Start of Interview
Kerry Cassidy (KC): This is
Kerry Cassidy and Bill Ryan, and weíre with Project Camelot. Weíre here
on Thursday, February 12, 2009, and weíve got Peter Levenda. He is a
wonderful researcher and author. Heís very well known for his book,
Sinister Forces, which apparently is a three-book series. Also for his
previous book called Unholy Alliance, delving into the background of the
Peter, I just want to say hello. Thank you so much for taking the time
with us today. I have to say I am incredibly impressed by your writing
style as well as your honesty as a researcher in the way that you write.
You actually remind me a little bit of Richard Dolan, and I think you
know who he is because you cite him a couple of times in your work.
Peter Levenda (PL): Certainly. And thank you, thank you
very much for the introduction. Iím very happy to be part of this.
KC: Great. So what we wanted to do is give the listener basically
a background on where you come from, how you come at this material,
because I think thatís really important - the fact that it dovetails
with a lot of what
Richard Hoagland, Jim Marrs, Joseph Farrell, and
others are delving into, but may even have pre-dated some of their work
and their realizations in this area.
And weíre talking about how the Nazis, how mind control, and how... the
direction Americaís going and why we might be going in a certain
direction, and what the underpinning occult significance is of all that.
And I think your background is just really stellar in this regard. So
please just go from here and tell us where you come from and where
youíve been going with all of this.
PL: Well, Iíll try. I tried, back in the 1970s, during the Watergate
era, to write a book that was going to explore the relationship between
religion and politics, which is a nexus thatís always fascinated me. We
tend in the United States to think of them as two separate entities.
But during Watergate I began to see a lot of the same personalities crop
up that we had run across during, oh, the Kennedy assassinations and all
of that, and I started to see deeper and deeper parallels.
So there was a book that came out in 1960, long before Watergate, called
The Morning of the Magicians. It was written by two Frenchman,
and Bergier, and it talked a great deal in there about a Nazi/occult
connection, but it was not documented at all. And I thought: That would
make a great chapter [Kerry laughs] in the book that I was planning. Let
me write something about the Nazis and religion, or Nazis and occultism
And I went down to the National Archives in Washington, DC. This was
right at the height of Watergate. Nixon was still in power. He was about
to leave. It was a month or two before he left, so the whole thing was
at fever pitch in Washington.
But, oblivious to that in a sense, I was at the National Archives
looking at captured German documents. As I was in the National Archives,
the archivist there, a very famous archivist - anyone who studied the
Nazis back in the í70s and í80s would have known about Dr. Wolfe - when
he found out what I was trying to do, he suggested that I look at the
records of an organization called the SS Ahnenerbe, which was actually a
division of the SS that was specifically concerned with occult and
mystical research. I was stunned.
He led me to the microfilm rolls. I started going through the machines.
And here I realized - my jaw dropped - I was looking at the actual
documentation of a full-fledged Nazi program to investigate occultism.
Other authors had talked about a Nazi/occult connection. The book,
Morning of the Magicians, talked about it at length, but there was no
documentation at all. And some of the other books that had come out at
that time, for instance, The Spear of Destiny, and some of the others,
talked extensively about this but there was no documentation.
So it seemed like speculation until suddenly Iím staring at all the
documents - page after page after page of research in Tibet, Tibet
expeditions. There was research to find the Holy Grail. There was all
sorts of bizarre SS programs that were being financed heavily by the
Nazis during World War Two.
So it got me thinking that maybe there is a lot of documentation in the
world. Maybe you can find evidence of all of this without having to
speculate too much. So the Nazi documentation got me very excited.
I lived in New York City at the time. Iím from New York City. I was
talking to a lot of friends of mine who had their roots in Latin America
and South America. I read a book by Ladislas Farago called
which is about the survival of war criminals, Nazi war criminals, in
And I came across the mentioning of a weird establishment in Chile
called Colonia Dignidad the Colony of Righteousness. This was supposed
to be a kind of Nazi safe-house which was also a weird religious group,
high up in the Andes Mountains. And I thought: This is just too good to
So here not only do I have the documentation from World War Two, but now
I have a real live Nazi sanctuary in South America which is also a
religious operation, which is exactly what I was writing about.
So I decided to go to Chile
- this was in 1979 - and see this place
for myself. This was during the time of the Pinochet dictatorship. There
was martial law in the country, but I managed to make my way down to a
small town halfway down the coast of Chile called Parral. And close to
this small town is the colony, Colonia Dignidad.
I managed to go up there. The story is told at length in my book,
Alliance. But I managed to go there on a Sunday morning in June of í79,
and I as briefly detained. I was kept there. I was forbidden to leave.
My passport was taken. The film was taken out of my camera.
I was told by the Germans
- These were Germans. These were not Chilenos.
These were not Spanish people - I was told by the Germans that I was
not welcome in the country, that I had to leave Chile immediately.
And as I was allowed to leave, which was touch-and-go for a while, all
the way back to Santiago, to the capital where I had my hotel room, I
was stopped along the way. I was in a bus and I was stopped along the
way by troops who had set up roadblocks, who were making sure that I was
on that bus. When I got back to my hotel room, there was a note waiting
for me that said I was on the next plane, that a reservation had been
So the amount of influence that the Nazi network had in 1979... í79 was
so many years after the end of World War Two, you know. Weíre talking 25
years later. They still had such great influence in a country so far
away as Chile that I began to see there was a lot more going on than
even I suspected. And that eventually became Unholy Alliance.
I began to see the connections between governments in Bolivia, Chile,
Argentina, Paraguay, an extensive Nazi network, a lot of money that had
left the Third Reich when the Nazis had lost the war.
I began to realize that the Nazi Party was not a political party the way
we understand political parties, but that the Nazi Party was a cult. If
you look at it from that point of view, you can understand the true
nature of this kind of evil, because the Nazi Party is... theyíre not
going to go away simply because they lost the war.
The old war criminals who escaped
- and some of them are still alive. A
few of them have died recently in South America, in Chile and Argentina.
They have their followers. They have their philosophy, their ideology.
Bill Ryan (BR): Forgive me for interrupting you, Peter.
BR: But it sounds implicit in what youíre saying, then, that they have
support from deep within the governments of those South American
PL: Well, sure. I mean, it depends on which regime is in power at any
given time. But letís take the example of Bolivia. Klaus Barbie, who was
the ďButcher of LyonĒ in France, who was a man responsible for all sorts
of war crimes in France, at one point became the chief of the secret
police of Bolivia. I mean, he had a federally-appointed position in that
Walter Rauff lived for a very long time in Chile. Walter Rauff was the
man who designed the mobile gas chambers, the vans that were used to
re-channel the exhaust into the vans to kill prisoners.
