A New Conversation With Michael St. Clair
Montreux, Switzerland, May 2008
After the initial success of our
Futuretalk with David Wilcock, we decided to continue our
Futuretalks as a series of conversations - not interviews
- with people who have something important to say. This format
encourages a more free-flowing interchange with our guest while at
the same time allowing us to engage in a discussion that includes
many of the questions and concerns of those who write to us every
A Futuretalk with Michael St.Clair seemed to be an
excellent next step. Michael, as those of you will know who are
already familiar with our first interview with him at Chillion
Castle in Switzerland, is a fascinating futurist and metaphysician
as well as an acclaimed astrologer. He's been thinking about the
future in a multitude of ways for many years, has written three
important and well-received books, and recently has re-entered the
world of banking to advise private clients with an eye to the coming
changes in world economies and ways of doing business.
We cover the whole range from safe spaces (which Michael
prefers to call radiant zones), to what might be happening
and what one should consider preparing for in the future, coming
bank failures, possible geopolitical events that could change our
lives, and other concerns. Michael has spent several years viewing
the scenarios - both positive and negative - that one might need to
consider in the years ahead.
He shares his thoughts and his own
personal vision, as well as some key points that everyone should
keep in mind in the coming days.
Futuretalk 2 - a conversation with Michael St Clair A
Project Camelot interview Part 1 of 2
Montreux, Switzerland, May
After the initial success
of our Futuretalk with David Wilcock, we decided to
continue our Futuretalks as a series of conversations -
not interviews - with people who have something
important to say. A Futuretalk with Michael St Clair
seemed to be an excellent next step. Michael, as those
of you will know who are already familiar with our first
interview with him at Chillion Castle in Switzerland, is
a fascinating futurist and metaphysician as well as an
Michael has been thinking
about the future in a multitude of ways for many years,
has written several important and well-received books,
and recently has re-entered the world of banking to
advise private clients with an eye to the coming changes
in world economies and ways of doing business. We cover
the whole range from safe spaces (which Michael prefers
to call radiant zones), to what might be happening and
what one should consider preparing for in the future,
coming bank failures, possible geopolitical events that
could change our lives, and other concerns.
Michael has spent several
years viewing the scenarios - both positive and negative
- that one might need to consider in the years ahead. He
shares his thoughts and his own personal vision, as well
as some key points that everyone should keep in mind in
the coming days.
Start of conversation
Kerry: Hi. Iím Kerry Cassidy from Project Camelot. And
weíre here with Michael St. Clair and Bill Ryan from Project
Camelot. And Michael St. Clair and I and Bill are going to have
a Futuretalk together. Weíre going to be talking about
the years beyond. And weíre going to be talking about, leading
up to 2012, what we might plan for, what might be in the offing.
Bill Ryan: Thereís a lot going on! Many of you watching
this video now will be aware that weíre at the start of changing
times. And the conversation really is about: What are those
changing times? How might they affect each one of us in
different places? If we are aware of this and mindful of this,
what actions should we be taking?
We have a lot of people writing to us every week, every day,
with questions about whatís happening, whatís going to happen,
whatís next. And what should I do? We talked about this a little
bit with our first Futuretalk with David Wilcock. Weíre going to
continue this conversation. Weíre a couple months down the road.
Michael St. Clair has got a lot to say. [laughs]
Michael St. Clair: Yes. Thank you.
K: And weíve got a lot to share. So this is ... letís
actually say the month. This is May of 2008.
M: First degree of Gemini. Yes.
M: Sun in first degree of Gemini.
K: Is that today? As of today?
M: Yes. The 21st of May 2008. First degree of Gemini.
K: Because a couple of years from now when people look at this,
theyíll be saying: When was this shot?
B: When this is shot. So, one of the things that we ... Well,
let me speak personally. One of the things that I really took
away from Michaelís first interview here... which feels like a
very long time ago. It was back in 2006...
M: Yes. A lot has happened since.
B: It really seems like a long time ago!
B: ...was you were talking about ďsafe spaces.Ē
B: And, speaking personally, this was the first time that I
started to sit up and think ... safe spaces? I thought I was in
a safe space. Maybe Iím not. I started to ask those questions.
And youíve done a lot of work, a lot of thinking since then, a
lot of exploration personally.
M: Mm hm.
B: And have given a lot of thought to what is this idea of a
safe... In fact, if I remember rightly from a recent email we
had, you donít even want to call it a ďsafe spaceĒ anymore
because thatís like defensive thinking. Tell us about that.
M: Yes. Well, itís because this was my first word and Iíve
changed it to suggest more literally, to call it ďIslands of
Light,Ē or ďRadiant Zones.Ē
B: I love that.
M: ďZones of Radiance.Ē Because what Iím saying is that we know
that weíre coming to some times where, just things are not going
to look so funny on this 3-dimensional level. But this is more
to do with the mindset of the people, with the majority of the
people just not being with it.
Do you remember that two years ago I told you that people will
begin to lose it? They just wonít be with it, mentally,
spiritually, energetically etcetera.
So you need to know that inside of these ďenergy depletion
zonesĒ worldwide we will be able to create zones, little small
villages, cities even, or just in the woods or wherever,
situations which are ďsafe,Ē in the sense that the right people
come together and some sort of sanity, spiritual-mental sanity,
rules. And that creates a radiant zone. So itís not so much
K: It has to do with the consciousness of the people...
M: Yes. Itís not so much about... Go ahead.
K: ...that inhabit the place
K: ...and makes the place a safe place.
M: Yes. Thatís the point I wanted to say, that my last point is
that you can have tons of rice and all the goods and all the
safety you want and all the safeguards and everything. We can go
through what a safe place is and is not. But if you have one
insane person, the whole thing falls apart, spiritually
So the place will be as safe as the people are functional.
M: Then of course you want to know... Probably, I shouldnít
really say that because if everybody did what Iím suggesting, it
would create more mayhem than the Earth changes.
But of course itís probably not advisable to live in the middle
of a huge city because, simply, in a huge city you have a lot
more dysfunctional behavior. So itís not just about running for
the hills or going into the mountains or into the woods. Itís
not so much about that. Itís about having the right people
together who really understand what this is about, what the next
few years are about.
B: So hereís a question. There may be some people watching this
now who are saying: What are you talking about? Everythingís
fine. [Michael laughs] And, you know, everything does look fine.
I mean, it really looks fine.
B: But what is all this about?
K: Weíre here in an idyllic space. Weíre in Montreux. Weíve got a
beautiful view of the lake. And this is the Hermitage. Itís a
lovely hotel/guest house, whatever. It looks idyllic.
K: What could be wrong?
M: Itís a place I would have. [laughs] I would have it.
B: So whatís going on?
M: No. Whatís wrong? Things are not good, really, if you want to
be honest. Because below the surface... and Iím not so much
talking about whatís going on in politics, economy and all that.
Weíll get to all that in a moment maybe.
Iím talking about that people are not quite with it. People
donít understand. most, OK, donít. Ninety-five percent of the
people, I would suggest, are not really aware of what is cooking
underneath in the energetic... Iím talking now about energy, OK?
Whereas a few of us, and more and more... Thanks to the work
youíre doing, more and more people are really starting to - I
donít like the word ďwake upĒ - but theyíre starting to become
aware, really aware, of things that are going on.
And theyíre starting to ask questions which lead to a lot of
soul-searching as well as asking themselves about what is about
to happen and what can we do about it, etc. Because itís really
about what we CAN do. Itís not so much about this thing, funny
prophecies and problems that will be. Itís really what we
actually can do.
Because there is a lot we can do to go through this time
without, actually, any fear. And actually come out of it better.
Because some good things will happen, are about to happen.
So you have two kinds of realities that are sort of merging.
Thatís the dimensional shift, and then splitting, going either
way again, where you have a not-so-fine reality that has always
been, ... really, you know, for many years, for a long time,
dysfunctional behavior, wars, etc etc ...becoming more and more
crescendo type, coming to big confrontation, big conflict and
I can show you later on an astrological chart how tension looks
like in two years. But you have, on the other hand, very
advanced people who are aware of whatís going on, and they can,
with their mind, to some degree turn the tide for some people.
Thatís kind of how I would...
K: Well, isnít there the idea that
the indigo children can
actually facilitate this? Thereís a telepathic linkup thatís
going to be happening with these people, as well as those who
are aware, in which we are all working together to kind of bring
the Earth through this time and into a better dimensional shift,
to a better place...
K: ...as we
move into the Galactic Center and these waves of
energy that are coming through. I donít know how you describe
M: Yes. But...
K: ...you know, in terms of physics.
B: Yes. I would like to... Iíd like to back right up here,
because I want to represent the people whoíve got practical,
pragmatic questions, you know. Like the conversation we were
having earlier today. Should we move to Sedona? Or not? You
know, whatís going to happen in America in the next few months?
Whatís going to happen to the water table? Is there going to be
enough water there? What about the infrastructure?
B: Now I want to represent the questions of those people.
Although I recognize that thereís a metaphysical backdrop to all
this that a lot of people watching this will also be quite
interested in, I want to know on behalf of the people watching
this: What actions should I take? Should I be stockpiling food?
When does this all start? How long should I be prepared for?
Whatís the worst-case scenario? Itís about backup systems. What
systems should be backed up?
And is it irresponsible to talk about this anyway because maybe
weíre scaring people unnecessarily? What do you feel about...
M: Well, thatís a point. Yes, thatís the point. You see, that we
have to strike a balance. We cannot cause almost fear by
speaking too much about it, but on the other hand we canít say:
Oh, everythingís fine, thereís no problem, all these prophecies
are ridiculous, youíre all crazy.
