Herein is the lecture by D.C.Hammond, originally entitled "Hypnosis
in MPD: Ritual Abuse," but now usually known as the "Greenbaum
Speech," delivered at the Fourth Annual Eastern Regional Conference
on Abuse and Multiple Personality, Thursday June 25, 1992, at the
Radisson Plaza Hotel, Mark Center, Alexandria, Virginia.
Sponsored by the Center for Abuse Recovery & Empowerment, The
Psychiatric Institute of Washington, D.C. Both a tape and a
transcript were at one time available from Audio Transcripts of
Alexandria, Virginia (800-338-2111).
Tapes and transcripts of other
sessions from the conference are still being sold but - understandably
- not this one. The transcript below was made from a
privately made tape of the original lecture.
The single most remarkable thing about this speech is how little
one has heard of it in the two years since its original delivery. It
is recommended that one reads far enough at least until one finds
why itís called "the Greenbaum speech."
In the introduction the following background information is given
for D. Corydon Hammond:
B.S. M.S. Ph.D
(Counseling Psychology) from the University of Utah
in Clinical Hypnosis, the American Board of
in Sex Therapy, the American Board of Sexology
Clinical Supervisor and Board Examiner, American
Board of Sexology
in Marital and Sex Therapy, American Board of Family
Licensed Marital Therapist
Licensed Family Therapist, State of Utah
Research Associate Professor of Physical Medicine
and Rehabilitation, Utah School of Medicine
Director and Founder of the Sex and Marital Therapy
Clinic, University of Utah
Adjunct Associate Professor of Educational Psychology, University of
Editor, The American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis
Advising Editor and Founding Member, Editorial Board, The Ericsonian
Referee, The Journal of Abnormal Psychology
1989 Presidential Award of Merit, American Society of Clinical
Hypnosis Urban Sector Award, American Society of Clinical Hypnosis
Current President, American Society of Clinical Hypnosis
THE GREENBAUM SPEECH of D.C.HAMMONDí
Weíve got a lot to cover today and let me give you a rough
approximate outline of the the things that Iíd like us to get into.
First, let me ask how many of you have had at least one course or
workshop on hypnosis? Can I see the hands? Wonderful. That makes our
Okay. I want to start off by talking a little about trance-training
and the use of hypnotic phenomena with an MPD dissociative-disorder
population, to talk some about unconscious exploration, methods of
doing that, the use of imagery and symbolic imagery techniques for
managing physical symptoms, input overload, things like that. Before
the dayís out, I want to spend some time talking about something I
think has been completely neglected in the field of dissociative
disorder, and thatís talking about methods of profound calming for
automatic hyper-arousal thatís been conditioned in these patients.
Weíre going to spend a considerable length of time talking about
age-regression and abreaction in working through a trauma. Iíll show
you with a non-MPD patient - some of that kind of work - and then
extrapolate from what I find so similar and different with MPD
cases. Part of that, I would add, by the way, is that Iíve been very
sensitive through the years about taping MPD cases or ritual-abuse
cases, part of it being that some of that feels a little like using
patients and I think that this population has been used enough.
Thatís part of the reason, by choice, that I donít generally
videotape my work.
I also want to talk a bunch about hypnotic relapse-prevention
strategies and post- integration therapy today. Finally, I hope to
find somewhere in our time-frame to spend on hour or so talking
specifically about ritual abuse and about mind-control programming
and brainwashing - how itís done, how to get on the inside with
that - which is a topic that in the past I havenít been willing to
speak about publicly, have done that in small groups and in
consultations, but recently decided that it was high time that
somebody started doing it. So weíre going to talk about specifics
In Chicago at the first international congress where
was talked about I can remember thinking, "How strange and
interesting." I can recall many people listening to an example given
that somebody thought was so idiosyncratic and rare, and all the
people coming up after saying, "Gee, youíre treating one, too?
Youíre in Seattle"...Well, Iím in Toronto...Well, Iím in
Florida...Well, Iím in Cincinnati." I didnít know what to think at
It wasnít too long after that I found my first ritual-abuse patient
in somebody I was already treating and we hadnít gotten that deep
yet. Things in that case made me very curious about the use of
mind-control techniques and hypnosis and other brainwashing
techniques. So I started studying brainwashing and some of the
literature in that area and became acquainted with, in fact, one of
the people whoíd written one of the better books in that area.
Then I decided to do a survey, and from the ISSMP&D [International
Society for the Study of Multiple Personality and Dissociation]
folks I picked out about a dozen and a half therapists that I though
were seeing more of that than probably anyone else around and I
started surveying them. The interview protocol, that I had. got the
same reaction almost without exception. Those therapists said,
"Youíre asking questions I donít know the answers to. Youíre asking
more specific questions than Iíve ever asked my patients." Many of
those same therapists said, "Let me ask those questions and Iíll get
back to you with the answer." Many of them not only got back with
answers, but said, "Youíve got to talk to this patient or these two
patients." I ended up doing hundred of dollars worth of telephone
What I came out of that was a grasp of a variety of brainwashing
methods being used all over the country. I started to hear some
similarities. Whereas I hadnít known, to begin with, how widespread
things were, I was now getting a feeling that there were a lot of
people reporting some similar things and that there must be some
degree of communication here.
Then approximately two and a half years ago I had some material drop
in my lap. My source was saying a lot of things that I knew were
accurate about some of the brainwashing, but it was telling me new
material I had no idea about. At this point I took and decided to
check it out in three ritual-abuse patients I was seeing at the
time. Two of the three had what they were describing, in careful
inquiry without leading or contaminating. The fascinating thing was
that as I did a telephone-consult with a therapist that Iíd been
consulting for quite a number of months on an MPD case in another
state, I told her to inquire about certain things. She said, "Well,
what are those things?" I said, "Iím not going to tell you, because
I donít want there to be any possibility of contamination. Just come
back to me and tell me what the patient says."
She called me back two hours later, said,
"I just had a double
session with this patient and there was a part of him that said,
íOh, weíre so excited. If you know about this stuff, you know how
the Cult Programmers get on the inside and our therapy is going to
go so much faster.í"
Many other patients since have had a reaction of wanting to pee
their pants out of anxiety and fear rather than thinking it was
But the interesting thing was that she then asked, "What are these
things?" They were word perfect - same answers my source had given
me. Iíve since repeated that in many parts of the country. Iíve
consulted in eleven states and one foreign country, in some cases
over the telephone, in some cases in person, in some cases giving
the therapist information ahead of time and saying, "Be very careful
how you phrase this. Phrase it in these ways so you donít
contaminate." In other cases not even giving the therapist
information ahead of time so they couldnít.