I mean, all of these people found safe haven, not only in South America,
but in the Middle East and in Asia as well, and to a certain extent in
KC: And in the United States as well.
PL: Absolutely. Certainly. Of course weíve had many cases here in the
United States of war criminals that weíve found, uncovered, and
occasionally shipped back.
A famous one, which got me very involved in the story, was the man who
for a long time was the head of the Romanian Orthodox Church in the
United States. Here was an Archbishop who during World War Two had been
a member of the... what was the name... the Iron Cross? The Iron Arrow,
I think, a Romanian Nazi organization, who had tortured prisoners.
Here was a man who was a devoted Nazi, who after the war was over fled
to the United States, and although he had no seminarial training as far
as Iíve been able to uncover, he managed to take over one branch of the
Romanian Orthodox Church in our country, in the Midwest, and was not
even discovered until maybe 20 years ago, when he was forced to leave
So yeah, weíve helped a lot of people escape.
The Catholic Church, also,
to a certain extent was involved in that, in an operation called Caritas
during World War Two, which provided Vatican passports to help some of
the more famous war criminals escape to South America. So there was a
lot of collaboration.
And even in our own country, in the United States, we had
Paperclip, in which we brought Nazi scientists over to help with our
space program, among other things.
So that got me working on what eventually became
Sinister Forces. I
began to wonder how was it that we in the United States could have sold
our souls so easily to something as heinous as a criminal organization
like the SS, and to the Nazis in general, to bring their scientists over
here, to make them work for us, and really to give them great jobs, to
give them positions in our industry.
Walter Dornberger is an example, who held a job on the board of
directors of Bell Helicopter. All sorts of people. People who worked for
the Space Medicine Program in Texas, at Randolph Air Force Base.
a very big story there.
KC: Right. And that has tentacles that go to the whole mind control
aspect. I think that you cover that really wonderfully in Sinister
Forces. I mean, I canít imagine what you do in Book Two and
but I have to say that thatís really a huge story.
PL: Well, I develop the same ideas. In
Book Two I focus a lot on the
Charles Manson family, as a kind of quintessential example of what
sinister forces might be from the behavior modification/mind control
And then in Book Three I sort of lay out what I think is the whole story
and how this works. I connect serial killers to
mind control operations
and try to understand.
I mean, our country, the CIA in particular in the 1950s, 1960s, all the
way up through until about Watergate, until the 1970s and
Rockefeller investigations, was involved in one of the most bizarre
experiments of modern times.
I mean, here we were, trying to figure out how the human consciousness
worked, how to understand memory, volition. How do we erase a personís
memory, implant new memories? How do we make a person do something they
would not ordinarily do - for instance, commit an assassination? And
then forget about it and not know why they did it?
I mean, this was something like a medieval king, you might think, hiring
alchemists and magicians, you know, to contact the other world. We were
doing that in the 1950s and í60s and probably still are today.
We have operations in which we are trying to understand how the mind
works and then to control it. Like a sorcererís apprentice, our
intelligence agencies stuck their fingers into human consciousness and
started playing around with the contents.
BR: Whatís the answer to your own question, Peter, which you posed just
a couple of minutes ago? About how... I think the words you used were:
How America could have sold its soul to the extent where it not only
brought these Nazi scientists over to American shores to give them great
jobs but actually, seemingly, embraced their whole agenda and took it
Were there evil forces at work in America during the Second World War?
Or was this something that was opportunistic because they realized the
magic that they certainly held in their hands and thought that they
could use this to their own ends, and it was too great a temptation to
PL: Well, I think, as usual, the causes take place on different levels
simultaneously. I think to point in one direction only might be a
mistake. I think sometimes itís desired that we do look in a certain
direction and not look in another one - the idea of misdirection.
I talk about sinister forces. I mean, thatís the title of my series, and
I took that title from Watergate because thatís how I started this
research. And ďsinister forcesĒ were blamed for that famous 18.5 minute
tape gap on the Oval Office tapes, on Nixonís office tapes, where there
was suddenly a big gap and no one knew what he had said.
I think it was
Alexander Haig or Buzhardt who had said the tape, the
hissing sound on the tape was the result of sinister forces. And I liked
that idea, that there was something darker at work.
I think that in many cases what we see around us is theater, a kind of
theater, and that there are forces that are deeper, darker, less
visible, manipulating events. Or I like to think that what we call
coincidence and synchronicity is evidence of the action of a darker
force or a deeper force.
BR: And are these forces also much more ancient? Because of course there
are many researchers, possibly yourself, who conclude that this whole
thing, this whole dark agenda, had its roots 2,000 or even 3,000 years
ago and itís been growing steadily since then.
KC: Well actually in your book youíre talking about going back into the
mounds in America, so youíre going back thousands if not millions of
KC: And thereís also the allusion to
Egypt and the pyramids. And youíre
talking about, you actually have to get to possible
and how we humans, how humanity began on this planet, when you go that
PL: Well, when I started looking at the burial mounds... The idea of the
Indian burial mounds came to me sheerly by accident, because I was
researching Manson and I decided to go where Charles Manson had grown
up, which was a town called Ashland in Kentucky.
I was struck by the fact that there were Indian burial mounds right in
the center of town. And I started to research that, wondering what did
that mean? I had never really come across this before. This was brand
new to me.
I started to look at the fact that these mounds are all over the United
States, especially east of the Mississippi, but also west of the
Mississippi to a certain extent.
I was struck by the fact that there was actually an
in America, in North America, that we have no clue about. It was just as
ancient as anything that was taking place in the Middle East. The
earthworks that they built were in some cases more grand and a lot
larger than the pyramids, and we know so little about it.
I began to look at America as a kind of haunted house, and I began to
ask myself: What forces are there really at work here?
The coincidences that we come across, especially a
theorist... Anybody who begins to investigate - the Kennedy
assassination is probably the most famous example - will come across
dozens and then hundreds and then maybe thousands of ďcoincidentalĒ
connections, between people, places, and events, which drives them
A regular historian, a mainstream historianís going to say: Well, that
was a coincidence; and that was a coincidence; and that was a
coincidence, and dismiss them all because he cannot see a real
But to me, and it happens to all of us who investigate these things, we
find ourselves bedeviled by these coincidences.