Because itís not. Itís a bit of both. But I donít think itís a
good idea to say: Oh everybody go pile up on food, because that
creates more problems. Like, you have restaurants, for instance,
taking too much stuff in?
K: Well, let me just...
M: Sorry. Go ahead.
K: Letís describe the problem that may be occurring, OK? And we
donít know the... we actually donít know the degree of those
problems. But we certainly can say, first of all, weíve got
Earth changes. Right?
M: Yes. Theyíre happening now. China, Burma, Chile. I mean, itís
right now, ongoing. So this is a reality.
K: OK. So this may escalate? Right?
M: For sure, yes.
K: The magma in the Earth is heating up. Thereís a relationship
between the heating up of the sun, or the activity of the sun,
and magma in the Earth causing...
K: ...more activity, increased earthquakes. And as a result of
that, youíre talking about getting on higher ground. This is
where these kinds of preparations make sense.
M: Yes. Sure. You do not want to be on coastlines. Because
clearly what happened in Burma will be happening, most probably,
in many other places where weather patterns, patterns of
weather, can just not be predicted; can also be, you know,
scalar or other weather warfare-type weaponry. I
donít even really want to go there much. But the fact...
K: But the fact is many of these are not natural.
M: Yes. But the fact is water levels will rise. Yes, water
levels will rise and the effect will be a lot of cities will be
under water, at least temporarily. Itís not so that the water
will rise forever and stay there. I donít think so. But itís,
due to magnetic shifts, possible that the water can even
shockingly, like surprisingly, come up and lift the whole place.
What should we do about it? Thatís a fair question. Thatís not
alarmist. Thatís not causing fear. Thatís just being
M: Many people say this is fear-mongering, etcetera. I say:
Well, wait a second. Being intelligent, knowing things ahead of
time is not the same as fear. So thereís just a balance there
that one has to...
K: Thereís preparation to be made in case of things that might
K: Also the increased ferocity, if you will, of the weather.
Even... You know, if you live in Florida, you know youíre going
to be inundated...
M: Yes. ThatĎs clear.
K: ...by hurricanes, whatever. Right?
M: Floridaís definitely not a good place. I live there. I have
to go myself. [laughs] I know this time is coming.
B: But when we spoke two years ago, you were talking,
advocating, finding a safe place. And Iím using those words
because thatís the word you used.
M: Yes. Thatís right. And Iím still for it. Go on.
B: Yes. What are your personal plans over the next year or so?
B: What are you planning, what are you thinking of doing and
M: Thatís a good question. Honestly Iím not sure. Iím not trying
to avoid the question. Iím really not sure because it depends on
certain things, what I do with certain clients who do want to
build a center but more for education, dealing with indigo
children, people like
Boris, etc. And another part of my... I
canít really disclose exactly what Iím doing with clients
because itís their affairs.
But Iím also not sure because I want to keep flexibility. I
believe we must be flexible to go this way or that way. In other
words I have several plans for several possibilities.
B: OK. But whatís your model? Can you talk about it in general
M: Yes. OK. The model of a radiant zone would be, basically you
need a place that you own outright with patents to the land. You
need land, probably ten, twenty acres, forty acres at least. You
need water on that land. You need power, which you can do of
course with modern, other ways of energy, off the grid. And you
Those are the four things you have to have under control. Again:
land, water, energy, and food. And then you must have
So the idea is that people find to each other and group each
other according to interests. And ideally they would have an
expert in farming, in food, in sustainable living, a healer, a
teacher. You have to have someone who understands medical,
alternative medicine etc. Then you need a scientist, a
technology guy, IT [information technology].
K: In other words, people with different skills coming together.
M: Yes. Yes.
K: There wouldnít be all the same kind of people, but as a
matter of fact communities need to be made up of different kinds
M: Thatís right. You want people who have something to give to
each other, that together they can then create a new economy, a
new society, really.
And then the idea is that you have two, four, five hundred such
little societies dotted around the planet who ideally, by
telepathy or new form of internet, can actually communicate with
each other and create an economy together.
A barter economy. Just modern new way of economy, where we move
away from the economy we have - which is reptilian central
banking kind of finance - towards a sharing kind of...
B: [amused] Reptilian central banking? Thatís a wonderful way of
M: Well, it is. Thatís what it is. [Bill and Michael laughing]
B: I love it.
K: But also tell people, people that donít know, that you have a
background in banking.
M: Yes, we spoke about that last time.
K: But itís good, because if they havenít seen
interview with you, if you could say a little bit about your
background. I think that would be very important, to just sort
of introduce where youíre coming from.
M: OK. Itís simple. I studied law, didnít finish. I didnít get a
law degree. [laughs] I then went into banking, where I did
different kinds of things that showed me very clearly how the
economy works, what banking is about, how investment banking
works, which I find very interesting.
And Iím still in a way, or, more so than ever I am coming into
investment banking. I am actually surrounded by advanced
investment bankers and people who have understood that resources
need to be redistributed and used in a different way to create
such things like these radiant zones, these new economies, new
energies, etc. Big projects.
K: But you also have a background in the Swiss army. Is this
M: Yes. I was a Swiss army officer. Yes. So what I learned there
was, actually, how to do what weíre talking about, I mean how to
run a place, how to basically manage people. Itís about how
people together create a life.
And this has to be done without the government, without
structures that are given by the reptilian central banking,
central structure, central electricity, power, etc.
So the idea is to go independent and almost guerilla style. And
thatís what we actually did in the Swiss army. Itís a sort... At
the time I was in, I worked with a colonel and general who
believed in this absolutely new untried way of forming an army
that works on the ground with the people to defend... like a
K: Mm hm.
M: And so that was a management school, essentially.
And from there into banking. I found in banking what works, how
it works, and what does not work and why it doesnít work, and
what leads to the problems. So what Iím saying is that we are
going to need to bring together people...
K: And you work with clients...
M: Yes. Of course.
K: ...in the banking area.
M: This is what is do mainly now. Yes. I have two banker clients
and a few other clients who have actually become partners. I
mean, I can disclose it. I am the investment banker, one of the
investment bankers, of this concept of radiant zones. So what
weíre trying to do is bring funds to projects, and project
people to the funds. It sounds easy but it isnít. It needs
alchemy, chemistry, bringing the right people together, etc.
K: And then you have an incredible background in astrology.
M: Well, that was my big hobby then [laughs]. I did that since
way back when I was very young. I got involved into astrology
because I knew the clock of the universe can tell me more how
things work. And so I got into this to the point where I am a
professional at that. And I combined this. I am actually doing
financial astrology. I can, with charts, show you how the
economy moves, when gold goes up, down, markets move, etc. So
that kind of work is what I do with clients.
B: Hm. Fascinating.
K: And on top of that you started to create these amazing
M: OK. So this story here with the crystals. This is a heavy
B: That is an incredible thing. [Michael laughs]
K: Oh, itís beautiful. Itís really stunning.
M: This is about
orgone energy at its best. What I found out is
that I have a recollection from a long, long time ago, which
could have been
Atlantis or something similar, where I was the
master of the crystals. And we used to do - and we will in the
future again - communicate through these crystals. You
We are made of crystals. The brain, pineal gland,
etc, has crystals in it, so that Earth crystals and crystals in
other star systems communicate through us.
So I did this out of interest to see what happens and how energy
can be moved, if I can help make things happen for clients, etc.
Weíre going here into esoteric stuff, but which is just hands-on
esoteric, and it does work. Clients tell me that they can move
energy. That they can actually look into this...
M: ... and meditate and they get messages out of it and ideas.
And they get inspired to do stuff, at that level.
And on another level, clearly this produces an orgone field in
the place that creates stability, serenity, peace of mind, etc.
At the very least, I maybe proactively can even, I mean,
protect, at the minimum; and at the maximum, maybe even project
energy to help people make things happen. Thatís why I did that.
K: And do healing as well on these environments. And youíve
created this book that has a lot of his crystals. I mean, the
M: To me itís art, but it is... Go ahead.
K: Youíve got stones, the power of the healing of the stones.
K: Youíve got amethyst. Youíve got, you know, lapis lazuli.
Youíve got, you know, quartz crystal, rose quartz. So each, the
M: Some of them also have gold in it, like this one has paleo-gemstones
and gold. So I experiment with metals as well, and runes. To me
itís art, in the first place, but then I found out, well, maybe
something more happens.
M: And itís an ongoing experiment. Iíve done
about 50 of those.
K: And this is part of the future energies that these
communities may be creating for themselves.
B: In summary, so your expertise is in energetics, astrology,
banking... and survival. [laughs]
M: Yes. [laughs]
B: Thatís an interesting skill-set.
M: Well, I was also interested in economics. How does the
economy work? All is economy. Our whole society, human beings
who share or cooperate, that is what makes an economy.
The problem weíre in is simply, we are now in 2008, coming
towards the end of what I call this reptilian cycle of central
And now the resources are going to shift to what I call Nordic
or ET-type resourcing-banking-economy, where people have to get
their resources going and then do their own societies and their
own economies. In that sense I am a visionary. And it will
B: What does that mean? I mean, if Iíve a whole bunch of dollars
in an American bank, do I leave it in there or do I do something
else with that? This is a practical question.
M: Yes. No, no, my advice is... Well, first of all, the dollar
is going to lose its value by at least another factor of half or
more. And no, donít leave it in the bank. You should really...