When you start to find the same
highly esoteric information in
different states and different countries, from Florida to
California, you start to get an idea that thereís something going on
that is very large, very well coordinated, with a great deal of
communication and sytematicness to whatís happening. So I have gone
from someone kind of neutral and not knowing what to think about it
all to someone who clearly believes ritual abuse is real and that
the people who say it isnít are either naive like people who didnít
want to believe the Holocaust or - theyíre dirty.
Now for a long time I would tell a select group of therapists that I
knew and trusted, information and say,
"Spread it out. Donít spread
my name. Donít say where it came from. But hereís some information.
Share it with other therapists if you find itís on target, and Iíd
appreciate your feedback."
People would question
- in talks - and
say, you know, they were hungry for information. Myself, as well as
a few others that Iíve shared it with, were hedging out of concern
and out of personal threats and out of death threats. I finally
decided to hell with them. If theyíre going to kill me, theyíre
going to kill me. Itís time to share more information with
therapists. Part of that comes because we proceeded so cautiously
and slowly, checking things in many different locations and find the
same thing. So Iím going to give you the way in with ritual-abuse
programming. I certainly canít tell you everything that you want to
know in forty-five or fifty minutes, but Iím going to give you the
essentials to get inside and start working at a new level.
I donít know what proportion, honestly, of patients have this. I
would guess that maybe somewhere around at least fifty percent,
maybe as high as three-quarters, I would guess maybe two-thirds of
your ritual-abuse patients may have this. What do I think the
distinguishing characteristic is? If they were raised from birth in
a mainstream cult or if they were an non-bloodline person, meaning
neither parent was in the Cult, but Cult people had a lot of access
to them in early childhood, they may also have it. I have seen more
than one ritual-abuse patient who clearly had all the kind of ritual
things you hear about. They seemed very genuine. They talked about
all the typical things that you hear in this population, but had
none of this programming with prolonged extensive checking. So I
believe in one case I was personally treating that she was a kind of schizmatic break-off that had kind of gone off and done their own
thing and were no longer hooked into a mainstream group.
Hereís where it appears to have come from. At the end of World War
II, before it even ended, Allen Dulles and people from our
Intelligence Community were already in Switzerland making contact to
get out Nazi scientists. As World War II ends, they not only get out
rocket scientists, but they also get out some Nazi doctors who have
been doing mind-control research in the camps.
They brought them to the United States. Along with them was a young
boy, a teenager, who had been raised in a Hasidic Jewish tradition
and a background of Cabalistic mysticism that probably appealed to
people in the Cult because at least by the turn of the century
Aleister Crowley had been introducing Cabalism into Satanic stuff,
if not earlier. I suspect it may have formed some bond between them.
But he saved his skin by collaborating and being an assistant to
them in the death-camp experiments. They brought him with them.
They started doing mind-control research for Military Intelligence
in military hospitals in the United States. The people that came,
the Nazi doctors, were Satanists. Subsequently, the boy changed his
name, Americanized it some, obtained an M.D. degree, became a
physician and continued this work that appears to be at the center
of Cult Programming today. His name is known to patients throughout
What they basically do is they will get a child and they will start
this, in basic forms, it appears, by about two and a half after the
childís already been made dissociative. Theyíll make him dissociative not only through abuse, like sexual abuse, but also
things like putting a mousetrap on their fingers and teaching the
parents, "You do not go in until the child stops crying. Only then
do you go in and remove it."
They start in rudimentary forms at about two and a half and kick
into high gear, it appears, around six or six and a half, continue
through adolescence with periodic reinforcements in adulthood.
Basically in the programming the child will be put typically on a
gurney. They will have an IV in one hand or arm. Theyíll be strapped
down, typically naked. Thereíll be wires attached to their head to
monitor electroencephalograph patterns. They will see a pulsing
light, most often described as red, occasionally white or blue.
Theyíll be given, most commonly I believe, Demerol. Sometimes itíll
be other drugs as well depending on the kind of programming. They
have it, I think, down to a science where theyíve learned you give
so much every twenty- five minutes until the programming is done.
They then will describe a pain on one ear, their right ear
generally, where it appears a needle has been placed, and they will
hear weird, disorienting sounds in that ear while they see photic
stimulation to drive the brain into a brainwave pattern with a
pulsing light at a certain frequency not unlike the goggles that are
now available through Sharper Image and some of those kinds of
stores. Then, after a suitable period when theyíre in a certain
brainwave state, they will begin programming, programming oriented
to self-destruction and debasement of the person.
In a patient at this point in time about eight years old who has
gone through a great deal early programming took place on a military
installation. Thatís not uncommon. Iíve treated and been involved
with cases who are part of this original mind-control project as
well as having their programming on military reservations in many
cases. We find a lot of connections with the CIA. This patient now
was in a Cult school, a private Cult school where several of these
sessions occurred a week.
She would go into a room, get all hooked up. They would do all of
these sorts of things. When she was in the proper altered state, now
they were no longer having to monitor it with
electroencephalographs, she also had already had placed on her
electrodes, one in the vagina, for example, four on the head.
Sometimes theyíll be on other parts of the body. They will then
begin and they would say to her, "You are angry with someone in the
group." Sheíd say, "No, Iím not" and theyíd violently shock her.
They would say the same thing until she complied and didnít make any
Then they would continue. "And because you are angry with someone in
the group," or "When you are angry with someone in the group, you
will hurt yourself. Do you understand?" She said, "No" and they
shocked her. They repeated again, "Do you understand?" "Well, yes,
but I donít want to." Shock her again until they get compliance.
Then they keep adding to it. "And you will hurt yourself by cutting
yourself. Do you understand?" Maybe sheíd say yes, but they might
say, "We donít believe you" and shock her anyway. "Go back and go
over it again." They would continue in this sort of fashion. She
said typically it seemed as though theyíd go about thirty minutes,
take a break for a smoke or something, come back. They may review
what theyíd done and stopped or they might review what theyíd done
and go on to new material. She said the sessions might go half an
hour, they might go three hours. She estimated three times a week.
Programming under the influence of drugs in a certain brainwave
state and with these noises in one ear and them speaking in the
other ear, usually the left ear, associated with right hemisphere
non-dominant brain functioning, and with them talking, therefore,
and requiring intense concentration, intense focusing. Because often
theyíll have to memorize and say certain things back, word-perfect,
to avoid punishment, shock, and other kinds of things that are
occurring. This is basically how a lot of programming goes on.
Some of itíll also use other typical brainwashing kinds of
techniques. There will be very standardized types of hypnotic things
done at times. Thereíll be sensory deprivation which we know
increases suggestibility in anyone. Total sensory deprivation,
suggestibility has significantly increased, from the research. Itís
not uncommon for them to use a great deal of that, including formal
sensory- deprivation chambers before they do certain of these
Now let me give you, because we donít have a lot of time, as much
practical information as I can.
