistic and multidimensional, thus unifying
Esotericism, Magic, Esoteric Physics and Ufology was the
Thelemic current, founded by Crowley.
He has the merit of understanding
the connection and being the precursor of the great archetypal
changes of the Age of Aquarius. Later on
Grant, Bertieaux and
various other research movements of Thelemic-Maatian influence
investigated the theories of Chaos, Stellar Magick, etc.
Are you talking about studies on
Yes but with many nuances and different cultural heritages.
Clearly paraphysics was invented by
physicians who inherited a certain classical culture and on the
other side you have the New Age movements that push towards an
extreme simplification of the mechanisms, often emphasizing the
dualistic idea which suggests that from these alien dimensions,
other beings and forces attempt to keep us under control and
vampirise our vital energy (religions in this case would be the
social and psychological instruments created to extract the
vital energy out of human beings; this energy then goes to feed
these external forces).
Obviously this insists on the
dualistic approach, a rather distant concept from the paradigms
of the Age of Aquarius (or Eon of Horus). This approach
has led to the appearance of sects, pseudo-Aquarian communities,
neo-spiritual groups and new gurus of various sorts.
It is important to point out that even notable researchers like
Castañeda have fallen into the dualistic trap. Towards the end
of his career,
Carlos Castañeda started talking about malignant
entities that surrounded mankind and feed upon us like simple
Wherever there is a line of thought along these
lines, it actually creates a dualistic scheme of reality which
will take on the same expression: these forces exist, I am not
saying they don’t – they are mentioned even in my studies and
writings – but they are entities created by us humans as a
result of thousands of years of ways, behaviors and attitudes...
They are not the historical cause of
humanity’s sleep and spiritual involution. The awakening must
therefore begin from within us.
It is us who are allowing this predation and we have locked
ourselves into a variety of political, social, religious and
cultural schemes that make sure this continues in this manner.
There is now of course en energetic mechanism that ensures the
continuity of this entrapment but it was created by mankind in
the first place.
And if we continue to think in this manner,
things will be as we want them to! The entrapment will continue.
We are in fact capable of creating the hells and paradises that
we want. Even when certain phenomena that are in between various
realities manifest, they do it as per how we, as a collective
entity and consciousness, have determined they should manifest.
If we suddenly come out of the idea
and principle of sin, the devil, the paradigm of
sheep-shepherd-wolf and from the constant necessity to be
reassured and “saved” (which has also distorted some of the core
value of the New Age, turning things into a bunch of
superstitions with followers and money making schemes), the
phenomenon would probably change drastically to our own benefit.
Today’s modern scientists talk about a
Holographic Universe. Can you help us understand this concept?
The Universe is product of the projection of our senses and from
our conscience. We are part of, or rather, we are one with the
Absolute (conceptually and energetically).
The Absolute for some reason we have
yet to understand manifests in different frequencies of energy
As these frequencies come into
contact, they create, as it is in our case, an apparent 3D image
orientated in a unidirectional time dimension, which constitutes
our plane of existence. In short, we are locked inside a
sensorial and circuit until we learn to control this circuit, we
cannot have the absolute certainty that things are the way we
think and believe they are: Simply due to the fact that we
vibrate on the same frequencies, we have the sensation of
physicality. But this is only true on a plane parity.
Esoteric Physics explains Magic
(or Magick) is the multidimensional science of reality,
the mathematics to understand and move within the various planes
of reality and conscience (which are in fact one and the same),
but remaining cautious not to think we can apply the same
criteria from one plane to another.
So, to what extent is there real
objectivity to what we consider to be material?
As a matter of
fact the UFO phenomenon seems to be some sort of confusion of
planes because it mixes with our physical and material reality
something that in fact could be very different, becoming
physical when it sees fit, later becoming energy again,
disappearing or mutating completely, especially when we try to
define it within a set scheme.
How do you connect what seems to be a revolution of scientific
and cultural thought along with the return of a certain esoteric
philosophy more or less linked to the New Age and the
Age of Aquarius?
This is a rather historical moment where all that was once an
established fact is thrown back onto the discussion board. The
planes are shifting and mixing in order to reformulate what we
are defining as reality: perhaps we are at the edge of a great
mutation, a big change (someone might have called it apocalypse)
and great affluence of energy. In some of my studies and
writings I have gone into more detail on the topic of parallel
worlds and the detachment of planes of existence.
Surely at a global level, we are in
the midst of a mixture of paradigms that need to reformulate in
a new manner, according to potential futures and schematics that
could go in very different directions from one another.
Given that the UFO phenomenon is
extendable to the entire human history, can we consider the
I think his theories are fascinating and audacious although
after the first book, things started to take a rather commercial
and sensationalistic turn in the subsequent writings.
But this is only my personal point
of view. We could most certainly investigate further, with
different instruments of research, the various possible contacts
that may have occurred throughout human history, even in the
very old history of our planet without necessarily making
improbable reinterpretations of the Bible as a cosmic saga but
still putting into discussion the birth of religions and the
relationship between mankind and the Sacred.
The Bible may have passages that
could bear a Ufologist interpretation however there are also
cabalistic components that can offer a completely different
meaning as well. For this purpose perhaps the Veda are far more
explicit… it is important however not to take things too
literally; at least not as a starting point.
Furthermore, if we take Plato,
Pythagoras, Proclus or even Marsilio Ficino
Giordano Bruno, we can find
elements of great interest that can definitely make us think and
meditate more than many modern authors that surf on the fashion
wave of the moment.
What do you mean by Magic or Magick?
Certainly it is not the magic of wizards and fairy godmothers or
that of stage magicians. This term has a more complex definition
also from an etymological perspective. From an anthropological
and esoteric point of view, Magic (Magick) defines the general
approach towards the knowledge of reality and the values of the
Sacred, where human beings place themselves in an active and
synergetic position within reality: in more philosophical terms,
humans adore the gods but then eat them to become God.
This is the behavior of the magus as
opposed to the faithful follower who abandons his will to the
divinity for it to do as it pleases. In the end, the result
could be the same if we enter into a discussion about mysticism,
but the means and ways to reach that are considerably different.
The serious mystic is that who can maintain control and a
coherent magical behavior that will allow him to reach a
communion with the Absolute within him.
Evidently, in order to understand
who controls who, we must firstly understand who we really are:
the first thing that needs to be understood is ourselves and our
True Will in order to then be able to apply it onto the
Absolute. Therefore it is possible to become a contactee
overnight (especially if the contact is accidental and
spontaneous) but one cannot become a magus overnight.
If one starts with a phenomenon of contactism and later acquires the faculties and knowledge of a
magus, it is possible to combine both and make a notable
qualitative jump. The whole concept is to develop the capacity
to access the phenomenon within the timeframe and modalities
established through a form of harmonic and balanced concurrence
This must be achieved without any
abuse of power or losses of lucidity even during the time when
one remains open and fully available towards something greater.
This is accomplished through the ever more precise use of will
power and the ever widening use of our own senses, as well as
mental and spiritual faculties.
At that precise moment, we can have a glimpse on what could be
reality, with less and less filtration, but also a glimpse on
the means and the purpose of it all.
This is what Magic (Magick)
is: a communion with the supernatural without having to submit
to an authority that doesn’t exist, because the only true
authority is our own conscience, as long as we have been able
sharpen it and make it evolve according to our true nature.