K: Banks are failing right now. Isnít that right?
M: There is practically no bank that is not failing if weíre
really honest. I mean, I canít say names, because I canít go
there. But I can say that I know from an inside, really deep
inside, viewpoint - just like you have with Area 51, with your
ET knowledge - I have inside banking knowing to say that most
banks are in very deep trouble and theyíre going to fail. And
they will merge and merge until there will only be maybe four,
five, big groups of banking left.
So the trend is towards more centralization. So knowing that,
you have to take it out, get your stuff in silver, in gold or
resources, commodities. A friend of mine, an investment banker,
works on commodities.
M: And create a new kind of economy in which you become
independent of all of these things. And this is challenging. We
are talking really advanced challenging stuff. Those are not
M: But the good thing about all these changes, all these
Earth changes, is that very advanced new people will
come forward and lead. This is human leadership at its best and
it always comes about through huge challenges. So thereís
actually only positives in this whole mess, you know.
B: Yes. But do you think personally, to use the clichť, that
things are going to get worse before they get better? That weíre
B: Yes. You think so.
M: Yes. Of course. Between 2010 and 2017... I made a chart here
for you. This is a typical astrological chart...
B: Now, I donít know a thing about astrology, but I can see that
M: ...that shows 2010.
K: The most challenging, you know, geometry, is the square.
M: Yes. The ground square, OK?
K: A square right in the center. Is this a chart for the world?
M: This is for the whole world. OK? This shows simply... Of
course this is schematic, geocentric, that doesnít really make
sense in reality. But, as a schematic, what goes on here is, we
see Pluto has entered Capricorn, which means the economy of
energy precisely. And so Pluto is going to totally transform
everything to do with society, banking, government, education,
K: And Pluto symbolizes the destructive quality.
K: And the transforming and the rebirth of something.
M: And the transformation. Yes.
K: So when it hits Capricorn, which Capricorn is the sort of
standardization; itís the sort of rigidity.
M: Yes. Yes.
K: Itís everything of the past thatís already been built up till
you get this real transformation coming into what everything
people have been used to for so long. Youíre going to have
explosive changes as a result of that.
M: Yes. And you can clearly also see when you compare backwards.
1765, that time about, was last time it was in Capricorn. And
then every 250 years back.
Now Iím not suggesting that because in the past weíve seen ďA,
B, C,Ē therefore in the future we will be ďQ, Y, Z.Ē That wonít
make sense. Thatís not the way we should think. But clearly you
see certain patterns of whatís going on.
Now when you add Uranus in Aries, too, in the square, and on a
trigger moment like the one I chose here, which is August 7, the
first August week of 2010... in other words, just two years from
now. We had just two years ago, now, and again in two years.
You will see 2010 begins what I would simply call a challenging,
tense time where thereís a strategy of tension in the air. And
conflict. I mean, letís face it, this produces conflict and that
is with Saturn in Libra opposing Uranus in which the T square,
the anchor of Pluto...
Now, whatís important about this... If this was just one moment
of a few weeks or a few months, one could say, you know, big
deal. But this Pluto-Uranus square is actually going to MOVE in
tandem (square means 90 degrees) for at least seven years. So
this is a very long period.
K: So between 2010 youíre saying and 2017 weíre facing major...
M: Major changes of all kinds.
B: But does that mean that everythingís OK until then?
B: Are you saying that things will only get difficult before...
M: Sorry. No, not really. Things are not really OK, I think. But
we have time enough, enough time to get well prepared. By
ďpreparedĒ I mean mentally prepared, in preparations of knowing
what weíre going to deal with, of training our minds to go
further to do just almost whatís impossible. And we can do the
impossible. We can make it happen.
And after 2010 and up to 2017, it is quite clear that weíre
coming into what one could call difficult times or unusual times
at least. But that doesnít mean that precisely during those
times we canít excel and actually come up with brand new
K: Mm hm.
M: And thatís why Iím saying we should go into places of
relative safety and create little economies and small societies
that teach new ways of living, because the rest will simply fade
So as these spiritual teachers talk about the great awakening,
etc., and the prophecy people talk about all the negativity,
both is actually correct. Because you have then this
the dimension going on. So you have... You will live
side-by-side with societies that are completely crazy and going
on their way out of history over the next, say 10, 20 years,
K: Of people who refuse to change, right?
M: Yes. Thatís right.
K: Because itís when you resist change that you are damaged the
most, in a sense.
K: Whereas if you look forward to change and you actually flow
with it and create along with the change, then thatís where you
ride out the change in sort of a better space, energetically.
M: Thatís right. Yes.
K: So, itís kind of, thatís what weíre looking forward to. Weíre
looking forward to major changes coming fast and fairly furious,
especially 2010 and on.
M: Yes. Yes. I think, though, according to Boris, whom you have
met now, there is going to be something happening next year in
2009. I donít know really the nature of it. And, you know, we
canít really say, nor should we...
M: ...and I even think it just has to happen. Itís OK. Whatever
has to happen cosmically is for the better, for good reasons.
But there will be...
K: But there are many changes that are positive. In other words,
you need the destruction to destroy whatís already been set up
on the planet in order to create the new.
M: Actually, youíre right. You know, if it takes half the
population to pass on to another world, then thatís OK. Because
maybe the Earth needs a clean-out. That sounds maybe brutal, but
K: Or cavalier.
B: Thatís an extraordinary thing to say. I mean, there are
people listening to this...
M: Iím not going to beat around the bush. [Bill laughs] At this
time I think we have to be realistic.
K: Yes. Whatever you ... I mean, weíre here to have a
conversation with you, to hear what you feel, and you know, and
also weíre going to give you our feedback to how it sounds.
M: Yes, if the Earth needs to clean itself up of the parasitic
forces, then thatís what it takes. It doesnít have to be so, if
of course, overnight 7 billion people start realizing what weíre
talking about and start changing their ways of life, start
thinking in other ways, then all this wouldnít be needed and
probably there wouldnít be so many Earth changes.
I know this seems not to make sense, but I know this to be true
for myself. And I would like people to, like you, to look at
Wingmakers - and listen to the
interview by its creator,
James. Itís a two-hour interview that
just came out.
M: And he will take you through these things from his viewpoint
and then you can read Wingmakers and other things. But you will
see that what weíre talking about here... There is a point to
what weíre saying. And that there will be good coming out of
those seemingly bad changes.
B: Yes. Let me check my understanding of what I think youíre
saying here, because what I think youíre saying is ... What my
understanding was that James Lovelock was saying, who is the
the Gaia hypothesis or the Gaia metaphor, if you
like, was that the Earth is a living creature...
M: Absolutely. Yes.
B: ... which kind of has the human race on it now functioning as
a sort of uncontrolled parasite, with sort of uncontrolled
parasitic growth, and thereís something thatís out of balance.
And that what this organism is going to do is, itís going to try
and, you know, shake off the parasite at least to bring things
back into balance...
B: ...if it can. So youíre talking about a phase where things
would come back into balance.
B: And from a very, very high spiritual viewpoint youíre sort of
saying: Well you know what, there may be a phase here where a
lot of people are going to pass on because we canít sustain
these numbers on this planet. Is that kind of what youíre
M: Yes. Thatís right. Thatís well summarized. Yes.
K: But by the same token, thereís a sense of
This is where we have a choice in the matter as humanity, as, if
you will, the parasite which we should not be on the Earth.
Instead we should be living as, you know, the Native Americans
have said and the native peoples, is with the Earth instead of
K: But if we change our consciousness, if, you know, things like
our Futuretalk here will make enough people aware, where they
will wake other people up and begin to work together, taking our
consciousness, unifying it in such a way that we are working for
the positive, that lesser changes will be happening, less people
will have to pass through this incarnation on to the next, and
so on. Right?
M: Thatís right. Sheís right.
K: So itís actually a choice that we have. Itís still a choice,
as to how we rise through this to the future.
B: Yes. Thereís this wonderful book which youíve probably read,
The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight? [By Thom Hartmann.]
Did you hear about that?
B: Itís a wonderful metaphor. It refers... it has a double
meaning. ďThe last hours of ancient sunlightĒ refers to the loss
of the ancient tribal wisdom...
B: ...that the Native Americans knew, that
the shamans know,
that the Mayans knew. That the
aborigines in Australia still
And also, interestingly enough, ďthe last hours of ancient
sunlightĒ is the end of the oil. The ancient sunlight, you see.
And the, the premise in that book is that in order to get back
to balance we have to rediscover the ancient knowledge and
wisdom that our forefathers had.
For instance, thereís this wonderful little story that is told,
you know, that the, ah, Native American tribes, theyíd war with
each other all the time, but theyíd never wipe each other out
completely because then they wouldnít have anyone else to fight,
so they had to leave some ... [laughs] Itís the same kind of
principle. That sounds funny, but actually...
K: Well, hopefully weíre going to find some better lessons than
that. I mean, you know, than how many we need to wipe out...
K: ...and how many we need to keep alive.
B: But the point is, itís a beautiful piece of wisdom because
what they ... because even their enemies were a resource that
needed to be renewable. Itís like they knew that they had to
allow the way that their society functioned in the same way for
their children, you know. And the same applies to the buffalo.
You donít kill them all.
B: Otherwise the next generationís going to be living in a
completely different way. And thatís the kind of wisdom that
weíve forgotten here.
M: Thatís right. Thatís right.
K: I think weíre going to actually be moving into tribal
societies in a sense, smaller, you know, units.