The way that I would inquire as to whether or not some of this might
be there would be with ideomotor finger-signals. After youíve set
them up I would say, "I want the central inner core of you to take
control of the finger-signals." Donít ask the unconscious mind. The
case where youíre inquiring about ritual abuse, thatís for the
central inner core. The core is a Cult-created part.
"And I want
that central inner core of you to take control of this hand of these
finger-signals and what it has for the yes-finger to float up. I
want to ask the inner core of you is there any part of you, any part
of Mary," thatís the hostís name, "who knows anything about Alpha,
Beta, Delta, or Theta."
If you get a Yes, it should raise a red flag that you might have
someone with formal intensive brainwashing and programming in place.
I would then ask and say,
"I want a part inside who knows something
about Alpha, Beta, Delta, and Theta to come up to a level where you
can speak to me and when youíre here say, íIím here.í"
I would not
ask if a part was willing to. No oneís going to particularly want to
talk about this. I would just say, "I want some part who can tell me
about this to come out." Without leading them ask them what these
things are. Iíve had consults where Iíve come in. Sometimes Iíve
gotten a Yes to that, but as Iíve done exploration it appeared to be
some kind of compliance response or somebody wanting, in two or
three cases, to appear maybe that they were ritual abuse and maybe
they were in some way, but with careful inquiry and looking it was
obvious that they did not have what we were looking for.
Let me tell you what these are. Letís suppose that this whole front
row here are multiples and that she has an alter named Helen and she
has one named Mary, she has one named Gertrude, she has one named
Elizabeth, and she has one named Monica. Every one of those alters
may have put on it a program, perhaps designated
alpha-zero-zero-nine a Cult person could say, "Alpha-zero-zero-nine"
or make some kind of hand gesture to indicate this and get the same
part out in any one of them even though they had different names
that they may be known by to you.
Alphas appear to represent general programming, the first kind of
things put in.
Betas appear to be sexual programs. For example, how
to perform oral sex in a certain way, how to perform sex in rituals,
having to do with producing child pornography, directing child
Deltas are killers trained in how to kill
in ceremonies. Thereíll also be some self-harm stuff mixed in with
that, assassination and killing.
Thetas are called psychic killers.
You know, I had never in my life heard those two terms paired
together. Iíd never heard the words "psychic killers" put together,
but when you have people in different states, including therapists
inquiring and asking, "What is Theta," and patients say to them,
"Psychic killers," it tends to make one a believer that certain
things are very systematic and very widespread. This comes from
their belief in psychic sorts of abilities and powers, including
their ability to psychically communicate with "motherí" including
their ability to psychically cause somebody to develop a brain
aneurysm and die. It also is a more future-oriented kind of
Then thereís Omega. I usually donít include that word when I say my
first question about this or any part inside that knows about Alpha,
Beta, Delta, Theta because Omega will shake them even more.
has to do with self-destruct programming. Alpha and Omega, the
beginning and the end. This can include self-mutilation as well as
killing- themselves programming.
Gamma appears to be system-protection and deception programming
which will provide misinformation to you, try to misdirect you, tell
you half-truths, protect different things inside.
There can also be other Greek letters. Iíd recommend that you go and
get your entire Greek alphabet and if you have verified that some of
this stuff is present and they have given you some of the right
answers about what some of this material is, and I canít underline
enough: DO NOT LEAD THEM. Do not say, "Is this killers?" Get the
answer from them, please. When youíve done this and it appears to be
present, I would take your entire Greek alphabet and, with ideomotor
signals, go through the alphabet and say, "Is there any programming
inside associated with epsilon, omicron," and go on through. There
may be some sytematicness to some of the other letter, but Iím not
aware of it. Iíve found, for example, in one case that Zeta had to
do with the production of snuff films that this person was involved
With another person, Omicron had to do with their linkage and
associations with drug smuggling and with the Mafia and with big
business and government leaders. So thereís going to be some
individualism, I think, in some of those.
Some of those are come-home programs, "come back to the Cult",
"return to the Cult" program.
Hereís the flaw in the system. They have built in shut-down and
erasure codes so if they got into trouble they could shut something
down and they could also erase something. These codes will sometimes
be idiosyncratic phrases, or ditties. Sometimes they will be numbers
maybe followed by a word. Thereís some real individuality to that.
At first I had hoped if we can get some of these maybe theyíll work
with different people. No such luck. Itís very unlikely unless they
were programmed at about the same point in time as part of the same
little group. Stuff that Iíve seen suggests that they carry laptop
computers, the programmers, which still include everything that they
did twenty, thirty years ago in them in terms of the names of
alters, the programs, the codes, and so on.
Now what you can
do is get erasure codes, and I always ask, "If I say this code,
what will happen?í Double check. "Is there any part
inside who has different information?" Watch your ideomotor signals
and what Iíve found is you can erase programs by giving the
appropriate codes, but then you must abreact the feelings. So if you
erase Omega, which is often where Iíve started because itís the most
high risk. Afterwards I will get all the Omega, what were formerly
Omega alters, together so that we will abreact and give back to the
host the memories associated with all the programming that was done
with Omega and anything any Omega part ever had to do in a
They use the metaphor - and it is their metaphor
- of robots, and
it is like a robot shell comes down over the child alter to make
them act in robotic fashion. Once in a while internally youíll
confront robots. What I found from earlier work, and so I speed the
process up now because I confirmed it enough times, is that you can
say to the core,
"Core, I want you to look
- thereís this robot
blocking the way in some way, blocking the progress. Go around and
look at the back of the head and tell me what you notice on the back
of the head or the neck."
I just ask it very non-leading like that
and whatís commonly said to me is that there were wires or a switch.
So Iíll tell them, "Hold the wires or flip the switch and it will
immobilize the robot and give me a yes-signal when youíve done it."
Pretty soon you get a yes-signal. "Great. Now that the robot is
immobilized, I want you to look inside the robot and tell me what
Itís generally one or several children. I have them remove the
children. I do a little hypnotic magic and ask the core to use a
laser and vaporize the robot so nothing is left. Theyíre usually
quite amazed that this works, as have been a number of therapists.
Now there are many different layers of this stuff is the problem.
Let me come over to the overhead and give some ideas about them.
What we have up here are innumerable alters.
Iíll tell you one of the fascinating things Iíve seen. I remember a
little over a year ago coming in to see some cases, some of the
tough cases at a dissociative-disorders unit of a couple of the
finest of the MPD therapists in this country, who are always part of
all the international meetings, have lectured internationally. We
worked and I look at some of their patients. They were amazed at
certain things because they had not been aware of this before. As we
worked with some of the patients and confirmed it, I remember one
woman whoíd been inpatient for three years, still was inpatient.