I mean, I was researching
Sinister Forces for a while in Asia. I was in
Southeast Asia in remote areas and I would walk into an old second-hand
bookstore and find books that I needed for my research. They were books
maybe on Charles Manson or something that I had never heard of before.
Scholarly texts would suddenly appear.
Or texts would appear that had
been written and printed privately by someone involved with the group
that I call ďThe NineĒ.
All of this stuff would fall into my hands even though I was in the
middle of nowhere, nowhere near any sort of academic structure, nowhere
near a Barnes and Noble bookstore or anything like that, [laughs] but
just really in the middle of nowhere.
So the multiplication of these events, to me, is an indication that
something else is at work, that maybe we need a quantum consciousness
approach to history itself, not just to our own minds in a kind of
theoretical way or a spiritual...
KC: Absolutely. Absolutely.
PL: History. Yep.
KC: Youíre talking about Puharich. Iím not sure how you say his name.
KC: And that opens a can of worms around the mind control and how the
mind control itself seems to stem from those early beginnings and the
consciousness that supposedly Puharich (Andrija Puharich) actually got into contact
- those ďNineĒ people - of which there are people that have written books
since then and gotten involved in supposedly being in contact with, if
not those intelligences, then others. Some call them the Giza
Intelligences. So itís all going back to somewhere back there, as well.
PL: Well, yeah. I mean, if you begin with Puharich, you can see the
contours of what Iím talking about quite clearly, because here was a man
who was a researcher into the paranormal, but he was also a captain in
the U. S. Army and a medial doctor, all of these things all together.
And this was all during the Korean War.
Here was a man who was giving lectures to the military on
how to weaponize ESP, you know, how to use manís telekinetic and telepathic
powers as a weapon in the fight in the Cold War.
At the same time, heís holding a sťance or a series of sťances at a
farmhouse in Maine to which heís invited a handful of people. But the
people heís invited are some of the wealthiest families in America, the
most powerful families in America, ďblue-bloodsĒ, I mean, who are
descended from the signers of the Declaration of Independence.
The thing that fascinates me about this is that this is thoroughly
documented stuff. Thereís no speculation about this at all. Anyone can
go and look it up and find out for themselves that these people did
meet, they conducted the sťance, they were in contact with some
extraterrestrial or supernatural group of beings which called themselves
And weíre talking about people who were also tangentially involved in
the Kennedy assassination which would take place ten, fifteen years
after these events. I mean, itís stunning. I mean, you ask yourself:
What is the connection? How could this possibly be?
BR: Yes. What did you think of Picknett and
Conspiracy, that you must have read as part of your research?
PL: I did read
The Stargate Conspiracy and I wanted to shout at Picknett
and Prince: Just go a little bit further! Go just a little bit more and
you will see the connections right back to the Kennedy assassination.
I was thrilled that they were writing about these events, about ďThe
NineĒ also. They were writing about Puharich. They had mentioned him.
They had mentioned this group, but they had not drawn the connection.
They had not connected the dots between, for instance, Arthur Young, who
was a prominent member of ďThe NineĒ, a man who invented the Bell
Helicopter, which I had mentioned just a little while ago as having been
involved with Nazi scientists...
BR: When you talk about ďThe NineĒ, are you talking about a human group,
or an off-world group? Or is this an allusion to two groups of nine?
PL: Well, when I talk about ďThe NineĒ, Iím focusing first on the human
group because those are the names of the people that we know. But of
course they were considered to be the Earthly representatives of this
spiritual or extraterrestrial group that called themselves ďThe Nine.Ē
BR: OK. What is that Earthly group of nine?
PL: Well, ďThe NineĒ included families
- for instance, Arthur Young and
his wife, Ruth Forbes Paine Young, who is a relative of John Kerryís, as
a matter of fact Ė John Forbes Kerry. So we have Arthur Young and his
wife, Ruth Forbes Paine Young.
We have a DuPont, we have an Astor, all as part of this group as well as
Puharich. So the Astor family was there - a very wealthy American and
British family, the Astors. Of course everyone knows the Astors and the
Waldorf Astoria, etcetera, etcetera. John Jacob Astor was on the
Titanic. So we have the Astor family.
the DuPonts, of course Ė extremely powerful, wealthy,
influential American family. And we have the Forbes - as in Forbes
Magazine, Steve Forbes, and all of that. That family was represented.
Her name was Ruth Forbes Paine. Paine was one of the original signers of
the Declaration of Independence. She is a direct descent along that line
by marriage. And Arthur Young himself, the inventor of the Bell
So you have a family grouping here of some of the most aristocratic
family names in America. If we had royalty, they would DuPonts and
Astors, Forbes, and Paines.
BR: Did they call themselves ďThe NineĒ? Or is this your term for them?
I mean, did they have an agenda or some kind of thesis or reason for
being together and were recognized as a group of that size?
PL: Well, they called themselves ďThe NineĒ in this fashion: They held a
sťance. Puharich was conducting a sťance. He had a medium from India, a
Dr. Vinod, and Vinod was in telepathic communication with a group of
beings that was somehow in space, hovering over the Earth, and there
were nine of them.
And they told the group of nine individuals:
We are nine, and you are
nine, therefore you are the Brahmins who are going to bring a new wave
of enlightenment, or a new wave of evolution to the planet. Weíre going
to use you as our vehicle for causing this kind of spiritual evolution,
this jumpstarting of evolution, if you will.
KC: And this was also a take-off on basically what
the Illuminati had
been, their philosophy since the beginning of the group that we call the
Illuminati, of which these families are all part?
PL: Well, thatís the implication. I mean, otherwise... Why are these
people, as I said before, some of the wealthiest individuals in the
United States, in Maine, in a barn, in the woods, on New Yearís Eve,
when they could have been anywhere else in the world? They had the
money, they had the wherewithal, they had the connections. Instead,
theyíre holding sťances in the freezing cold, in the winter, in this
What is the motivation for this? What is the purpose? How did they know
each other? We donít know so much about that. We know that Puharich was
the guy bringing them all together for the sťance and they willingly
went and took part in this endeavor, not just once but several times.
So their motivation, on their own? I donít know. I wouldnít want to
speculate except to say weíre talking about the most powerful people in
our country at the time.
BR: And the analogy that youíre drawing here is that thereís good
evidence that the Nazis were doing something similar, both before and
during the war, and yet youíre saying that this practice of powerful
individuals from powerful families in a powerful nation-state are
suddenly doing the same thing several decades later.