M: Thatís exactly correct. Thatís what I use in my book --
tribal societies. Thatís the future of our humanity. Weíll begin
again, somehow from scratch, new, but still with very advanced
technologies. Both is possible. And then the whole of humanity
is a more advanced humanity.
James of the Wingmakers says he believes that 10 to 12 million
people will come through these changes in a very advanced, aware
manner, and that if we have 10, 12 million around the globe, we
can start again and go much further. And I agree with him.
K: You said 10 to 12 million will make it through. And Iím just
wondering, how many are there now? Because I donít know.
M: Yes. Well, what he means, and I agree with him, is that if we
have 10 to 12 million advanced people, spiritually, mentally,
saying advanced, seeing what this is about and moving on and
learning... because we all have to learn; weíre all challenged
every day to move on... that then we will go to very good
positive changes which are beautiful, where there is a brilliant
future for mankind. And I feel the same.
And we will see this happen, letís say, around 2020 to 2050.
During that time. Itís just that until 2020 we have quite some
cleanup going on.
So what he means by this... Or letís put it this way: The way I
see it is, if half the population is no longer here, but out of
that other half we have 10, 12 million advanced ones, then we
can restart. And I feel thatís whatís going to happen.
We donít have those 10 million today. We have very few, about,
say, that we are maybe a minority of a few hundred around the
world will have a clue. Really.
M: I mean, I know maybe 20 that I could say: OK those are
friends that I could rely on and we could move the world in a
M: There arenít so many who really know. And those few, youíve
met them. Those are the few that youíve actually met. And
thereís a reason why youíve met them, you see?
B: Iíd actually say thereís probably a few tens-of-thousands,
but it might not be 10 million, you know. I mean, itís a small
M: Yes. For now. But the idea is that it grows, you see.
B: Yes. Did you listen to our interview with George Green?
M: Absolutely. Yes. I listened to all of your interviews.
B: [laughs] In your...OK. Is this connected with what
Green refers to as ďthe ground crewĒ?
M: What we just spoke about? The ten thousand or 10 million
people, you mean?
M: Iím not sure where he takes it from. I know that he has... I
donít know what kind of guidance of ET kind. I know itís
extraterrestrial, but I donít know if itís Nordic. Mine is more
in line with the Nordic-type line of thought, which is a
Pleiadian, which are Nordics.
M: I agree. Thatís the same. Then we are on the same page.
Thatís what we mean, yes.
B: My understanding of what he means is that thereís a
relatively small group of people. I mean, it may be, you know,
hundreds of thousands or millions, ideally, but itís still a
very tiny proportion of the human race...
B: ... who are aware enough and alert enough and prepared enough
to be able to ride through the storm.
B: And start things again if necessary.
M: Yes. And also educate the others.
M: You see, one thing I heard in this interview with James...
his webmaster who interviews him, Mark Hempel, I believe is his
M: He said the most googled phrase in China, or one of the most
googled phrases in Google China is: Why are we here?
B: [surprised] Really?
M: What are we doing here? Why are we on this Earth? See, in the
United States or in our western world, the most googled word
would be some rock star or movie star name, whatever. In China
people are actually asking [Bill laughs] What are we doing here?
So, you see, it is going on. Of course there is a huge
groundswell of awareness. Itís there. Iím just saying that I
know maybe of 200 people that I could say: OK theyíre going to
be the future leaders. And those are people like Boris or like
Dan Burisch in his thought, or
John Lear, these kinds of people
that you interview, who are people who share what they know and
for good reason.
K: Mm hm.
B: Theyíre thinking out of the box. Theyíre got the courage to
say what they know or what they feel. Theyíre not going to be
put down by any criticism.
B: This is what youíre talking about.
B: Yes. Yes, so theyíre carrying the torch in a way.
M: Yes. It takes courage.
K: You mean theyíre truth-tellers. People that are risking
themselves, who put themselves out there to tell the truth, are
by nature going to be leaders of, sort of, the world going
M: Yes. I mean by ďleaders,Ē thought leaders, people who bring
new ideas into this world. People like
Christ or Krishnamurti. These types of people. Although Krishnamurti said
precisely we donít want leaders because we donít want followers.
And is say the same in my book Ė you donít have to follow any
gurus, any religions. All that is toast and history anyway.
M: Through these changes this whole thinking will have to be
Iím speaking of leaders in terms of creators, co-creators.
People who lead the way in the ways we should be looking at the
world and at our life.
B: Inspirational thinkers.
B: Uh huh.
K: Sort of at the forefront, in a sense. The first wave of
whatís coming. Because in a sense weíre all leaders. As we go
forward, thatís actually going to be a trait thatís required to
sort of make it through the next few, you know, the next several
M: Thatís right. Each one has to be his or her own leader. Yes.
K: They also have to be focused on their inner... I mean, isnít
there a sense that you canít actually go and look in a book and
say: Oh this is going to be a safe place and x y z and go there.
Itís actually where you must listen to what your inner
K: ...sends to you. Because itís going to be safe for you where
youíre actually pulled magnetically to be and with the people
that youíre meant to be with. If youíre going against the grain
and just following some external information, this is not going
to lead you actually to make it through in the best place,
physically or spiritually.
M: Thatís right.
B: So youíre saying itís not so much about a whole checklist of
information. Itís about the attitude.
K: Itís your inner... really listening. I mean, I think thatís
something James also talks about.
K: Which is, itís necessary to listen in to your own inner
guidance. Itís not listening out to what other people are saying
so much as going inside and getting the information and knowing
how it resonates with you. If somebody tells you something or
you hear something, then taking it inside and actually seeing
how it resonates with you, with your heart, and how youíre able
to focus it.
M: I agree. I agree. Itís not about checklists. And this is why
I also refuse - categorically - even with clients, to tell them
where to go.
M: Because thatís way too much responsibility on me and why
should I do that.
B: So itís not like a formula.
M: No. There is no such thing as a formula. You know, there are
people who will make it well even in the cities. Well, because
maybe theyíre meant to be there as healers or teachers, or for
whatever reason. You know, each one has his or her own karma or
K: Or thereís serendipity.
M: Yes. You have to listen to this inside, as you said. Thatís
an inner stance you have to take. So you cannot take the advice
from outside. That is why I am reticent of saying to people: Do
this, do that, donít do this, or donít do that, because itís
just not right. I shouldnít be in the position to give that kind
of advice. Although I know what is OK and not OK to do, I want
people to figure that out for themselves.
K: But youíre not a person who thinks that war... that weíre
actually headed for World War III or IV, depending on your
perspective of all of that. War with Iran, for example. Thatís
not where you think weíre going?
M: [hesitates] Um ... yes and no. Itís a different kind of war.
Yes there will be war. The short answer is yes, weíre going
to... See, we are at war, you know.
The future is the now extended and so I think there will be
conflict between the US and China. Itís heating up over the
Tibet issue, really, unseen. And there is conflict going to be
taking place between India and Pakistan, the US and Pakistan.
When I say US, I donít mean the American people. I mean, of
course, the secret government behind the government. Because the
actual government doesnít even have a clue why they are doing
what theyíre doing. Theyíre just being whispered to by the gray
command: Do this. Hit that and take that out.
K: And by gray command, you mean ďthe graysĒ?
M: I mean
the gray ETs. Well, theyíre not actually ETs. I mean
the clones. Yes, the grays.
B: Mm hm.
M: And so the answer is yes, there will be wars. And I donít
want, really, to predict ďThis one takes this one outĒ and so
on. There will not be nuclear strikes of any huge kind. I do not
see that happening. And I donít think itís a good idea to even
put these thoughts out.
M: I believe strongly that there are other forces who can
actually disable the classic nuclear strikes.
M: There will be, however, and there are ongoing, so-called
ďmini nukesĒ and neutron bombs and stuff like that. So there is
a very ugly side to the conflict. And thatís going to involve
China, the US, India, Pakistan, and maybe Iran to some degree.
M: I think that Iran is taking a lead from the Russians, trying
to behave and to just steady the situation. So, so far...
K: Ah, thatís very interesting, very positive.
M: ...they have not provoked into what they could have been
provoked, you see. So I feel we have avoided some of the worst
things, but there is obviously more to come.
In these years I showed you by astrology, you see very clearly
that from the middle of 2010 to the beginning of 2011 is the
probably most - hottest zone - where conflict will get started.
M: Although itís actually not right to say this, what I just
said. Itís just... realistically, so that it would be safer to
assume there is going to be conflict and we make preparations
M: Now, this will start, of course, over resources Ė water.
Economic. This is all economic. Itís an economic war.
B: Mm hm.
M: And itís happening unseen already.
K: Thatís an interesting point. OK.
M: You know? So if you see in Burma, for instance, the 6th
largest rice producer has just been taken out...
B: ... just been taken out ...
M: ...that means less food, more food riots, more social
problems coming to the west, etc. And all these leads to more
conflict. Unfortunately thatís just a cycle in which we are in,
still, for another I believe, I guess, 7 to 10 years, letís say
up to 2020 when Saturn-Pluto click in position in Capricorn.
Thatís when things will begin to get better. Really, strictly,
thatís the zone. So weíre looking at 10, 12 years of tumultuous
changes, through which we can, however, come to amazing new
beginnings. We just have to be fearless and brave about this.
B: I mean, this is really big picture thinking. I donít know of
many people who are thinking about 2020. Most peopleís thinking
kind of stops at 2020. [laughter] I mean, a lot of people Iíve
been speaking to, they donít even know whatís going to happen
next month, you know. So this is really...
M: Yes, youíre right. We should stay in the now. Iím just giving
you this bigger picture because Kerry asked about wars..