Another who had one intensive year of inpatient work with all the
finest MPD therapy you can imagine - abreactions, integrations,
facilitating cooperation, art therapy, on and on and on, journaling,
intensively for one inpatient year followed by an intensive year of
outpatient therapy two, three hours a week. In both patients we
found out that all of this great work had done nothing but deal with
the alters up here and had not touched the mind-control programming.
In fact it was not only intact, but we found that the one who was
outpatient was having her therapy monitored every session by her
mother, out-of-state, over the telephone, and that she still had
intact suggestions that had been give to her at a certain future
time to kill her therapist.
Now one of the things that I would very carefully check is, I would
suggest that you ask the core, not just the unconscious mind, ask
the core, "Is there any part inside that continues to have contact
with people associated with the Cult? Is there any part inside who
goes to Cult rituals or meetings? Is there a recording device inside
of Mary," if thatís the hostís name, "a recording device inside so
that someone can find out the things that are said in sessions?"
This doesnít mean theyíre monitored. Many of them just simply have
it. "Is there someone who debriefs some part inside for what happens
in our therapy sessions?" I have the very uncomfortable feeling from
some past experience that when you look at this you will find the
large proportion of ritual-abuse victims in this country are having
their ongoing therapy monitored.
I remember a woman who came in about twenty-four years old, claimed
her father was a Satanist. Her parents divorced when she was six.
After that it would only when her father had visitation and he would
take her to rituals sometimes up until age fifteen. She said, "I
havenít gone to anything since I was fifteen." Her therapist
believed this at face value. We sat in my office. We did a two-hour
inquiry using hypnosis. We found the programming present. In
addition to that we found that every therapy session was debriefed
and in fact they had told her to get sick and not come to the
appointment with me.
Another one had been told that I was Cult and that if she came I
would know that sheíd been told not to come and I would punish her.
If anything meaningful comes out in a patient whoís being monitored
like that - from what Iíve learned thus far, theyíre tortured with
electric shocks - my belief is if theyíre in that situation you
canít do meaningful therapy other than being supportive and caring
and letting them know you care a lot and youíll be there to support
them. But I wouldnít try to work with any kind of deep material or
deprogramming with them because I think it can do nothing but get
them tortured and hurt unless they can get into a safe, secure
inpatient unit for an extended period of time to do some of the work
I have a feeling that when you make inquiries youíre going to find
that probably greater than fifty percent of these patients, if
theyíre bloodline, meaning mother or dad or both involved, will be
monitored on some ongoing basis. [Pause] Now when you come below the
alters, you then have Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta, so and so forth,
the Greek-letter programming and they will then have backup
programs. There will typically be an erasure code for the backups.
There may be one code that combines all the backups into one and
then an erasure code for them, simply one code that erases all the
backups. So I will get the code for, letís say, Omega and for all
the Omega backups at the same time. After Iíve asked "What will
happen if I give this," I will give the code and then I will say,
"What are you experiencing?" They often describe computer whirring,
things erasing, explosions inside, all sorts of interesting things.
Iíve had some therapists come back and say, "My Lord, I had never
said anything about robots she said something about robots
I remember one therapist whoíd been with me in several hypnosis
workshops and consulted with me about a crisis MPD situation. I told
her to inquire about Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta. She did. She got
back to me saying, "Yeah, I got an indication itís there. What is
it?" I said, "Iím not going to tell you. Go back and inquire about
some of this." We set an appointment for a week or so hence. She got
back with me and said, "I asked what Theta was and she said,
ípsychic killers.í I asked her what Delta was and she said
íkillers.í" Okay. So I told her about some of this stuff for a
She called back and she said, "This seemed too fantastic. I heard
this and I thought, íHas Cory been working too hard?í" she said, Iím
embarrassed to admit it, but she said, "I held you in high
professional regard, but this just sounded so off in the twilight
zone that I really thought, íIs he having a nervous breakdown or
something?í" She said, "But I respected you enough to ask about
this." She said, "I asked another MPD patient and she didnít have
any of this." So in this patient she started describing things and
how she worked, for example, with an erasure and she was describing
things like robots vaporizing and kinds of things. She said, "I
hadnít told her about any of these things." Well, hereís the
problem. There are different layers and I think some of them are
designed to keep us going in circles forever. They figured we
probably, in most cases, wouldnít get below the alters which they
The way you create Manchurian Candidates is you divide the mind.
Itís part of what the Intelligence Community wanted to look at. If
youíre going to get an assassin, youíre going to get somebody to go
do something, you divide the mind. It fascinates me about cases like
the assassination of Robert Kennedy, where Bernard Diamond, on
examining Sirhan Sirhan found that he had total amnesia of the
killing of Robert Kennedy, but under hypnosis could remember it. But
despite suggestions he would be able to consciously remember, could
not remember a thing after was out of hypnosis. Iíd love to examine Sirhan Sirhan.
It appears that below this weíve got some other layers. One is
called "Green Programming" it appears. Isnít it interesting that the
doctorís name is Dr. Green? One of the questions in a way that does
not contaminate is after Iíve identified some of this stuff is there
and theyíve given me a few right answers about what some of it is,
"If there were a doctor associated with this programming and his
name were a color, you know, like Dr. Chartreuse or something, if
his name were a color, what color would the color be?"
Now once in a while Iíve had some other colors mentioned in about
three or four patients that I felt were trying to dissimulate in
some way and I donít really believe had this. In one case I got
another color and I found out later it was a doctor whose name was a
color who was being trained by Dr. Green almost thirty years ago and
he supervised part of the programming of this woman under this
doctor. I remember one woman couldnít come up with anything. No
alter would speak up with anything. I said, "Okay," and we went on
to some other material. About two minutes later she said, "Green. Do
you mean Dr. Green?" We found this all over.
There appears to be some
Green Programming below that and I suspect
that you get down to fewer and more central programs the deeper you
go. Well, all Green Programming is Ultra-Green and the Green Tree.
Cabalistic mysticism is mixed all into this. If youíre going to work
with this you need to pick up a couple of books on the Cabala. One
is by a man named Dion Fortune called "Qabala" with a "q," Dion
Fortune. Another is by Ann Huffer-Heller and itís called "The Kabbalah." I knew nothing about the Cabala. It was interesting. A
patient had sat in my waiting area, got there considerably early and
drew a detailed multicolored Cabalistic Tree over two years ago. It
took me two months to figure out what it was. Finally, showing it to
somebody else who said, "You know? That looks an awful lot like the
Cabala Tree" and that rang a bell with some esoteric in an old book
and I dug it out. That was the background of Dr. Green.
Now the interesting thing about the Green Tree is his original name
Greenbaum. What does "greenbaum" mean in German? Green Tree,
Ultra-Tree and the Green Tree. Iíve also had patients who didnít
appear to know that his original name was Greenbaum, volunteered
that there were parts inside named Mr. Greenbaum. Now let me give
you some information about parts inside that may be helpful to you
if youíre going to inquire about these things, because my experience
is one part will give you some information and either run dry or get
defensive or scared and stop. and so you punt and you make an end
run and you come around the other direction, you find another part.