PL: Well, yes. I mean, less than ten years later. If we count the end of
World War Two as í45, these people were meeting in the early 1950s.
Himmler was doing, himself... I went and visited in Germany the
castle that he had renovated called Wewelsburg. Itís near the town of
Paderborn in Germany. And this castle was developed by him to be a kind
of Vatican for the SS. It was going to be their spiritual headquarters.
He was conducting very similar rituals there. He had duplicated a kind
of ďRoundtableĒ, a sort of Arthurian, Camelot kind of idea. There would
be 12 knights around it, which were the highest ranking SS officers.
They would gather in meditation at this table, in a room which was
directly over a crypt, and in the crypt would be placed urns containing
the ashes of SS officers as they died, the high ranking ones. There was
special niche for each one. There were swastikas engraved in the floors,
and the whole nine yards.
And so, the similar idea of meditation, of trying to contact
supernatural beings to guide the SS, was now being duplicated by a group
called ďThe Nine.Ē
And if we think in terms of race - you know the SS, like all the Nazis,
were obsessed with race and racial purity - suddenly with ďThe NineĒ we
have, as I said, the blue-blood of American families, DuPonts, Astors,
Paines, Forbes. We have this gathering of the... for want of a better
word, the most racially acceptable, to the Nazis, grouping in guided
meditations in the woods doing the same thing. Except there were not
twelve in this case. There were nine, very specifically.
So Iím not trying to draw too close a connection between what the Nazis
were doing and ďThe Nine.Ē The practices were quite similar. It was a
group sťance. It was a meditation. It was something to do with evolution
of the race.
So you have a lot of the same themes.
KC: OK. But what you also, I think, continued to investigate is to find
out where that information that they were receiving from ďThe NineĒ went
from there. Because I believe there is a trail that connects through SRI
Stanford Research Institute] and
Hal Puthoff and
KC: ...remote viewing, and actually then circles back and also has to do
with people that were involved in mind control then utilizing some of
that information? And/or is it guiding, for example, the agenda of the
Illuminati to this day?
PL: Well, it certainly did make that route that you just described, and
the connective tissue in all of this, of course, is Andrija Puharich.
Puharich was the man largely credited with having discovered Uri Geller,
for instance, the famous Israeli psychic. He brought Geller to SRI in
California to be tested.
There was also a connection with SRI and that grouping, with the people
Jonestown. The connections are vast with all of this, and if you
start pulling at the threads, you become extremely paranoid.
BR: Whatís the connection with Jonestown?
PL: Well, yes. In Volume Two I have about 100 pages alone just on
Jonestown because the amount of work that has yet to be done just to
decode that event is still leaning on us. We really know very little
about what really happened at Jonestown.
Slowly but surely more and more information has been revealed over the
last 20 years or so, some of it by a good friend of mine called Jim
Hogan, an investigative journalist who spent a lot of time researching
Jonestown and came up with some of the CIA documents to verify that Jim
Jones himself was some kind of contract agent with the CIA. He had
whatís called a 201 File at CIA. So we know there was a connection
But as far as the connection with SRI, I think it was
Iím not mistaken, I believe itís Russell Targ who was the man who was
involved with both Jonestown and SRI and Hal Puthoff.
KC: Thereís also the link back to Puharich as working for the CIA.
PL: Yes. As far as Uri Geller was concerned, Geller always said that
Puharich was his handler for the CIA. He made that statement several
But as far as SRIís concerned, Russell Targ, the physicist who was part
of the SRI group, by his own admission was involved with a group of
Jonestown survivors. He was director of counseling at their Human
Freedom Center in Berkeley and left them to join SRI to study psychic
The group that he was working with,
Elmer and Deanna Mertle, after he
left them, a few weeks after Targ left them to join SRI, the Mertles
were found dead, murdered execution-style in their home. So the
connection between Targ, SRI, and Jonestown is definite. What it means,
we donít know.
But we do know that Targ worked with the Mertles, which was a group of
survivors of the Jonestown massacre, people who had left the Jim Jones
church, The Peopleís Temple, and were trying to raise consciousness
against it. They had written a book about The Peopleís Temple and Targ
was working with them.
He left to join SRI and a couple of weeks later,
the Mertles were dead, murdered execution-style.
KC: So you have to also say that with all of this what happens is some
people will fall on working for the positive and some will be working
actually for the negative agenda, within the fact that there are
connections between these organizations - because there is very
definite connection between the CIA and SRI. And between Puharich and
CIA. So you get all these connections with CIA. Gordon Novel, the
Kennedy assassination. All of these link back to the CIA. So it gets
really convoluted. Itís really fascinating.
I know that youíve studied
the occult in great depth. Have you come to
any conclusions? Are you going down some trails now that perhaps are not
PL: Well, not publicized to the point that I donít quite know how to
explain all of this yet in any way that makes any kind of sense from an
academic point of view, but it has occurred to me during this kind of
research... As I mentioned before, I consider coincidence and
synchronicity to be evidence of the operation of these forces.
I think that these forces are there and I think that groups of human
beings from time to time make a conscious effort to contact these
forces, to manipulate them, to use them for their own advantages.
I think that the CIA did that with
MKULTRA and Operation Bluebird and
all of the
mind control experiments they did.
If you take a human being and you try to manipulate their consciousness,
you try to erase their memories, replace their memories, program them as
assassins, as an example, then what youíre doing is, youíre essentially
initiating that human being.
I mean, youíre putting them through a kind of
spiritual initiation, but
with none of the safeguards, with none of the spiritual preparation that
a person would normally go through to become protected against whatever
demons are invoked in the process.
So it was a very irresponsible,
callous, cruel program that the CIA had undertaken at that time.
KC: Irresponsible or actually intentional? I mean, thatís really the
question, isnít it, of the heads of the CIA, If they knew what they were
getting into? And they were invoking these negative forces, in essence,
and bringing them into the bodies of programmed assassins - and some of
which are actually sleeper agents that may indeed be part of our society
at the moment, sitting around waiting to be triggered.
In essence what youíre looking at could be an intentional agenda. And
thatís where it gets very interesting when youíre starting to look at
the future and what weíre actually faced with.
PL: Well, yeah. I mean, I think one of the good indications of just how
bad it got was the man who was for a long time in charge of this program
at the CIA, called
Sydney Gottlieb, Dr. Sydney Gottlieb...