M: And thatís where this is going..
K: Well youíre an astrologer and this is your natural, youíve
K: ...this book. You know,
Light-Seeds is your current
compilation. Youíve got
Zen of Stars ...
M: Yes. Light-Seeds is in a way the collected works. Itís
Stars beefed up, advanced, updated together with ForeSeen, which
is kind of a science fiction approach to a
reality in which you star, by the way, you two.
K: [laughs] Your Project Camelot.
M: Project Camelot is in Light-Seeds and shows in the future
what will be done. So itís not a compilation. Itís an advanced,
more up-to-date version of what I feel, based on the knowing
that I have now, in May of 2008, of what is most likely to
M: So as an astrologer I donít just look at now, 2008. I want to
look at what happens, say 2050, 2080, because to me that is of
interest. I understand that for others this is maybe not so
interesting. But itís only by looking at the bigger moves that
you can calculate backwards and kind of see where weíre at in
this navigation through time/space.
K: Youíre going to see the arc of change.
K: And growth, hopefully.
M: Yes. And for this you can only look at the outer planets.
Honestly, you can only look at Neptune and Pluto. Those two show
you clearly where the big evolution of mankindís thought process
is at. And itís with that that I can say where we are headed to.
K: Well, what about
M: To me personally, honestly? [laughs]
M: I think itís a complete bullshit. Sorry to say.
K: No. No apology necessary.
M: I think
the Vatican... I know they want ...
K: Itís actually a good thing.
M: They want their Planet X. They want it so bad.
M: But itís not going to happen.
B: You think itís a distraction?
M: Itís an invention, is what it is.
B: An invention.
M: Itís an invention, I believe, by the Vatican, which in turn
is controlled by the reptilian, literally underground. The
Vatican sits on a huge space and they are insane and they come
up with these stories.
Now there is a reason why there are
these South Pole operations
going on, but I donít believe itís that they are looking for
Planet X. There may be orbiting, like asteroids, stuff like
that. But, you know, we would know that. The European Space
Agency would actually say such things. They are more advanced in
that sense than NASA is or other space agencies, that there is
no ďbodyĒ coming to hit the Earth. That is just complete
M: What will be in Planet X is a metaphor or sort of a code
name. What will take place, in my opinion, and IS taking place,
is a shift of the magnetics. And this may press, somehow, on the
atmosphere. To say this in a stupid way, in a simple way, itís
pushing and pulling on the outer layers of the Earth. Thatís my
And the whole of the planetary system, our solar system, is
moving, letís say, through a zone, an inter-dimensional,
hyper-dimensional switching of energies. Itís difficult to get
the right words here for me. But you see where Iím getting to.
Itís a change of energies through which weíre moving. And
whatever that it is, that new energy, moves through us. So we
are actually now 2008, 2009, and 2010, coming into the
M: I call this like this - stepping through the doorway. And the
thing, this new consciousness, comes through us and we go
through it. And thatís a process. And that doesnít happen on one
M: Thatís a thing that takes, I believe, 10, 20 years, in
M: So itís a process, you know.
B: Thatís one of the most intelligent presentations of this that
Iíve heard, actually. Basically itís saying that weíre moving
B: The Earth is moving through this.
M: Of course.
B: Itís going to be a rough ride for the Earth and for us.
B: But all of us, including the Earth, are going to make it
through, but there are going to be changes because thatís what
happens in a time of transition.
B: And itís nothing to do with Planet X. Itís more to do with
regions of space which the whole...
B: I mean, this does fit with what weíre talking...
M: And the thing we were talking, the crystals.
M: Everything is energy. OK? And so everything has
consciousness. I mean, these dust molecules, everything has
innate consciousness. And so when all this goes through a
magnetic shift... And this has happened before and will happen
again. Those are just cycles, ten-thousand-year cycles.
When that happens, the populations of Earth... and other
planets, right? We know
there are populations on other planets.
So all of us, all beings, including the ETs, the so-called ETs,
Nordics, everybody, is going through this challenge or through
And this is... I think this is an amazing time to be around.
Start of conversation
Bill Ryan: Iím going to challenge you just a little bit
here. Because, once again, I want to represent the questions
that we get coming at us every week and every day.
And we get people saying, you know: Now Iíve listened to what
youíre saying, Iím even more frightened. [Bill and Michael
laugh] OK? And I know that you donít want to give me a formula,
but youíve got to give me some direction. Youíve got to give me
Youíre telling me I should be aware and flexible.
OK. Iím aware and flexible. Now what do I do?
OK? Can you be more specific, without putting people into a
Michael St. Clair: Yes.
B: I know thereís a fine line to draw here.
M: OK. Iím glad that at least you see my dilemma here.
M: Thank you. Because, seriously, I have clients, they ask me,
and non-clients who then become clients, ask me exactly these
questions that they ask you. And itís really hard, you know. Am
I going to say to them: Oh, leave New York, donít be in
California. Do this. Do that.
I mean, certain things are just obvious. Youíre not going to
wait it out in Florida when you know that thereís just going to
be rising seawater levels. Thatís simple stuff.
But I can be much more specific in the sense of, yes, I can say
to people how you should prepare a place, in the sense of the
logistics that are involved, what you need to have -- a new
economy going, that you have to have a healer, a teacher,
alternative medicine people, scientists, these types of things.
And I can go into great lengths of detail of saying...
B: People who know how to grow things and people who know how to
mend a generator thatís broken.
B: Just hands-on skills.
M: Yes. OK, on the hands-on part, that... to me, Iím like
useless. [Bill and Michael laugh] I can barely change a Jeep
tire, OK? It was a joke in the military. They said: Donít give
him anything because he will wreck it. [Bill laughs] And to
think Iím a leader, authority in a sense, if I say to people to
think about what are you going to do when this happens.
I come up with crazy solution ideas which then other experts who
know about it will then do. So what I do typically with
clients... They come to me because they see a situation and say:
What do you have to say? So I say: Well, try this out. Have you
thought of that?
And that is sort of a way of... I like to say I turn the
ignition key on in the brain, in the mind of my clients, or
people, and then they run with it and they do something.
So the book is a whole collection of inspirations, ideas, and
stuff that Iíve researched and had over 20, 40 years since Iím a
kid really, stuff that Iíve thought should be changed in the way
we live. For the, you know, the planet, we have to change the
way we live. Thatís what itís about.
So to answer your question now, yes, I can say a lot more in
detail about the economy.
Like I said, you must not keep your money in the banks. Thatís
The dollar will go down. You need to look for another currency.
I still feel that the Swiss franc will be OK for a while. The
Euro will do a little better for a little while, then it will
also get hammered.
You have to be in the metals. You have to find your commodities.
You need to be in gold and in silver, by which I mean
possession of gold and silver and not stocks or shares.
M: So in other words I can, to put it clearly to you, I can
John Lear told you. I think his interview was the
best. I mean you two ... I have to say without giving you false
flattery or stuff ... you are the most advanced investigative
researchers. And John Lear said many things that I can agree
with. So did
George Green. As to economics, I can certainly
confirm his viewpoints.
Also Ralph Ring and quite a few of your interviews that are so
advanced that I would think that people need to see them, spend
time, invest the time of their own education, to look at your
work and spend the 50, 60, 70 hours it takes to take it all in.
As I did. For preparing for this interview I actually watched
all your interviews again. So I can say Iíve watched them all
twice at the very least.
M: And this time is well spent. I think people should really
take it in. And then from there, to answer your question, then
start their own process of thinking.
OK. So the answer: In some ways, there is nothing to be fearful
of. You have to be intelligent in the sense of you need to know
certain things are going to happen.
And I then always say that seeing this future is its own right
action. Seeing is its own action. When you see whatís going on,
you will be intelligent enough to come up with your own
solutions, which are different from one situation to another
situation. So one human being will, based on the same knowledge,
do one thing and another will do something else. This is why I
canít give blanket advice. It just doesnít work like this. Do
B: Hm. Yes.
M: Iím not trying to avoid your question. OK?
B: But youíre saying the most important thing is the people.
Youíre saying that one crazy person ... excuse the generality...
in a community... It doesnít matter what technology, what
preparation, what food stocks youíve got. They can wreck
B: This is kind of what youíre saying.
M: Yes. Well, if itís just one in a community of, say, 200
people, they can isolate that person or put that person to some
other use or deal with it in some way. But as soon as you have a
few rotten apples who think the wrong way or start dysfunctional
behavior, the whole place falls apart.
And that has to do with the energetics. Iím not just speaking
just of the psychological level of interaction. But it creates
conflict for sure, due to whatever bad emotions that are going
on. Itís the energetics.
You really want people who are... I donít mean ďof the same mind
and think the same way.Ē Thatís not what I mean. But who
cooperate. You understand? The future, the economy, the thinking
of the new human, the new mankind, the new human beings, is
about cooperation, sharing economies, sharing knowledge.
K: Right. As opposed to competition.
M: Yes. Thatís right.
K: Itís actually a different mode of being.
M: A different mode to avoid all conflicts. Yes.
B: Now, earlier on today when we were talking over lunch, you
mentioned something which I didnít quite understand. You were
talking about ďsafe space hunters.Ē
M: Oh yes. [laughs]
B: Whatís a ďsafe space hunterĒ? And whatís wrong with a ďsafe
M: Well since I put this book out and this notion of... you know
guys think itís looming to maybe want to find some nicer place
to live and get organized... it has created what I call ďsafe
spaceĒ or ďsafe place hunters.Ē
Itís becoming a trend that people are waking up, so-called,
becoming more aware, and they just think, you know, in the
logical usual way of thinking: OK I need to go find a safe
place. Let me go now, figure this out. And then they contact me
or others, you or other experts, and say: Hey, can you tell me
where in Canada I should go? Where in... wherever. And they
expect me then to say: Here. Use my phone list, you know.