Iíll tell you several parts to ask for and ask if thereís a part by
And, by the way, when Iím screening patients and fiddling
around with this, I throw in a bunch of spurious ones and ask, "Is
there a part inside by this name and by that name" as a check on
whether or not it appears genuine. For example. "In addition to the
core," I ask, "is there a part inside named Wisdom?" Wisdom is a
part of the Cabalistic Tree. Wisdom, Iíve often found, will be
helpful and give you a lot of information. "Is there a part inside
named Diana?" I mean I may throw in all sorts of things. "Is there a
part inside named Zelda?" Iíve never encountered one yet! Just to
see what kind of answers we get. I try to do this carefully. Diana
is a part that, in the Cabalistic system, is associated with a part
called the Foundation. You will be fascinated to know that.
the Process Church? Roman Polanskiís wife, Sharon Tate, was killed
by the Manson Family who were associated with the Process Church? A
lot of prominent people in Hollywood were associated and then they
went underground, the books say, in about seventy-eight and
vanished? Well, theyíre alive and well in southern Utah. We have a
thick file in the Utah Department of Public Safety documenting that
they moved to southern Utah, north of Monument Valley, bought a
movie ranch in the desert, renovated it, expanded it, built a bunch
of buildings there, carefully monitored so that very few people go
out of there and no one can get in and changed their name.
A key word in their name is "Foundation."
The Foundation. There are
some other words. The Foundation is part of the Tree. So you can
ask, "Is there something inside known as The Foundation?" I might
ask other things to throw people off. "Is there something known as
the Sub-Basement?" Well, maybe theyíll conceive of something. Or "Is
there something known as the Walls?" There are a variety of
questions you can come up with, to sort of screen some things. Iíve
also found that there will often be a part called "Black Master," a
part called "Master Programmer," and that there will be computer
operators inside. How many of you have come into computer things in
patients? There will typically be computer operators: Computer
Operator Black, Computer Operator Green, Computer Operator Purple.
Sometimes theyíll have numbers instead, sometimes theyíll be called
Systems Information Directors. You can find out the head one of
those. Thereíll be a source of some information for you. I will ask
inside, "Is there a part inside named Dr. Green?" Youíll find that
there are, if they have this kind of programming, in my experience.
Usually with a little work and reframing, you can turn them and help
them to realize that they were really a child-part whoís playing a
role and they had no choice then, but they do now. You know, they
played their role very, very well, but they donít have to continue
to play it with you because theyíre safe here and in fact,
the Cult simply found out that you talked to me, that they you
had shared information with me, you tell me what would they do to
you?" Emphasize that the only way out is through me and that they
need to cooperate and share information and help me and that Iíll
help them. So all these parts can give you various information.
Now they have tried to protect this very carefully. Let me give you
an example with Ultra-Green. I discovered this - by the way I used
to think this programming was only in bloodline people. Iíve
discovered it in non-bloodline people, but itís a bit different.
They donít want it to be just the same. I donít think youíll find
deep things like Ultra-Green and probably not even Green Programming
with non-bloodline people. But let me tell you something that I
discovered first in a non-bloodline and then in a bloodline.
We were going along and a patient was close to getting well,
approaching final integration in a non-bloodline and she suddenly
started hallucinating and her fingers were becoming hammers and
other things like that. So I used an affect-bridge and we went back
and we found that what happened was that they gave suggestions, that
if she ever got well to a certain point she would go crazy. The way
they did this was they strapped her down and they gave her LSD when
she was eight years old.
When she began hallucinating they inquired
about the nature of the hallucinations so they could utilize them in
good Ericsonian fashion and build on them and then combine the
drug-effect with powerful suggestions.
"If you ever get to this
point you will go crazy. If you ever get fully integrated and get
well you will go crazy like this and will be locked up in an
institution for the rest of your life."
They gave those suggestions
vigorously and repetitively. Finally they introduced other
suggestions that, "Rather than have this happen, it would be easier
to just kill yourself." In a bloodline patient then, as I began
inquiring about deep material, the patient started to experience
similar symptoms. We went back and we found the identical things
were done to her.
This was called the "Green Bomb." B-O-M-B. Lots of interesting
internal consistencies like that play on words with
his original name. Now in this case it was done to her at age nine
for the first time and then only hers was different. Hers was a
suggestion for amnesia.
"If you ever remember anything about
Ultra-Green and the Green Tree you will go crazy. You will become a
vegetable and be locked up forever."
Then finally the suggestions
added, "And itíll be easier to just kill yourself than have that
happen to you, if you ever remember it."
At age twelve then, three years later, they used what sounds like an
Amytol interview to try to breach the amnesia and find out if they
could. They couldnít. So then they strapped her down again, took and
gave her something to kind of paralyze her body, gave her LSD, an
even bigger dose and reinforced all the suggestions. Did a similar
thing at the age of sixteen. So these are some of the kind of booby
traps you run into.
There are a number of cases where they combined powerful drug
effects like this with suggestions to keep us from discovering some
of this deeper level stuff.
Whatís the bottom? Your guess is as good as mine but I can tell you
that Iíve had a lot of therapists who were stymied with these cases
who were going nowhere. In fact someone here that I told some basic
information about this to in Ohio a couple of months ago said it
opened all sorts of things up in a patient whoíd been going nowhere.
Thatís an often common thing. I think that we can move down to
deeper levels and if we deal with some of the deeper level stuff it
may destroy all the stuff above it. But we donít even know that yet.
In some of the patients Iím working with we have pretty much dealt
with a lot of the top-level stuff. Iíll tell you how weíve done some
of that. Weíll take and erase one system like Omega. Then we will
have a huge abreaction of all the memories and feelings in a
fractionated abreaction associated with those parts.
I typically find Iíll say to them, "Now that weíve done this are
there any other memories and feelings that any parts that were Omega
still have?" The answerís usually "No." At that point I will say,
usually find at this point in time the majority, if not all, of
those parts that used to be Omega no longer feel a desire or need to
be different, realizing that you split off originally by them and
want to go home to Mary and become one with her again."
I use the
concept often now - which came from a patient - of going home and
becoming one with her. "Going back from whence you came" is another
phrase Iíll use with them. "Are there any Omega parts inside who do
not feel comfortable with that or have reservations or concerns
about that?" If there are we talk to them. We deal with them. A few
may not integrate. My experience is most of the time theyíll
integrate and we may integrate twenty-five parts at once in a polyfragmented complex MPD.
