FILE ORIGINATES FROM: <<UFONET I>>
UPLOADED BY: Tom Mickus
DATE OF UPLOAD: JAN/14/1990

from GreatDreams Website

 

 

The Falcon and the Snow-Job - Part 1

FACTOID: In 1947, the Air Force knew that a shiny metallic surface makes an object show up better on radar, so they used aluminum foil to make radar reflectors for their weather balloons. However, by 1955, they had forgotten this fact, so they painted the first U-2 spy planes silver, which would have made them easily detectable by radar as they flew over the U.S.S.R. on reconnaissance missions. Their silvery appearance also caused people to mistake them for UFOs, according to CIA historians. Sometime later they realized their mistake and began to paint them black, thus creating the first "stealth" aircraft.


(Uncle Phaedís UFO Investigatorís Handbook)

 

 

 

Who is former AFOSI Special Agent Richard C. Doty?

Itís not easy to find information about Doty prior to 1980. The only information available is a few scraps in various UFO books plus the information that can be gleaned from four files that are online. These files consist of Dotyís reputed Air Force discharge papers, a telephone interview that Phil Klass had with Doty on 1/8/88, and two letters purportedly written by Doty (3/3/89 and 4/4/89). However, there is not a lot of information in these files.

In the transcript of the telephone interview with Klass, Doty says that his father, Edward Doty, was in the Air Force, was an investigator for Project Bluebook, was at Holloman AFB from 1962 to 1964, and was involved in the investigation of the 1964 UFO landing case at Socorro, New Mexico. However, in a letter dated 3/3/89, Doty says that it was an uncle, not his father, that was a Bluebook investigator.

In his 3/3/89 letter, Doty says:

While assigned to the AFOSI District 70 Headquarters, Weisbaden, West Germany, I performed duties as a counterespionage specialist. In 1986, I was involved in a sensitive operation where I attempted to perform certain duties which would enable our team to trap possible foreign agents working against the interests of the United States. My supervisors, however, seen my actions as being unauthorized. Therefore, I was asked to leave AFOSI, which I did voluntarily. I accepted a position at Kirtland AFB, in Albuquerque, NM, where my son was residing with my former spouse.

Apparently, Doty was at Kirtland at least twice. We know he was there in 1980, since that is when the Bennewitz affair took place, and here he says that he transferred back to Kirtland in 1986.

He goes on to say (someone had said he finished his Air Force service as a cook):

My last two years of service was in the Services career field, but not as a cook.

Sgt. Doty retired from the U.S. Air Force on October 1, 1988. His letters give a post office box in Grants, New Mexico as a return address. He says in one of the letters that he does not live in New Mexico, but only maintains a forwarding service there. One of his letters says that his present job involves investigations, but nothing to do with UFOs. An unverified source said that he is a New Mexico State Policeman in Grants.

The first we hear of Richard C. Doty is in the summer of 1980. He was the AFOSI officer who took Craig Weitzelís report of seeing a UFO near Kirtland. You will recall from our feature "Kirtland AFB Sightings, Part 2" that, later in 1980, APRO received an anonymous letter that embellished Weitzelís report considerably, turning it from a sighting report into a close encounter. According to Robert Hastings, analysis later showed that this letter had been typed on the same typewriter that had been used to type the original Weitzel sighting report. This report was signed "Richard C. Doty." The validity of this analysis, however, is not clear.

A short time after the Weitzel sighting, Paul Bennewitz contacted Kirtland AFB with his stories of UFOs over Manzano and of receiving low frequency alien communications. Once again, Agent Doty was the AFOSI officer assigned to investigate.

According to William Moore, by the time he was sent to investigate Bennewitzís claims in 1982, Doty had been feeding the man disinformation for two years. See the previous feature The Destruction of Paul Bennewitz for more on this. Moore further claims that he was recruited by someone who called himself Falcon to assist in feeding disinformation about UFOs to Bennewitz, and that his liason with Falcon was Doty. It appears, though, that Moore had already known Doty for at least a year, since he claims Doty gave him a copy of the Project Aquarius Document in February of 1981, according to Curtis Peebles. The information here is very sketchy, and is, as best I can tell, based entirely on statements from Moore.

Richard Doty says that, whatever he did, he did it under orders.

  • If so, what was the purpose of those orders?

  • It appears almost certain that the intent was to draw attention away from the actual sightings at Manzano and Coyote Canyon. Why?

  • What was being protected?

  • Was the Air Force really testing UFOs at Manzano?

  • Or were UFOs visiting Manzano?

  • Or were top-secret SDI weapons being tested at Manzano?

One thing is for certain. Almost as soon as the relationship between Richard C. Doty and William L. Moore began, copies of purported classified government documents regarding UFOs suddenly began appearing, as we shall see in the next part of this series:

 

 

 

The Falcon and the Snow-Job - Part 2

And be these juggling fiends no more believíd,
That palter with us in a double sense;
That keep the word of promise to our ear
And break it to our hope.
(Macbeth, act 5, scene vii, line 48 - William Shakespeare)

ACT I:

Late in 1972, according to Timothy Goodís Alien Contact, film producers Robert Emenegger and Allan Sandler were approached by U.S. Air Force officers about making a documentary on UFOs. The Air Force, it seemed, was now ready to "spill the beans", ready to throw open the doors of "Hangar 18" and the "blue room".

The two producers were, according to them, invited to the Pentagon, where they met with Air Force Colonels William Coleman and George Weinbrenner, who showed them movies and stills of gray aliens, including one who they said survived a crash and lived for three years.