When the MKULTRA project was ďdisbandedĒ by
Richard Helms in the mid-1970s,
Gottlieb went a little weird. He at one point became a Buddhist monk. He
went to India. He tried to essentially pay for his sins.
He wouldnít talk about this program anymore but he became a kind of
recluse and was obviously trying to live simply. He was living off the
land. He was living in a farmhouse, I believe in Virginia, after he came
back from India. He was a man who was shattered by the realizations of
what he had done, by the sins that he had committed against other human
So if the leader, if the creator, or the handmaiden of this operation
felt that way, I wonder what the actual day-to-day perpetrators felt,
the people who were actually involved in the day-to-day programming of
I think there is a tremendous amount of evidence to suggest that
Sirhan was just exactly one of those assassins who had been created.
Iíve gone through Sirhanís diaries, the diaries he was keeping up to the
point he was arrested for the assassination of Senator Robert Kennedy.
BR: And he has no idea what happened, does he?
PL: He doesnít. I mean, he admits he did it because he figures, you
know, he did it. I mean, if heís arrested for it and he was there, he
must have done it. But he has no memory of it. And his diaries are
extremely suggestive of someone whoís been through a behavior
modification program, something like a mind control program.
BR: I read a wonderful book which Iíve got. I also had the experience of
what I guess you could call the International Library Angel suddenly
depositing a book at your feet when youíre traveling. [laughs]
It was a
Long John Nebel who was the Art Bell radio host of his day, who
operated in the 1950s, who wrote an amazing book about the Control of
Candy Jones. You must be familiar with that.
PL: Yeah, I do. Iím fascinated by that account as well and I think itís
genuine. Itís been attacked, of course, by other researchers and authors
by saying that Long John Nebel kind of made it up or
Candy Jones never
went through this.
But if you really go through as I do, which is the thing that I do, is I
go through and I try to document what goes on. I met Candy Jones a
couple of years before she died. I was actually interviewed by her on
radio in New York City.
And from my point of view, what she discusses, especially her trips in
Asia and Taiwan, have the absolute ring of truth. I mean, I lived in
Asia for a long time. I traveled in those countries. The things that she
discusses I believe actually did occur. I think that she did not make
I can recognize the places sheís talking about.
BR: I read that book several times and it rang very, very true to me.
PL: Yeah. It was not a sensationalistic thing that she was making up. I
really do believe what she said happened had happened.
KC: So where are you going now with everything? Because you donít really
keep your blog up. You had been talking about McCain as a possible mind
control victim, and I think thereís great evidence to that effect. Iíd
be interested to hear what you have to say about Obama. I donít know
what your current situation is. The
Powers That Be, are they aware of
you? Have they made your life difficult? Because you seem to be one of
the best researchers actually pulling these threads together in one
BR: And what does this mean for us at the beginning of 2009, looking at
the next few years, and what this may mean for this country and the
PL: Yeah. These are very good questions. I took a little time out for a
while to get a graduate degree in religion and the thesis that I wrote,
I published as Stairway to Heaven, which came out about a year ago. I
have another book on the Freemasons which is coming out in April. Iíve
kept my hand in all of this but Iíve been doing a lot of academic-type
work on the one hand, and then a lot of investigative work, on the
The political situation: The way I look at it these days, as I mentioned
before, is theater. It is basically theater. We are watching a play
being acted out in front of us, and weíre all willing or unwilling
audience members in this play.
I think we have to not believe a lot of what we see, as being ďreal.Ē
Itís a kind of consensus reality. We all kind of agree that certain
things are real and certain things are not.
And I always like to talk about the root of the word reality, because
the word comes from a very interesting Indo-European root which also
gives us royal. It gives us what is real and what is royal. And
basically what that means is, to me:
ďWhatever the king says is real is
In other words, thereís a kind of agreement that we all enter into, a
kind of contract where we agree that certain things are, and certain
things are not, real. And I think weíve come to the point where we have
to revisit what we call real. We have to revisit reality to a certain
extent. We have to come up with a new paradigm, a new way of looking at
reality, because itís not working for us, the old way of looking at it.
Weíre too easily manipulated. Our country has made a science of the
manipulation of reality since at least the Korean War, if not before.
Communication science, which is being taught in the universities all
across the country, came into being as a result of World War Two and
psychological warfare studies.
I mean, the same guys who created
psychological warfare for use during the war were the guys who in the
private sector developed programs for teaching advertising, marketing,
BR: Mm hm...
PL: So we are really struggling with psychological warfare being
directed against by manipulating our reality.
KC: Right. A form of propaganda and mind control in and of itself, just
as television becomes in a sense a mind control tool.
PL: On a massive, massive scale. I used to live, as I mentioned, in
Asia, and we would get CNN out there. I donít want to single out CNN
particularly for opprobrium, but they are sort of an international news
organization that you can pick up on cable channels all over the world.
There was one particular instance where Iím in Kuala Lumpur and there
was a riot going on, on CNN, on television, in a restaurant. It was being
carried live. And weíre looking at the television screen, and weíre at
the site where this riot is supposed to be taking place. And thereís no
riot there! [Kerry laughs]
Weíre watching and weíre all looking at each other. Weíre watching the
screen and weíre saying: What is this?
It turns out there were three or four people in a corner somewhere and a
camera was on them. And the way it looked, it looked as if there were
all of these really angry people rioting.
I was getting a phone call from friends of mine saying: Go away! Get
out! Thereís a riot taking place. We can see it on television. And weíre
all sitting in the restaurant saying: Well, whereís the riot?
You know, there is no riot. I mean, it was
essentially. And if that happened that one time, how many other times
has this happened? How much of our news is being manipulated or
controlled or created, you know, as we watch it?
KC: Right, but as a researcher going into this as deeply as you have,
you must be able to look towards the future and come to certain
conclusions, and/or think about certain uninvestigated trails to look
I am curious: Do you think, for example, there are sleeper agents?
Because, you know, we keep having these incidents happen and they seem
to be evidence of mind control operations, in which you have school kids
suddenly flipping out, and so on and so forth.
Whereís it all headed?
PL: Well, if we characterize the agents of this madness as individual
human beings, we might be missing something darker and something deeper.
I believe that there are individual agents, of course, and thatís what I
investigate. Thatís what I write about. Thatís where the evidence leads
But sometimes I think that there is something else at work here. I think
that there is a kind of level of consciousness that is creating this for
us as well, and that weíre victims of it because we havenít learned how
to fight back. We havenít learned how to take control of our own
consciousness. Weíre essentially allowing others to do that for us.