I think it is vitally important to abreact the feelings before you
go on. Also for many patients it hasnít seemed to matter the order
we go in but Iíve found a couple where it has. If it doesnít seem to
matter Iíll typically go Omega, then Delta because they have more
violence potential, then Gamma to get rid of the self- deception
stuff. What I will do before I just assume anything and do that, is
once weíve done Omega and showed them that success can occur and
something can happen and they feel relief after, I will say to them,
"I want to ask the core
- through the fingers - is there a
specific order in which programs must be erased?"
You know maybe it
doesnít matter but most of the time I found "No." There are cases
where we found "Yes." I recommend doing one or two or three of those
because theyíll produce relief and and a sense of optimism in the
patient. But then I would recommend starting to probe for the deeper
level things and getting their input and recommendations about the
order in which we go. Question?
Q: What has been the typical age and typical gender of this type of
Dr.H: I know of this being found in men and women. Most of the
patients I know with MPD ritual abuse that are being treated are
women, however. I know of some men being treated where weíve found
this. A while back I was talking to a small group of therapists
somewhere. I told them about some of this. In the middle of talking
about some of this all the color drained out of one social workerís
face and she obviously had a reaction and I asked her about and she
said, "Iím working with a five-year-old boy," and she said, "Just in
the last few weeks he was saying something about a Dr. Green."
I went on a little further and I mentioned some of these things and
she just shook her head again. I said, "Whatís going on?" She said,
"Heís been spontaneously telling me about robots and about
think you will find variations of this and that theyíve changed it,
probably every few years and maybe somewhat regionally to throw us
off in various ways but that certain basics and fundamentals will
probably be there. I have seen this in people up into their forties
including people whose parents were very, very high in the CIA,
other sorts of things like that. Iíve had some that were originally
the Monarch Project which
is the name of the government
Intelligence project. Question in the back?
Q: Iím still not grasping how one starts, how you find out how to
erase. How do you get that information?
Dr.H: I would say, "I want the core, if necessary, using the
telepathic communication ability you have to read minds," because
they believe in that kind of stuff, "so Iíll use it..." I was
trained in Ericsonian stuff, "...to obtain for me the erasure code
of all Omega programs. When youíve done so, I want the yes-finger to
float up." Then I ask them to tell it to me. "Are there backups for
Omega programs?" "Yes." "Okay? How many backups are there?" "Six,"
they say, letís say. Itís different numbers. "Is there an erasure
code for all the backup programs?" "No." "Is there an erasure code
that combines all the backups into one?" "Yes." "Obtain that code
for me and when youíve go it give me the yes-signal again." It can
move almost that fast in some cases where thereís not massive
Q: Yes, can you tell me what you know about the risks to the
Dr.H: You would have to ask.
Q: Yeah, Iíd like to know that. What kind of data do you have given
that youíve had contact with large numbers of people. Not just
threats but also any injury, any family problems that have arisen.
Thatís one question. A second one is are you aware of anybody that
youíve treated - or others - with this level of dissociation and
trauma that have recovered? Integrated? Whole and happy?
Okay, I have one non-bloodline multiple, complex multiple who
had this kind of programming where they have a lot of access to the
patient as neighbors and where the doctor, by the way, youíll find
physicians heavily involved. Theyíve encouraged their own to go to
medical school, to prescribe drugs to take care of their own, to get
access to medical technology and be above suspicion.
There have been a couple, in fact, in Utah whoíve been nailed now.
We now in Utah have two full time ritual-abuse investigators with
statewide jurisdiction under the Attorney Generalís Office to do
nothing but investigate this.
Okay? In a poll done in the
State of Utah in January by the major
newspaper and television station, they found that ninety percent of
Utahans believe that ritual abuse is genuine and real. Not all of
them believe itís a frequent occurrence but some of that was
imparted from two years of work by the Governor Commission on Ritual
Abuse, interviewing, talking, meeting people, gathering data.
Now when people say, by the way, "Thereís no evidence. Theyíve never
found a body," thatís baloney. They found a body in Idaho of a
child. Theyíve had a case last summer that was convicted on
first-degree murder charges, two people that the summer before that
were arrested where the teenaged girlís finger and head were in the
refrigerator and they were convicted of first-degree murder in
Detroit. There have been cases and bodies.
Back to risk. I know of no therapist whoís been harmed. But patients
inform us that there will come a future time where we could be at
risk of being assassinated by patients whoíve been programmed to
kill at a certain time anyone that theyíve told and any member of
their own family whoís not active. If that would come about is
speculative. Who knows for sure? Maybe, but I donít think itís
entirely without risk. A question in the back?
Q: It seems to me that there seems to be some similarity between
these kinds of programming and those people who claim that theyíve
been abducted by spaceships and have had themselves physically
probed and reprogrammed and all of that sort of thing. Since Cape
Canaveral is across the Florida peninsula from me and I donít think
that theyíve reported any spaceships lately, I was just wondering is
there any sort of relationship between this and that?
Dr.H: Iíll share my speculation, that comes from others really. Iíve
not dealt with any of those people. However, I know a therapist that
I know and trust and respect who Iíve informed about all this a
couple of years ago and has found it in a lot of patients and so on,
who is firmly of the belief that those people are in fact
ritual-abuse victims who have been programmed with that sort of
thing to destroy all their credibility. If somebodyís coming in and
reporting abduction by a flying sauce whoís going to believe them on
anything else in the future? Also as a kind of thing that can be
pointed to and said, "This is as ridiculous as that."
All I know is that I recently had a consult, a telephone consult,
with a therapist where I had been instructing her about some of this
kind of stuff. When we were consulting at one point in the fifth or
sixth interview she said, "By the way, do you know anything about
this topic?" I said, "Well, not really" and shared with her what I
shared with you. I said, "If it were me being with this guy..." that
sheíd been seeing for a couple of months, I said, "I would ask
inside for the core to take control of finger-signals and inquire
about Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta." She proceeded to do all that, got
back to me a week later and said, "Boy, were you on target. There is
a part inside named Dr. Green. Thereís this kind of programming."
Q: Whatís the difference between this kind of program and
abuse and Satanic abuse in the kind of cults with the candles and
Dr.H: This type of programming will be done in
the cults with the
candles and all the rest. My impression is this is simply done in
people where they have great access to them or theyíre bloodline and
their parents are in it and they can be raised in it from an early
age. If they are bloodline they are the chosen generation. If not,
theyíre expendable and they are expected to die and not get well.
There will be booby traps in your way if they arenít non-bloodline
people that when they get well they will kill themselves. Iíll tell
you just a little about that. My belief is that some people that
have ritual abuse and donít have this have been ritually abused but
they may be may be part of a non-mainstream group. The Satanism
comes in the overall philosophy overriding all of this.