Itís just not going to work like that. But whatís going to
happen as people are becoming more and more fearful and more
stuff like China, Burma, and Chile will happen, more people will
flip out, basically speaking, and will say: OK we need to go
find a safe place. Thatís what I mean by ďsafe place hunters.Ē
M: Now, you have to be really careful about those people because
they come to the whole issue with a completely inadequate
mindset. And it doesnít matter if they come with money. I mean,
I can have a guy who comes to me and says: Hey, hereís 2 million
Euro. Can I get in on your setup that youíre doing?
So if itís not the right person, itís not a good thing to do.
B: Yes. Right.
M: But of course, you need funds first to get it going.
B: Yes. So youíre kind of saying, beware of people who are
trying to buy their way in to something.
M: Thatís what I mean also. Yes.
B: But theyíre not sort of, how can I say, spiritually and
psychologically equipped to contribute to a community...
B: ...in a way that adds value. Because every person coming in
should be adding value to the whole.
M: Thatís right. Thatís the notion. Thatís exactly it. They
come... everybody should come in with the... Yes, with the
contribution idea. There is this old French saying of the
Spanish Inn, which functions in the way that people bring food
and drinks and stuff to the inn and make it an inn with what
M: OK? So yes, they have to bring contributions in forms of
skills, knowledge, trading, barter, economy. Funds, of course.
Yes, you need resources.
B: Yes. Technical skills.
M: I have investment bankers and I welcome people who want to
come to me with the idea of funding certain projects or places.
And I will then sift through it and then pass them to you. And
to experts of mine who have actually asked me to say: Yes, we
are interested in doing this.
And so first and foremost we want to have resources to do it.
Because we need that. That can be land. That can be
technologies. But it has to be, certainly, also raw funds, or
M: And then we also want to have scientists with ideas,
patent-holders, people who have breakthrough technologies,
medical technologies. In other words, brilliant minds.
And they are all coming together through you, through what
youíre doing, by our effort, by the very effort of doing this,
thinking about it, speaking about it - bringing people
together. It is happening.
Several years ago it was kind of nowhere. Today, 2008, we are
advancing to this. And two years from now weíll be really
looking good. So I am very optimistic and confident about what
B: OK. And in there somewhere, just a little group of people you
havenít mentioned ... people who know how to grow things. I
donít know how to grow anything. [laughs]
M: Yes. I did mention sustainable living.
B: Did you? Iím sorry.
K: Yes. And absolutely, like organic farming. I mean, youíre
talking about kind of a movement, in a sense, to be able to be a
K: In other words, itís not just a community of people that are
then waiting for the trucks and the trains to arrive if these
things are down. If the grid is down, itís a sustainable
M: Thatís right. ThatĎs the most important thing. Yes, the new
communities will have to be able to grow their own food,
essentially. And I spoke to one. I have a friend. Him, I cannot
disclose who that is and where he lives. But he is an expert and
he showed me, in theory, what it entails. And itís a big
subject, OK? Thatís just one subject that alone is worth many
M: OK? So is alternative healing, energy healing, new teaching,
new children, the voices of this world, etc. I mean, itís a huge
subject. Thatís why the fat book. [laughs]
B: Right. So communications are something we spoke about, about
these backup systems in case... You know, itís like you would
need to have water on your... in this community, in case there
is no water coming out of the taps. You need to have a generator
in case thereís no electricity. You need to be able to
communicate in case the grid goes down.
K: What were you were talking about?
K: Youíve been talking about wireless ... what did you call
M: Ham radio. [Bill laughs]
K: Ham radio. Yes.
M: I was talking about ham radio.
B: [laughing] Heís talking about ham radio.
M: Yes. I was a military communications officer, actually, and
that is the most important thing. Heís right.
M: Without communications weíre toast. So then we are just
sitting ducks in the middle of...
Henry Deacon has been telling us about this as well, has been
encouraging us to do
ham radio, to learn it. And you must be...
if youíre an expert, right? Youíd be great.
M: Well I used to know but that was 25 years ago and now the
technologies are very different.
B: But this is still...
M: Ham radio will be going through changes.
B: Itís standard military training, how to use a radio.
M: Yes. Yes, so that every community needs to have that. Because
should the grid go down... I donít know for sure will it or will
it not go down. I donít even want to go there. But, just a
number of certain things are better dealt with on the checklist
to have prepared than not to have prepared, obviously.
And when you mentioned Deacon... Thatís something thatís really
of interest to me. And I wanted to ask you maybe... Iím sorry if
Iím interrupting the whole flow of the conversation.
K: No. Absolutely...
M: I know heís the one guy thatís not on camera, for good
reason. But I wanted to know if you could explain to me and to
the viewers... Iím interested in a summary, if thatís possible
at all, in a few sentences, what he told you. Because I know
that what he said is [Bill laughs] so out there that to me itís
interesting. The more out there it is, the more interested I am.
B: Right. [to Kerry] You want to start?
M: Iím sorry if I kind of cut the conversation.
K: Well, I mean, we have to say that heís a government insider
who worked for, you know, some very... Livermore Labs among
other things... and that, because of his position, he was in on
meetings that were planning things like eliminating large
portions of the population through, actually, viruses that would
be planted around the globe. Thatís one of the things he talks
B: Yes. I can probably run through the checklist, actually.
M: What Iím trying to say is, can you give sort of the grand
scale summary of what he knows?
B: OK. He knows a lot of stuff. His situation was different from
that of most specialists with a basis in science. Theyíre put in
one place, theyíre heavily compartmentalized, and then they
become a specialist in one particular area, in one particular
location, you know.
B: Now, Henry was different because he had a function in what,
in the civilian world, would be called project management.
B: So he got to work with teams of people as his function, to
help them work together, which is quite interesting, considering
what weíre talking about. And because that was so unusual in the
so-called ďblack world,Ē he found himself being placed in a
number of different locations with a number of different
And he was unusual, not unique, but unusual, because he got to
see a lot of different things and a lot of different places and
was able to connect dots. A lot of people who are in specialized
black projects donít get to see whatís happening in the room
next to them or the facility down the road or whatever.
B: And Henry knows a lot of stuff. And he told us a whole bunch
of stuff which is so unusual. You are quite right. Heís the most
remarkable whistleblower Iíve ever come across, whether we know
him or not.
So, one of the things that is sort of immediate imminent
importance is that he said that a number of years ago he was
made aware of a plan [with strong emphasis] Ė a PLAN Ė for a war
between China and America in 2008.
M: That sounds about right. Yes.
B: He told us that in August 2006.
B: So, now weíre kind of watching, you know.
B: He told us, just as Kerry said, that heíd been... heíd sat in
on meetings where population reduction was planned through the
release of stealth viruses, stealth pathogens.
B: He told us about 15 months ago that at the end of 2007 - in
other words weíve passed that line now - he said that from what
he knew, which may have been outdated, but from what he knew,
the Middle East would no longer be a safe place to be because of
the release of viruses. He couldnít swear that that was the
truth, you know, right now, because he says that things change
and things change. But based on what he knew, thatís what he was
briefed on at the time.
B: He knew about
911. He was part of the control team behind 911
that were controlling these planes that flew into the World
Trade Center. Real planes, not holograms.
M: Yes. OK. So there is slightly difference between John Learís
viewpoint, and mine, and his.
M: So OK. Go on.
B: He said that his best understanding, on the basis of the
technology which he was working with personally, and his
briefing, was that these were real planes remotely controlled
from thousands of miles away.
M: Makes sense. That is about the way I would see it. Yes.
B: And he said... However, he said that whatever it was that hit
the Pentagon was not a passenger plane. He said it was a small
M: Yes. Or a missile, probably.
B: Or something.
M: So he was... So who? All right. Just let me get this clear.
So where would the planning module, the ďbrainĒ behind that
operation, be situated, according to him? Would that be part of
what I call like this - the hidden part of the government that
the government itself doesnít even know exists? Because at least
the government itself has no clues.
B: Yes. It was in the location where he was working and he has
asked us not to say where.
M: I understand.
B: It wasnít New York City. It was a distance away.
M: Yes. That makes... Intuitively I think thatís right.
K: Itís run by ... I have to say itís run by various countries.
So what you have is a collection of Powers That Be behind the
M: And I think thatís right.
K: ... that are kind of orchestrating, is what heís always
M: Thatís right.
K: But they also have a plan that rolls out very much like
Iron Mountain Report, if youíre familiar with
M: Ah! Yes. You must read that report. Very important. Yes.
K: Thatís basically the outline for it. It will fall like
B: Henry said that many years ago he was in a military briefing
where his briefing officer came in, put the Iron Mountain Report
on the table and said: We are the wolves. The population, the
civilian population, are the sheep. Read this. And then weíll
continue to talk in the morning. Thatís my understanding.
B: And some people out there say the Iron Mountain Report is a
hoax and so on. He said he was given that to read by his
briefing officer because that was the plan.
B: Thatís what he said.
K: He talks about the grid going down, which is something Dan
Sherman was trained for.
K: If you remember our interview with
M: Yes. Absolutely.
K: To be an ET communicator between ETs and the people
positioned in power around the globe during this time.