I think that we have a kind of responsibility, perhaps now more than
ever, because the information is available to us, of fighting back by
taking control of our own minds, and taking back control of our own
consciousness, of trying to deprogram ourselves, if you will, away from
what weíre being fed on an almost hysterical basis.
I mean, things have ramped up to the point where paranoia, fear,
anxiety, stress levels have increased so exponentially, itís as if
someone wants us to have this collective nervous breakdown. We have to
take a stand and fight against it.
I think that if my research has shown nothing [else], itís shown that
humans who are involved in this quite often donít really understand it
that well themselves. Iím talking about the CIA.
I donít think that the people who ran MKULTRA really understood the full
ramifications of what they were doing. They had a very narrow focus.
They wanted to create deniable assassins, as an example, and that was
their focus. They didnít realize the other forces they were unleashing
at the time.
And I think that there are paths, there are shamanistic paths, there are
paths in the occult that might be actually beneficial for us to
investigate to understand how weíve been manipulated, how our
consciousness has been manipulated, our reality itself has been
manipulated. I think we have a chance because there is such an amount of
But we are headed into a very dangerous impasse, a very dangerous place.
I agree. But I think that we donít realize how much power we have as
individual human beings, or as small groups of individual human beings,
to combat this madness.
And I think we can take back our minds and our
lives from these forces, from these sinister forces.
BR: Are you able to say anything, do you feel, about the role of
PL: Ah... [laughter] How much time do you have?
BR: You know about the work of Eric Phelps and that large body of
research that he, among many others, represents. I just wondered if you
could pull some of those threads together once again for the benefit of
our listeners who would like to see as much of a summary of the big
picture as you are able to present here.
PL: Right. I grew up as a Roman Catholic. I was born into a Catholic
family in the pre-Vatican II days. And when Vatican II happened, I was
actually kind of disappointed. I didnít like all of the, you know,
guitar-playing Masses that were taking place and all this stuff. I felt
a little cheated of the mystery, somehow.
But then, as I started to research the Nazi information, thatís when
Phase One of my disenchantment or dis-enlightenment, or whatever you
want to call it, took place.
And that was understanding the degree to which elements within the
Vatican had assisted war criminals with hideous records to escape; how
they protected them at safe-houses throughout Europe and then in Latin
America; how they gave them Vatican passports; how we had the spectacle
of Nazi war criminals dressed as priests entering Argentina, entering
Brazil, in one case performing a marriage ceremony as a priest.
I mean, I canít even imagine what that poor family would have felt, had
they known that it was a man responsible for the deaths of hundreds if
not thousands of people blessing their union as a fake priest. So all of
this began to... that was Phase One.
Phase Two was realizing that what weíve been told about Christianity
itself, particularly about the Catholic Church, is based on so much
disinformation and so much manipulation of history and historical facts
that we really donít know what
the Catholic Church is any more, or what
it ever was. We donít know whatís going on there.
I mean, the Vatican scandals... The Masonic scandals, the
Due, the P2 Masonic scandal alone should have alerted people to the
degree of perfidy and cupidity that was taking place within the Vatican.
I mean, we had Licio Gelli and Roberto Calvi, all of these characters
who were heavily involved in the Vatican and at the same time financing
right-wing terror squads, assassination squads, in Europe, in Latin
America, working with Francisco Franco - the dictator of Spain for so
many years - heavily involved with fascist organizations and
It was mind-numbing, the extent to which this was taking place. So I
have a very hard time. You know, Iím thankfully a very lapsed Catholic.
You know, I want to stay that way. I canít believe that I would go to
the Bishops, Archbishops of the Catholic Church and accept spiritual
guidance from people whose own morals and ethics I have to question on
almost a daily basis.
KC: Well, also thereís a link between the Vatican,
the Illuminati, and
the US government, apparently. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Because when youíre talking about the Nazi influence in America, and
youíre talking also about The Powers That Be with Paperclip, the
Ultimate Space Program, and all of the levels at which the Vatican is
involved... From what I understand their secret service was basically
the model upon which secret services all over the world have been built.
PL: Well, sure. In fact, even the SS... the Nazis emulated the Jesuits.
I mean, Himmler wanted to create a
Jesuit Order for himself, and that
was what the SS was, hence the black uniforms, and the rituals in the
churches, and the rituals at night in the forests, and all this other
stuff. It was a kind of pagan Jesuit Order that Himmler was trying to
I mean, people may have disliked or even hated the Catholic Church or
the Vatican, but there was so much of it that they wanted to emulate,
that they wanted to duplicate. But the problem is that we have so much
information to discuss that it would take hours to get into it. Iíll
just bring up one or two points that will be enough to scare you, and
I think the place to look in the beginning, if you want to see the
connection between the Vatican, Nazis, and even the Illuminati, would be
Knights of Malta and some of the other
chivalric orders that the
Vatican maintains and supports.
I wonít even go into Opus Dei which is a whole other kettle of fish by
itself. I mean, weíre talking about a man who created that order who had
pro-fascist, pro-Franco sentiments. I mean, thereís no question about
it. And how he could be canonized is absolutely beyond me.
But anyway, look at the
Knights of Malta. Look at the connection between
the leaders of the CIA, many of whom were Roman Catholics, members of
the Knights of Malta or members of one of the other chivalric orders
around the Vatican.
When I was growing up in the Bronx in the 1960s, I saw with my own eyes
the influence that churches had with intelligence agencies, and
intelligence agencies with the churches. I mean, I witnessed it as a
young man of 18, 19 years old, working with a church in the Bronx that
was heavily involved with intelligence operations, which was actually a
front for intelligence operations.
And that brings us back again to
David Ferrie and Jack Martin and the
Kennedy assassinations, because I met the Bishops who ordained and
consecrated David Ferrie, Jack Martin, all these peripheral figures that
you saw in the movie JFK, you know, being played by Joe Pesche, being
played by Walter Matthau, I think.
These were people who were heavily involved in a church. They were also
involved in intelligence activities. They were also involved in
anti-Castro Cuban activities and considered to be involved, in one way,
shape, or form, with the assassination of a president in Dallas.
the nexus between religious organizations and intelligence
organizations is thick. Itís just thick, you know.