People say, "Whatís the purpose of it?" My best guess is that the
purpose of it is that they want an army of Manchurian Candidates,
ten of thousands of mental robots who will do prostitution, do child
pornography, smuggle drugs, engage in international arms smuggling,
do snuff films, all sorts of very lucrative things and do their
bidding and eventually the megalomaniacs at the top believe theyíll
create a Satanic Order that will rule the world. One last question.
Then Iíll give you couple of details and we need to shift gears.
Q: You have suggested and implied that at some point
at a high level
of the U.S. Government there was support of this kind of thing. I
know weíre short of time, but could you just say a few words about
the documentation that may exist for that suggestion?
There isnít great documentation of it. It comes from victims
who are imperiled witnesses. The interesting thing is how many
people have described the same scenario and how many people that we
have worked with who have had relatives in NASA, in the CIA and in
the Military, including very high-ups in the Military.
I can tell you that a friend and colleague of mine who has probably
the equivalent of half the table space on that far side of the room
filled with boxes with declassified documents from mind-control
research done in the past which has been able to be declassified
over a considerable - couple of decades - period and has read more
government documents about mind control than anyone else, has a
brief that has literally been sent in the past week and a half
asking for all information to be declassified about the Monarch
Project for us to try to find out more.
Now let me just mention something about some of the stuff that my
experience is in several patients now that you may run into late in
the process. I know Iím throwing a lot at you in a hurry. Some of it
is completely foreign and some of you may think, "Gosh, could any of
this be true?" Just, you know, ask. Find out in your patients and
you may be lucky and there isnít any of this. Somewhere at a deep
level you may run into some things like this. Let me describe to
you, if I can find my pen, the system in one patient. One patient I
had treated for quite a while, a non-bloodline person.
We had done what appeared to be successful work and reached final
integration. She came back to me early last year and said she was
symptomatic with some things. I started inquiring. I found a part
there weíd integrated. The part basically said,
"There was other
stuff that I couldnít tell you about and you integrated me and so I
had to split off."
I had done some inquiring about things like
Alpha, Beta as a routine part of it and found they were there and I
said to this part,
"Why didnít you tell me about this stuff?" She
said, "Well, we gave you some hints but they went right over your
head." Says, "Iím sorry, but we know that you didnít know enough to
help us but now we know you can."
So the stuff started coming out.
It was interesting.
She described the overall system - if I can remember it now
being like this.
The circle represented harm to the body, a system
of alters whose primary purpose was to hurt her including symptoms
like Munchhausenís, self-mutilation, other kinds of things.
the triangles represented still another different system.
"With the exception of me," this one part, "you dealt with the whole
circle with the work that we did before but you didnít touch the
rest of the stuff."
Okay. In the middle of all this was still another system consisting
of the Cabalistic Tree, which some of you are aware, looks
approximately like this with lines in between and so on and so
forth. Thereís a rough approximation. That represented another
system. Then once we got past that she implied that this entire
thing was somehow encompassed by, what do you call it, an hourglass.
I kept thinking we were at final integration then Iíd find some
other parts. This person had an eagle-eye husband that was watching
for certain things that we found to be reliable indicators. So often
I would get evidence of dissociation within a few days. It would
suddenly be picked up. You know, what we found was I continued to
find evidence of dissociation and Iíd find parts. Finally this part,
as I got angry with him and said,
"Why when I give these ideomotor
inquiries am I getting lied to?" This part said, "Because you donít
understand. Youíre going to get us all killed."
We started talking and then she basically said,
"Itís been programmed
so that if you succeed and think youíve succeeded, you will fail.
They build it in as a way to laugh at you, that if you ever get us
integrated, we will die."
Hereís what she said, this part said, "Iím one of twelve disciples,"
and Iíve seen this in others, twelve disciples within this hourglass
each of whom had to memorize a disciple-lesson which were basic
Satanic kind of premises, philosophies of life like "be good to
those who hurt you, hate those who are nice to you," on and on and
on. There may be two or three sentences like that associated with
each that they had to memorize them.
"We are like grains of sand falling and when the last
grain of sand falls, thereís Death."
I said, "Is Death a part?"
"Yes. When the last grain of sand falls the Sleeping Giant awakens."
The Sleeping Giant was Death, who was then to kill them on Day-One
or Day-Six after awakening unless certain things were followed and
we did some of those.
Well we also found Death had a sister as a backup, used with mirrors
to create the sister part. We had to get past and deal with that
too. Death had certain things that they said had to be done to
integrate. I started to say,
"Oh, come on, they lied to you before."
She said, "Wait a minute. This what they said youíd say. They said
that no doctor would ever believe that they had to go these extremes
to get us well and thatís part of the reason theyíd fail."
"Well, tell me, tell me again."
She said, "I have to be dressed all in red. I have to have Demerol
onboard, have taken Demerol. A code has to be given and it has to be
in a room thatís totally dark. It has to happen on Day-One or
Day-Six after this partís been awakened."
I said what Iíd have to lose? I had a psychiatrist give her a little
Demerol. We used the code. My office didnít have any windows anyway.
It was pretty easy. Oh, and there had to be four, I think, candles
lit. Well, fine. So we did it and everything went well. Maybe it
would have gone well if we hadnít done it, but I decided not to take
the chance and to trust the patient maybe. Well, so we go on and
then we find another part. Thereís Death And Destruction, another
backup also with a sister that we had to get through. In fact, I
think there were two backups there. Interestingly, the very last
part was an extremely nice part, made especially that way so that
they wouldnít want to lose them because they would be so adorable
and so loving and so sweet that they wouldnít want to maybe get rid
of them. Then we found that she continued to have these feelings
with this last part left now of darkness and blackness inside. What
did we find? A curtain.
She said, "They assumed that if you ever got to this point, you
would," and along the way, by the way, we had encountered this stuff
about the LSD stuff, the Green Bomb programming. The message was
that she said,
"There is a curtain behind which are the remaining
feelings and memories, but it canít be opened from the middle. Itís
like a stage curtain. It has to opened this way," that it canít be
They assumed that you would try to deal with all the
feelings. That canít be opened until youíve dealt with that last
part and theyíve integrated. So far it looks like weíve got
integration thatís holding. So I found Death And Destruction and the
Hourglass in non-bloodline.
"The Tree and the Hourglass," this patient informed me, "were made
of sand because we were meant to die. Weíre expendable. Weíre the unchosen generation."
Iíve heard variously that itís crystals or blood that fills the
Hourglass in bloodline people. By the way, you can do real simple
things like turn the Hourglass on its side so nothing can fall out,
so time stands still to be able to do certain kinds of work. Spread
the grains of sand on the seashore so that they canít be numbered
and the time will not be counted. Got that idea from a ritual-abuse
victim who had seen some of this kind of programming done that
another therapist was seeing.