K: Itís very interesting, the idea that you needed to
communicate with ETs in order to get through that time.
B: Yes. Thatís right. And one of the first things that Henry
told us back in August 2006, he said: Get ham radio. Youíre
going to need it.
M: Yes. OK. So thatís clear.
K: And he also said to get an old car that was not running on,
like, the new electronics.
B: Yes. All kinds of stuff.
M: Thatís true. Thatís right.
B: He said one of the threats, whether itís from the sun or from
some kind of military action or
HAARP activity or whatever, is
B: He told us how to shield our electronics. He said if youíve
got a choice of a vehicle, get an old diesel truck.
M: Thatís right.
B: Or an old diesel car with no electronic management system, no
spark plugs, you know. Itíll just go, like an old boat.
K: And he said to bury your computer. Like if these pulses come,
like bury it in the ground in cotton. [laughter] I donít know.
What is it?
B: Silver foil... ah...
M: Yes. Fold it in foil. I heard that too.
B: Aluminum foil wrapped up in cloth, you know, in your basement
or whatever. I mean, all of that kind of stuff.
M: But I take it, on your site you have his stuff written,
B: Yes. Itís all there. But the thing is... You see, I mean,
thereís a whole bunch of details.
M: Because Iím asking you now to go beyond what you have on the
site, if you see what I mean, if you are allowed to do that.
B: Yes. OK. I can go a little bit beyond what was on the site,
which is really quite interesting. Because this was about... I
canít remember now, 10 days ago or something, just after John
Learís interview came out... and I was in my apartment in
Switzerland, about 3 oíclock in the...
K: [cautioning] Donít give too much detail.
B: No, no, no. I was just about to close everything down and I
got an email. It was an email from Henry. An email from Henry.
And Henry said: Iím watching John Learís interview. This is good
M: It IS good stuff! [Kerry laughs]
B: We, you know, sometimes we get a bunch of emails from Henry.
And sometimes we can go a couple of months without hearing from
him. So I thought: Ah, Iíd better reply straight away Ďcause
heís there now in real time. And so I replied, saying: Iím
pleased youíre enjoying our interview. And then he got back ...
Anyway, to cut a long story short, he was watching John Learís
interview in real time.
M: The four hours, the whole thing.
B: The four hours, from beginning to end.
M: I did the same, actually.
B: And as he did so, every time he had a thought or a comment,
heíd send me an email. And I got... [laughing all around]
M: Well, thatís living in the now. Thatís good.
B: I ended up with 32 emails from the guy. And the bottom line
was that he said that 80% of what John Lear said was correct,
including some of the wilder things.
M: Yes, very good.
B: He didnít comment on the gravity on the Moon and the
atmosphere on the Moon. He didnít make any comment about that,
right or wrong.
He said that from his own experience he could not verify the
hologram theory [of planes hitting the World Trade Center on
911] because his own personal experience suggested otherwise.
But he was very keen not to trash what John was saying because
he knows that technology exists. He was saying: As far as I was
aware, these were real planes.
K: He also said life on Venus is true.
M: Fascinating. Adamskiís 1952 report that is...
B: I mean, he said a whole bunch of crazy... Basically he said
that everything else that John Lear said was absolutely right on
B: Which is amazing considering what he [John Lear] did say, you
M: Iím sorry to interrupt... Is he now still working there where
he was at, or is he out of that?
B: We cannot comment about that.
M: OK, sorry.
B: Thatís just not the kind of question...
M: No no no. I just meant to say, is his knowledge still totally
up to date?
K: Well, OK. I want to say here that this is the issue with
Henry and with whistleblowers in general that come from the
inside, which is - like
Hoagland said in our interview - there
are many layers to the onion and the lie is different at every
M: Thatís right. Yes.
K: So you donít know what level each whistleblower has had
exposure to, how high up they were able to get.
K: Now, Henry is not familiar with
MJ-12. He did not reach that
level of being in the know. However he was in meetings, as weíve
said, so he had a certain sophisticated level of knowing.
However he didnít go all the way up the chain.
M: This is what makes the two of you really the most advanced
team, because youíve collected it all and brought it together.
B: Well, yes ...
K: Weíre trying to centralize this knowledge base, to get it out
there to people so that they will really get the overview of
whatís going on and not just get these pieces that donít join
B: Because you have to put the pieces together.
M: Thatís the point.
B: One of the pieces that came together at a very early stage,
and which really made us sit up and take notice... because we
interviewed Dan Burisch back in the summer of 2006.
M: Yes. I remember.
B: We liked Dan, the story rang true to us. We immediately
struck up a friendship. We felt he was very credible. We spent a
long time with him. And we thought: You know what, this story is
crazy, but it just might be true.
Next thing we knew, we heard from Henry. He said: Yes, I can
confirm all this stuff.
B: Everything about the timelines, time travel, future humans,
the whole crazy thing. He said: I can confirm that. And heíd
never heard of Dan Burisch. He didnít get this stuff off the
internet. We had to say: This is who Dan Burisch is, you know.
And then the other thing was, just as Kerry said, Henry said:
But, you know what, Iíve never heard of Majestic. In all the
briefing documents and the briefings, that name was never
mentioned. He said: For sure there are groups behind the scenes
who are monitoring this and organizing this and facilitating
this and coordinating this, he said, but I never heard that
M: Yes. It may be called a different name...
K: Also ďthe second sun.Ē
M: The second sun?
K: That was a given.
M: Yes. OK.
K: It wasnít Planet X per se. It was sort of a different
M: Vulcan? Planet Vulcan maybe?
B: No. What he was referring to was a smaller part of the binary
M: OK. That makes sense. I agree with that.
B: And he said that he learned about that when he was working
for a classified project within
NOAA, the National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration, if Iíve got the name right. And so
he was able to confirm that.
B: And then thereís this whole other stuff. I mean, heís been to
Mars, [laughter] which is enough to make anyone ... I mean, you
K: In our video, Jumproom to Mars, we talk about that.
B: Jumproom. Yes. Thatís the whole conversation there.
K: So letís not go too much more in detail with that.
M: Yes, I know you have that covered. I only asked to be up to
B: But the most important thing, you see, I mean all of those
are details. You can drill down and itís an incredible story.
But the overview - which he has said to us many times - he said
the problem is that everything is happening in a big kind of
M: Thatís right.
B: Everythingís happening at once.
M: I agree with him.
B: Youíve got different factors happening. And the total effect
on the human race and the planet is going to be quite traumatic.
These are my words, not his.
K: And we get messages saying... In fact we got, like a year
ago, we were told about food riots. And at the time we didnít
put it on our web site.
B: We didnít believe it!
K: We just thought it was so outrageous...
B: We didnít believe it! We thought: If we publish all this
stuff about food riots, people are going to think that weíre
crazy. So we didnít publish it.
M: I know. It is happening. It is the truth. But I think -
thatís only my theory, now I donít have sources like you Ė but
this one is my own thinking. I feel that the so-called ďgray
powersĒ behind the actual secret government are sort of trying,
testing out, certain scenarios now. Thatís my opinion and I may
But I think theyíre testing out like what happens, like if you
hit China with an earthquake, if you do this to Burma, and do
this and this and this and that. And theyíre trying to see what
does this then add up to. Thatís my opinion. For now. At this
moment. But in about a year to two yearsí time, weíre outside
the test zone and into the real thing.
K: Interesting concept, yes.
M: Anyway, but I meant to say one thing after all this...
because it gets a little dark at times... and I can imagine the
viewers will say: Oh my god, this is really crazy stuff.
You have to know about all these subjects. Thatís my opinion
again, that you must not turn a blind eye to all this stuff that
weíre talking about. So in other words, it is time well spent to
learn, to watch all of your videos that you did. Thatís what Iím
saying to the viewers.
But on the other hand, you have to also know that you cannot go
too much with your energy into these so-called conspiracy
subjects. Theyíre not theories, by the way. They are conspiracy
truths. They are facts. But because when you give too much
energy, too much effort and time, into this type of dark stuff,
it then starts to pull you down on a vibrational level of fear.
This is a balance that you have to find. Itís difficult. I mean,
you... we know. People think we are experts at this.
And so you have to be kind of careful how you give your time and
your effort to these subjects. In essence what I am trying to
say is, you have to know whatís going on, and knowing it, you do
your own preparations.
K: Well, creating a positive future out of it is the idea.
M: Yes. Thatís it.
K: And what I would say is this ... Messages for the Ground
Crew, George Greenís book, and you can hear more about that on
our website if you listen to
his interview... but one of the
things it talks about it staying in the observer mode, which
relates to staying out of fear, being able to follow whatís
going on, be aware, know if a train is coming down the tracks
and youíve got to move your car.
But at the same time, sort of
being able to take it all in, see what resonates with you, and
get into almost a meditative state, whenever necessary.
And I think thatís something we can talk a little bit more
about, which is... Weíre talking about the practical, but I do
think the spiritual preparation is every bit as important for
the coming days. And I think you would agree with me.
M: Yes, it goes hand in hand. Yes. You canít do one without the
other. And the observer mode of what you were saying before,
with the analogy of the boat crew? Thatís something they
actually taught us, the young kids in the military, in the
This guy I worked with, he was a very young general, he said
just was you said. He said: Look, when the shit hits the fan -
in clear English - you have to stay calm because everybody else
is going to lose it. So thereís only going to be one guy who
will be able to say what the next solution is and thatís the guy
who can think clearly. And you can only think clearly when you
I know this sounds a little bit advanced and far-fetched, but
thatís the way it is. And thatís why we need level-headed people
in these times that are coming. There is no other way. This
actually is Zen at its best, you know.