And like I say, I saw it with my own eyes. I know the church that Ferrie
and Martin belonged to in 1968 when Jim Garrison was starting ramping up
that investigation into the Kennedy assassination. David Ferrie died
mysteriously, but he was a priest and a Bishop with one of these
KC: Donít you also get into, maybe, whatís going on with the agenda, in
terms of how this plays out? For example, in the economy of the world
going downhill, and the desire for the One World Government. And how
thereíre certain problems being created so that a solution can be
created, as you know possibly
Ickeís work in that area?
So what Iím wondering is, are you following those threads? Obviously you
see the economy going down in America and around the world. There are
sacrifices, blood sacrifices. Some of these things, or maybe even all of
them, are actually planned as some kinds of sacrifices to these hidden,
dark entities in order to make certain things happen upon this planet.
PL: Well, if we donít characterize the economic situation as a purely
economic situation, I think we can see more clearly whatís taking place.
In a previous era, this might have been a vast military conflict. It
might have been a World War Three, or a World War Four or something.
Now weíre fighting that same war but
weíre using economics to do it.
This is a different approach to the same type of general control thatís
being exerted over the world.
I mean, the whole world cannot go broke. The money is
the funny thing. The humorous part of this thing, if you want to be
funny about it... that fact, you know, weíre thinking the whole world
economy is going down. But basically what happens, especially with
capitalism, is somebody gets rich and somebody gets poor. So whoís
During Watergate we were told to follow the money. And I think if we
follow the money today, we can find out whoís doing what to whom. We can
find out whoís actually doing this kind of control.
Iíve been looking at it. Iíve been trying. Following the money in
todayís economy is extremely difficult to do. I think even members of
congress are finding themselves totally unable to even explain whatís
happening. Some of them are not able. Some of them are strictly not
But if we can follow the money, if we can start pulling the threads on
the money over the last 12 to 18 months, we can probably figure out
whoís behind this thing.
For me, itís been very difficult to do although Iíve been trying to
cover it. I think the answer is out there. I think, as Fox Mulder used
to say: The truth is out there. But we have to look at the evidence, and
the evidence is there. Itís just itís very hard to figure out.
If weíre talking about manipulation of the world economy, itís because
weíre being prepared for something else. Obviously thereís an agenda.
Itís not strictly to make some people rich at the expense of others.
Thatís been going on forever. We donít need a collapse in the world
economy to do that.
So if a collapse is being engineered in the world economy, itís to
create a circumstance or a set of circumstances conducive to another
phase of action which has nothing to do with the economy. As you said,
it might be a
One World Government - possibly. It might be something
more heinous than that.
A collapse of the economy may be a way to keep in place the types of
controls that were put into our government during the last eight years.
It may be a way of preempting any kind of change that we thought we were
voting for - some of us anyway. So there may be a way to...
9/11 essentially was a
Reichstag fire which gave the president total
control of the government, in terms of the Patriot Act and everything
else, the collapse in the economy is essentially another 9/11, and itís
going to give the government additional powers that it never had.
BR: Itís just another kind of controlled demolition.
PL: Itís another kind of controlled demolition. Itís a... whatís the
word Iím looking for... a consolidation of all of this.
If we put the Patriot Act and some of the other things that took place
- the wiretaps, the illegal stuff thatís been going on - and we now
couple that with government control of banks and corporations, you know,
we have fascism.
Some people are talking about creating socialism or
communism here, but
fascism is also a wedding between the state and the corporation. Itís
not just socialism that weíre talking about.
The one thing that nobody wants to talk about is the fact that weíve
been creeping closer and closer to fascism in the last 40 or 50 years.
And that scares me, believe it or not, more than socialism does or even
communism. What frightens me most is a kind of fascism, an American
style of fascism.
KC: Well, I mean, this is the premise of Jim Marrsí book, as you know.
KC: And it is a basically a fait accompli in the minds of many, even
behind the scenes, with
Richard Hoagland and his investigation into NASA
and the symbolism there, and the
Paperclip background behind, you know,
the space program. So the agenda seems to have been a kind of fascism
that stemmed out of World War Two and is being continued today.
But where is that going? Once they have total control, then what? You
know, itís almost like they already have total control as it is. One
wonders: What next?
And the only thing weíve gotten so far in our study of this mystery is
the idea of
population elimination. In other words, they want to
eliminate large segments of the population. They havenít been able to do
so with other means, with viruses and so on.
In other words, this control youíre talking about has to lead to some
thing, because control is something theyíve, in a sense, always had. But
theyíre tightening it, and as you say, theyíre consolidating it.
what purpose in mind?
PL: Well, thatís another good question and itís something, too, that
would probably take a long time to try to analyze. I think that ďThe
Powers That BeĒ are not 100% happy yet. They donít really feel they have
the kind of control they would like.
Part of the reason for that is the
explosion of technology, which seems
to be getting out of control. You donít notice it perhaps as much in
this country as you would overseas where this kind of technology, the
internet in particular, has given people at the grassroots level a voice
they never had before.
So the governments in those parts of the world, especially in developing
countries, are struggling very hard to control the technology and
control access to information.
Right now we are talking over the internet and this will be available on
the internet, so people who want to can hear it. But this kind of
control eventually will probably have to be extended over what weíre
doing over the internet, over the free exchange of information.
I think itís already started and I think itís going to continue until
there is control over information. And once you control information, you
control reality. You control consciousness.
Once the independent
operators are gone, once theyíve been closed down, there will only be
the party line thatís left.
1984, isnít it?
PL: Well, it is 1984. Some people listening to this are going
to say to
themselves: You know, these are the aluminum hat people. You know, the
tin-foil hats. Weíre all worried about vast conspiracies taking control.
I want to tell you something, to the listeners who maybe think that at
times this is out in left field. I was on somewhat friendly terms with a
man called Norman Mailer, a famous author, one of Americaís most famous
novelists and journalists and authors, who passed away recently - a man
I admired very much.
He was kind enough to praise my own work and write
a foreword to Unholy Alliance.
He spoke in my presence about the fact that America was heading towards
fascism. Many people of that social setting, other authors, some of them
Pulitzer Prize-winning authors, people who are understood to be great
thinkers, great members of the intelligencia, have all said the same
thing to me or in my presence, that we are heading towards fascism, that
According to Norman mailer, back a couple of years ago, he said America
was in what he called a pre-fascist condition, but that we were heading
inexorably towards fascism. Other authors since then have said the same
So this is not something that only a handful of people on the absolute
fringe are feeling. These are things that are being felt on other levels
by other people who are not involved in this kind of investigation,
people who are not doing this kind of research, people who have just
opened their eyes and whoíve looked around and said: My goodness, this
is whatís going on.