So those would be just a few other hints about things that may be
helpful or meaningful. Weíre talking about very intensive things and
at deep levels to to me this give us two things. One thing it gives
to me is hope because it gets to material and it makes progress like
nothing else weíve ever seen with these people who have it. The
second thing it does for me is it demoralizes me, too, because
although three years ago I had a pretty good idea about the extent
and breadth of what theyíd one to these victims, I had no real
appreciation for the depth and breadth and intensity of what theyíd
I want to come back to the other question over here now. The other
question is how many of them can get well?
We donít know. In most things in the mental health profession we
accept two-thirds of the patients are going to improve, maybe
seventy percent. Thereís very little we can get everybody well. I
think one of the sad things we have to face is that many of these
patients will probably never be well. My personal belief is that if
they are being messed with their only hope of getting well is if
they can somehow get out of contact.
Now I know patients whoíve gone to other states and simply had
deep-level alters pick up the phone and call and said, "This is our
new address and phone number" so that they could be picked up
locally. I mean in an inpatient unit for an extended period of time.
If they are in a Cult from their area and they are still being
monitored and messed with, my own personal opinion is we canít get
them well and canít offer more than humanitarian caring and
Lots of therapists do not like to hear that. Thatís my opinion. I
believe that if somehow theyíre lucky enough to be wealthy enough to
have protection, to have somehow gotten away in some way and we can
work with them without being messed with, that they have a chance to
reach some semblance of normality and livability with enough
intensive work. My own personal belief is I donít think anybody with
this kind of programming is well in this country yet. There are some
who are well along the way. Iíve got a couple who are well along in
their work and have done a tremendous amount, but theyíre clearly
not well yet.
Q: Could you speculate on the relationship between this stuff and
the fantasy games that have been proliferating, Dungeons and Dragons
and that sort of thing?
Dr.H: Well, there are a lot of things out there to cue people. You
want to see a great movie, interesting movie, to cue people? Go see
"Trancers II." You can rent it in your video shop. Came out last
fall. One night in sheer desperation for something at the video
store, you know? Nine oíclock on Friday night. Everythingís gone. I
rented a couple of movies and one of them is that. Fascinating.
Theyíre talking about Green World Order. Yes, "Trancers II." And who
is the production company? Full Moon Productions. I couldnít see
much cuing in "Trancers I," but whoís the production company in "Trancers
I"? Alter Productions. There are lots of things around that are
Thereís an interesting person in the late sixties who talked about
the Illuminati. Have any of you ever heard of
the Illuminati with
regard to the Cult? Had a patient bring that up to me just about
exactly two years ago. Weíve now had other stuff come out from other
patients. Appears to be the name of the international world
leadership. There appear to be Illuminatic Counsels in several parts
of the world and one internationally. The name of the international
leadership of the Cult supposedly. Is this true? well, I donít know.
Itís interesting weíre getting some people who are trying to work
without cuing who are saying some very similar things. There was an
old guy in Hollywood in the late sixties who talked about the
infiltration of Hollywood by the Illuminati.
Certainly what some patients have said is all of this spook stuff,
horror stuff, possession and everything else thatís been popularized
in the last twenty years in Hollywood is in order to soften up the
public so that when a Satanic world order takes over, everyone will
have been desensitized to so many of these things, plus to
continually cue lots of people out there. is that true?
Well, I canít definitely tell you that it is. What I can say is I
now believe that ritual-abuse programming is widespread, is
systematic, is very organized from highly esoteric information which
is published nowhere, has not been on any book or talk show, that we
have found all around this country and at least one foreign country.
Letís take a couple of quick questions and we need to get on to
other material. Yes?
Q: Do you have any techniques for decreasing your level of
uncertainty that a patient is or is not being still tampered with,
"messed with," as you said?
Dr.H: Just that I would ask several of the parts Iíve inquired
about, Core, Diana, Wisdom, Master Programmer, several parts inside
I would ask about these sorts of things and I will keep asking it.
As you do additional work and get a bit further, I would ask again
to find out. In the back?
Q: I wonder if youíve heard or you know of the
Dr.H: The what?
Q: Martin Luther Bloodline?
Dr.H: I know nothing about Martin Luther Bloodline. Iíll give you
one other quick tip. Ask him about an identification code. Thereís
an identification code that people have. It will involve their birth
date. It may involve places where they were programmed and it will
usually involve a number in there that will be their birth order,
like zero-two if they were second-born. It will usually involve a
number that represents the number of generations in the Cult, if
they are bloodlines. Iíve seen up to twelve now, twelve generations.
Q: I have seen a lot of the things youíve been describing today in
several patients. I wanted to ask you a question about the Seven
Systems. You mentioned something about systems here. Are there Seven
Dr.H: There has been that described in some patients, yes, the
Q: Could you say what that is or a little diagram?
Dr.H: I donít think we know enough to know what it is, honestly. I
think it may have to do with Seven Cabalistic Trees.
Q: Have you ever had any evidence where any of these people have
been tagged and there have been anything of their body-parts that
might be related to this, private parts in particular?
Dr.H: Well, there are certainly people that have had tattoos, that
have had a variety of other kinds of things, some of which have
been, you know, documented in cases, but I mean to say, well, maybe
they did that to themselves or had it done consciously to really
prove something, not that occurs to right off the bat. Let me just
take this one last question back and we need to go on to other
material because weíre never going to get through it all. Iíll just
ask you to hold your question.
Q: Itís not a question but I wanted to say for myself, personally,
and perhaps for others here as well, I wanted to thank you very
sincerely for taking this time to come forward.
Q: Does anyone want to join us for a standing ovation for this
material? Itís wonderful.
Dr.H: A dear friend whoís one of the top people in the field, who I
know has had death threats, but I know struggled for professional
credibility in believing in MPD and was harshly criticized for even
believing in that ten and fifteen years ago, and struggled to a
point of professional credibility. I think in his heart of hearts he
knows itís true, but he will say things like,
"I wouldnít be
surprised to find tomorrow it was an international conspiracy and I
wouldnít be surprised to find tomorrow that it is an urban myth and
He tries to stay right on the fence and the reason is because itís
controversial, because there is a campaign underway saying these all
false memories induced by, along with incest and everything else, by
"Oprah" and by books like "The Courage to Heal" and by naive
therapists using hypnosis. Itís controversial.
My personal opinion has come to be if theyíre going to kill me,
theyíre going to kill me. Thereís going to be an awful lot of
information thatís been put away thatíll go to investigative
reporters and multiple investigative agencies, if it happens, and an
awful lot of people like you , I hope, that if I ever have an
accident will be pushing for a very large-scale investigation. I
think we have to stand up as some kind of moral conscience at some
point and I tried to wait until we had gotten enough verification
from independent places to have some real confidence that this was
widespread. I know weíve gone like a house afire to try to pack as
much as I could in for you. I hope itís given you some things to
think about and some new ideas and I appreciate being with you.
[Long sustained applause]