K: Yes. Absolutely.
B: Going to that, to what we were saying about the boat and the
mountain. If I was choosing people to climb with or choosing
people to be on a boat with, you donít want people who are going
M: Yes. Really. Thatís disaster.
B: And in the military you donít want people in your platoon who
are going to panic. You want people who are going to stay clam,
make the correct judgments, consult other people, not jump to
conclusions, assess the situation, and then act.
B: And to do all that in a balanced way.
M: Thatís right. And in addition you want those people also to
have developed -- highly developed as much as is possible now Ė
this, what I call, psychic, this instinct, of being able to deal
with what I call the invisible world.
You see here around us right now... I can tell you right now
there are at least 5, 6, beings, high beings. There are two to
protect me, one of which is actually a reptilian who is on the
new side trying to help out. [to Kerry] You have one or two. [to
Bill] You have an older very, very ancient, like a Taoist master
being behind you.
But you can see stuff in a ... and this is going to become more
and more the case over the next years ... that people will be
able, sort of out of the side of their eyes or with the third
eye, to actually detect the presence of this other unseen world
and go into contact with that and be able somehow ...and I have
a lack of words even in the book for that ... via telepathy or
somehow, establish a ďconsciousness dialogue.Ē
So what I am saying is, in addition to all that you said with
the boat crew and the mountain crew, and then do that with the
knowing that weíre surrounded by beings who can help us.
K: Right. Thatís true.
M: And we have to advance that gift. Now, a lot of people may
think: OK, St. Clairís gone insane, [Bill laughs] but I want to
show you something, and you can show it in your thing.
[holding above photo] This picture is showing a landscape that was
photographed two years ago in China. I donít know, I forgot
where exactly. Itís on
my website anyway. And I havenít taken
the initial picture. I should show you another one.
Itís a landscape that shows basically a seascape, sea and just a
normal edge of coastline with trees and landscape and basically
nothing on it. OK?
B: Mm hm.
M: This photo is shot by at least hundreds, if not thousands, of
people. This is known. OK? Iím just saying this as an
introduction to be clear what weíre looking at.
B: Mm hm.
M: Superimposed, what you see, is obviously a city. Weíre not
sure if the cityís ancient...
K: Oh wonderful. Oh, thatís great.
M: ... or if it is future. OK? So here comes our time travel
M: But clearly we see. And then of course the media try to
falsify and say itís a mirage, just mirage effects due to the
weather and stuff. It is not. In my opinion this shows very
clearly the, um...
M: The alternate... yes, overlapped reality. In other words,
that at the same time, in the same space, exists another
reality, superimposed on ours.
M: And this photo is in this sense... Oddly enough by the way...
M: ...was taken and came out in China right about the same day
the first book came out, which was by itself a sign or
validation-type symbol to say, you know, this other world, the
unseen world, the other dimensions, all that, it does exist.
K: And this is what they mean when they say esoterically that
ďthe veil is thinningĒ between the worlds.
M: Yes. I always try to make things physically clear when I can.
Because there is a lot of wordage and verbiage and just jargon
of the spiritualists, and I like to show things just plain.
B: Thatís incredible.
K: But I think people will agree. People are writing to us every
day telling us of how this is impacting their own lives...
K: ...how they are having, you know, visitations. They are
seeing things before they happen. Theyíre having all kinds of
telepathic and clairaudient at times. Itís really interesting
how this is going on. And thereís a speeding-up quality about
B: Yes. We could fill a 500-page book just listing peoplesí
psychic experiences that they have reported to us. Personal
M: And that they work together, as we do, like we obviously work
together on another level too, you and I.
K: Mm hm.
M: I mean, you know that sometimes I donít need to say it by
email, you know, and I hear it from you too at times without the
words, saying, you know: Be careful, donít mess up.
So what Iím trying to say is... so when we have all these skills
that we discussed and add to this this whole psychic warrior
skill, the Zen master, peaceful warrior type engagement, then we
really become effective and then become like... really
efficient... for the times ahead.
K: Yes. I think that we would have to say also... Prepare. I
call it, you know, preparing your light body.
K: This is every bit as important. And meditation is a really
important aspect of this.
And through meditation and what happens as you join up the
chakras and you do prepare your light body, what you want on
your team, what you want in your groups and your tribes, are
people like this.
You want shamans. You want a craftsman, you want a person who
can do these hands-on, grow food, but you also want people -
all of these people - to have these activated centers so that
they can be better able to withstand and change with the coming
vibrations that the Earth is going through.
M: But people have been, particularly in these fearful times,
the tendency to say: Oh, which guy should I follow? What should
I think like? Etcetera. Thatís of course a trap not to go into.
B: Of course. They want someone should tell you what to do.
B: And for the new times, youíre saying donít let anyone tell
you what to do.
M: No, the new times and after that.
K: Iíd like to say that thereís also protection that has to go
on. Because there are positive ETs and there are negative ETs.
There are positive entities and negative entities.
So opening up and getting guidance outside yourself can... You
know, itís a double-edged sword and, you know, thereís no two
ways about it. You do need to be discerning as to what youíre
listening to. Is it a positive? And thatís a road you have to
pick, if that is a spiritual journey.
And we canít tell you, you know, what youíre communicating with
and whether thatís a positive entity or not. Youíre going to
have to determine that for yourself. But itís a very important
aspect of this. Because during these times there are many false
prophets coming forward.
M: You bet.
K: Sovereignty. You know, that really seems to be a key word.
M: Yes, itís all about sovereignty.
K: Itís sovereignty of the Earth, in other words, to create its
own destiny, regardless of all the ET influences that are
impacting it right now and the negative influences, but to find
its own way in a positive growth and evolution.
But at the same time thereís personal sovereignty. And this is
really an important key thing. In other words... Know that you,
every single human, has within them this incredible power, this
incredible gift, you know, to actually be so much greater than
you are now.
That your Higher Self is actually somewhere out
there for you to connect with, and god, and beyond. So you know
itís like ...
M:. Thatís right. Yes. Thatís well said because you have only
yourself that you can depend on, to put it bluntly.
B: What I want to know... And this is a conversation we have not
have before this. Because Iím really fas... Youíve got some
M: Yes. These are, here,
sea-level maps showing what happens
when so much water...
B: Wow. OK.
M: ...rises and how the maps look like. And Iím not talking now
about Scallion maps and all these, like,
bizarre maps, because
Iím not for or against what his theories are.
This is very simply a
Google-type map situation that says: OK,
if you add twenty meters of water, a hundred meters of water,
etcetera, then thatís the picture you see emerging.
B: Then youíre just adding... Ah, got it. Yes, yes, yes.
M: OK. But what I want to say about these sea maps, whatís
important is, that we donít know how water really will react.
water is magnetic. And we donít know. No one can
foretell with absolutely certainly how the future Earth
landscape will look like. I have a feeling that there will even
be landmasses coming out somewhere. There could be lakes
Iím just saying this to illustrate that we really donít know
with absolute certainty where a safe place is. That everything
adds up to an enormous crescendo of outside forces that are just
simply going to change the landscape of whatís given as an
K: Outside forces, but also maybe pushed along by The Powers
That Be in their games that theyíre playing... because they do
have an agenda.
The illuminati has an agenda. Theyíre working up to... They
are working towards an Armageddon scenario that has to do with
eliminating population, following, like, the Bible as their
script, if you will.
K: Such that theyíre actually planning for events that will look
a certain way.
K: So that people will buy into them.
M: Yes, so that their prophecies get fulfilled.
K: And they are pushing things along, creating wars, creating
more chaos in the Middle East. This is part of the plan.
K: So that, you know...
M: But I would say they will crash and burn themselves because
clearly they are on a misguided path. Thatís the kind way to
And James Wingmaker says we can actually only give them
compassion. We find this a little hard [laughs] to think we
should give them compassion and love, but it is right. What else
can we give them?
But they will not get their plans through in that way because
the forces of which I am talking about, which are the higher
being forces and nature itself, the cosmos itself, will take
care of this in its own way.
K: There is some dark stuff at work there. But whatís most
important is emphasizing and concentrating on the positive in
what you can do to create the future.
M: Yes. We are co-creators. Thatís what itís about. Thatís the
whole reason why weíre here. If we were to say to the Chinese
who put into Google why weíre here, thatís it.
This is a co-creation experiment and these years ahead are the
most amazing time, actually, of all of humanity. Because as you
said in one of your written statements, weíre going from the
humanity we have, to this better version of the new humanity.
Thatís whatís going on. This is fascinating actually. This is
K: I think that thatís the best explanation for why weíre here.
I think that that needs to be repeated because I think itís
really important. This is a co-creativity experiment in which...
Thatís why weíre here and what weíre doing. Weíre actually here
to find out just what incredible creators we are -- each and
every one of us.
B: Thereís a wonderful movie with Jeff Bridges called Starman.
And one of the beautiful lines in there that Iíve never
forgotten is... and this is the ďstarmanĒ talking, talking to a
human who he teams up with... saying: The thing I love about you
is that when things are at their worst, then you are at your
M: Yes. Thatís right.
B: Itís a wonderful thought to end up with [laughs].
K: Well letís hope thatís where we are.
M: Thank you for everything youíre doing. This is great what
K: Well, and thank you. And thank you for joining us, Michael
B: It wonít be the last time [laughs].
M: Weíll see if thatís true [laughing].
And this is... I think this is an amazing time to be around.