Weíre becoming a fascist country.
BR: One of the things that confuses people sometimes, as you must be
well aware, is the idea that somehow thereís a spectrum with socialism
on the left and fascism on the right and the two are very different.
Actually, they meet in the middle, kind of loop round in a kind of
circle, one going to the left and one going to the right. Extreme
socialism and extreme fascism are actually very similar.
PL: Thatís the point I was just going to make. To have fascism or to
have socialism, you have to have a marriage between the state and
business. I mean, thatís how itís done.
Either the government owns the means of production as it does in a
socialist or a communist country, or the state and the corporations have
a working relationship, a nice working relationship, as
warned us about when he left office. He talked about the military/industrial complex and how frightened he was that that was happening.
That is fascism.
So, does it matter to the average person whether or not the government
owns the means of production or the government and the state and the
corporations are in bed together? Does it really matter to us on the
Itís going to be the same effect. Weíre still going to be controlled.
Our economyís going to be controlled. Our freedoms are going to be
drastically curtailed. So in the end, what difference does it make?
Iíve talked to people about 9/11 a lot. Thereís been, of course, a lot
of discussion about 9/11. And Iíve always said it was a
Itís what happened in Germany. How Hitler took complete control of the
government was the Reichstag burned down and he blamed the communists
And my point was, do we really care who burned down the Reichstag at
this point? All we really care about is the fact that it brought Hitler
So in our case,
what did 9/11 do?
It pushed all of these heinous attacks
on our liberty and our privacy. It pushed them right into the forefront.
It made it acceptable. Thatís what happened. That was the real effect of
all of this.
We can talk about 9/11 - for instance, we can talk about conspiracies.
But letís not lose sight of the fact that what happened, the effect of
it, was that we lost more liberty, we lost more privacy.
KC: Right. And so then that gets back to the overall agenda.
KC: And itís not a conspiracy theory. Itís a conspiracy fact when you
look at all the evidence. And whatís happening is that this particular
agenda is being rolled out.
And, of course, itís very heartening that you do talk about how
consciousness and the role of consciousness was getting out of the hands
of the people in MKULTRA, such that people like Gottlieb himself, who
was certainly one of the masterminds behind all of that, goes on his own
sojourn to India, looking for some kind of spiritual way out, I think,
of the responsibility for which he... You know, itís basically like
walking around in some kind of living hell, Iím sure, being inside that
And so, in essence, all of this is playing out in the microcosm around
the globe, not just America, because I see it in many countries. In
fact, England has the best surveillance system on the streets, cameras,
etcetera. So whatís happening is, on some level it seems to be
manifesting in America sort of in a more overt way. But in a covert way,
itís actually existed in small countries, under despots that were
financed by the CIA, and then across the globe, masterminding the
governments behind countries like Switzerland, and so on.
PL: Well, I mean, whatís very amusing to me in a sardonic sort of way is
the fact that in the United States if you talk about conspiracies,
youíre pooh-poohed. Youíre shot down. Itís considered, you know,
And yet we recognize without hesitation the fact that conspiracies like
this exist in every other country on the planet. Right? So when Benazir
Bhutto, the former prime minister of Pakistan, was gunned down last year
in Pakistan, everyone said of course it was a conspiracy. There were
elements of the Pakistani secret police involved. Al Qaeda may be
involved, or the Taliban, or who knows what. But automatically it was a
However, according to mainstream historians, not a single person
assassinated in this country has ever been assassinated by a conspiracy!
[laughs] No conspiracy. Nothing to see here. Move along. Right? We have
this idea somehow that the U.S. is immune to these events.
And yet we overthrow dictators in foreign countries. Weíve overthrown
and committed assassinations in Guatemala, in Iran back in the days of
the Shah. We overthrew the government of Allende in Chile. We put
Pinochet in power. All of these things we do on a regular basis and
weíve done it for years and years and years. And yet somehow it doesnít
take place inside the United States.
Why is that? Why is it so
impossible to believe?
KC: Right. And I think, though, nowadays itís a lot easier to sort of
get people to, not so much believe, but really understand the roots of
conspiracy. And ever since the death of Kennedy I think that Americaís
eyes have slowly been opened along those lines, at least many. Although
certainly 9/11, you still get people not able to accept the possibility
that a conspiracy took place there.
So again, I guess weíve gone full circle with you. In many ways weíre
going over some material here that is just... the roots are everywhere.
The conspiracies, if you will, are everywhere.
Itís very heartening to know that you are behind the wheel,
investigating all of this and documenting it and pulling as many threads
together as you are. I encourage people to follow your work.
want to read a lot more that youíve written.
PL: Where Iím going now? Iím still in the midst of all of this, you
know? Iím still in the midst of researching. I donít know what my next
book will be.
As I had mentioned, I have a book on
Freemasons coming out in April,
which is kind of a look at the connection between the Masonic society
the Mormons, and some of the occultism that was taking place in our
country before, during, and after the Revolution, the American
Revolution. So I look at the connections that were there.
Itís kind of a general look at Freemasonry. Iím not a Freemason myself,
of course. Thatís coming out in April.
Stairway to Heaven was really more about
Kabbalah and Chinese alchemy
and that sort of thing, a very spiritually oriented book trying to
understand some of the implications of some of the ancient writings.
So, where Iím going to go from here? Iím constantly collecting
information. Iím constantly building up files of data, trying to see
more connections, and Iím sure Iíll have something like this to share
with you soon.
KC: Thatís fabulous. One thing I do want to ask you, the book you were
talking about that you investigated the occult quite deeply...
PL: I was involved with it. Yeah.
The Necronomicon. Of course. I mean, I
made no secret of that. Iíve done some interviews based on that. That
was an occult work that, I think today itís one of the critical texts,
probably, of the mid-20th century on occultism. Itís been reviled by a
lot of people. People claim itís a hoax. Other people say itís a very
terrible book, or itís a very powerful work.
I look at it as the
survival of an old Middle Eastern occult practice
which involved a process of initiations, going through a series of
ďgatesĒ, gaining greater and greater illumination or enlightenment at
each time, each passing of the ďgateĒ. Itís an interesting book and the
events around it were interesting as well.
KC: Weíll have to revisit that with you because Iím fascinated by that
KC: Well, thank you, Peter. This has been fascinating. Weíre both really
very interested in what youíre going to be doing in the future, as well as
to get into your work after this conversation. And thank you for taking
the time today to talk to us.
PL: It was my pleasure. Thank you very much.