Then, in 1973, Emenegger and Sadler were invited to Norton AFB, California, where they met with the head of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI - the same department that Richard Doty worked for...) and Paul Shartle, former head of security and chief of the audiovisual program at Norton AFB. At this meeting, they were told that film existed of an April, 1964 UFO landing at Holloman AFB, Alamogordo, New Mexico. When the craft landed, three aliens with eyes like a catís stepped out and communicated with the base commander and two scientists by using some sort of "translator". Emenegger and Sadker were promised the use of this film for their documentary, but the offer was withdrawn a short time later.

When interviewed in 1988, Paul Shartle would say that the Air Force had told him that the film was "theatrical footage" that had been purchased to make a training film.

In a phone interview with Phil Klass, Richard Doty purportedly said that his family was at Holloman AFB in April, 1964, presumably because his father, Edward Doty, was stationed there.

ACT II:

On February 9, 1978, a curious document, an apparent carbon copy of an official U.S. Air Force incident report, arrived at the office of The National Enquirer in Lantana, Florida. Accompanying the document was an unsigned letter dated "29 Jan."

The report and the letter described a close encounter with an alien that supposedly took place at Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota on 16 November 1977.

Although the names mentioned in the report were those of actual persons on active duty at Ellsworth, even The National Enquirer thought the report was a hoax. They said:

We found more than 20 discrepancies or errors in the report -wrong names, numbers, occupations, physical layouts and so on. Had the Security Option alert mentioned in the report taken place, it would have involved all security personnel at the base and everyone at the base and in Rapid City (Population 45,000 plus) would have known about it.

According to Dotyís purported Air Force discharge papers, he was stationed at Ellsworth from 1976 to 1978. According to Jacques Valleeís Revelations, William Moore claimed that Doty admitted to him that had forged the Ellsworth Document. However, there is supposedly an Inspector Generalís Report on this incident that states that the perpetrator was not Doty, but someone else.

ACT III

According to Howard Blumís Out There, William Moore first became interested in UFOs when he was a teenager, after reading about the Aztec "crash" in Frank Scullyís Behind the Flying Saucers. He joined NICAP(National Investigation Committee on Aerial Phenomena) while in college at Thiel College in Pennsylvania in the sixties, and remained a member after beginning his teaching career in New York.

In the late seventies, Bill Moore co-wrote The Philadelphia Experiment with Charles Berlitz. The book became a best-seller, and in 1979, Moore decided to quit his teaching job in Minnesota and try his hand at writing full-time, with his preferred subject being UFOs.

In Arizona, he joined the Lorenzenís Tucson-based APRO (Aerial Phenomena Research Organization), and soon became one of its directors. He was spending most of his time researching events that had occurred in 1947 in neighboring New Mexico for another book he was writing with Berlitz, The Roswell Incident. Also helping with the research on this book was a well-known UFOlogist, Stanton Friedman. The book was be released in 1980 and was also a best-seller. After this book, Moore broke with Berlitz and he and Friedman teamed up to continue investigating the Roswell case for several years.

After the book became popular, Moore appeared on several radio talk shows about Roswell and UFOs. He relates that twice, after radio appearances in the month of September, 1980, he received phone calls from someone who only said, "Youíre the only person weíve ever heard who seems to be on the right track." The second caller suggested that they meet. Moore drove to a coffee-shop in Albuquerque and met, for the first time, the individual he refers to as the Falcon.

The Falcon, who Moore said was a well-placed individual within the intelligence community who claimed to be directly connected to a high-level government project dealing with UFOs, met with Moore several times over a period of months and then offered him a deal: He and the group he represented would help Moore in his quest for the truth about UFOs if Moore would consent to help them by feeding disinformation to, and by reporting to them on, ..... Paul Bennewitz! According to Moore, his contact during this was not be the Falcon himself, but was.... Richard C. Doty!

Moore allegedly functioned as something of a "triple agent" for about four years. He was friends with Paul Bennewitz while reporting on his activities to both APRO and to Doty, and feeding Bennewitz disinformation from Doty and/or the Falcon. Moore said later that he went along with this offer because he saw it as his only chance to get "inside" information about governmental UFO activities. See The Destruction of Paul Bennewitz for more about this.

 

 

The Falcon and the Snow-Job - Part 3

Red Herring ...A herring that is cured by smoking turns red. It also has a strong odor, and hunting dogs were often trained to follow a scent by means of a red herring that had been dragged along the ground. On the other side of the coin, people who opposed fox hunting sometimes drew a red herring across the path of the fox; the dogs would give up on the fox and follow the scent of the herring.
(The Dictionary of Cliches by James Rogers)

ACT IV

In February, 1981, according to Curtis Peeblesí Watch the Skies, Richard C. Doty gave Bill Moore a copy of a classified teletype document that spoke of the governmentís secret investigation of UFOs, of a Project Aquarius and of something called MJ-Twelve. This was the first known mention of those two terms.

The following year, Moore and a former National Enquirer reporter named Robert Pratt discussed writing a novel about the adventures of an Air Force intelligence officer and calling it The Aquarius Project. According to Peebles, the novel was actually finished, but was never published.

In the spring of 1982, a TV station, KPIX in San Francisco, hired Moore as a consultant for a UFO special. Moore, who was now living in Los Angeles, was assisted by his friends Jaime Shandera, a television producer, and Stanton Friedman, the UFOlogist. Moore gave a copy of the Aquarius teletype to KPIX, and they asked the Air Force to verify its authenticity. KPIX was told by the AFOSI that the document was a forgery, that it had several flaws that identified it as such. Moore, according to Peebles, admitted that he had retyped the document and had added an "official-looking date stamp."

Moore arranged a meeting with Doty that included Ron Lakis of KPIX and Peter Gersten, a lawyer specializing in FOIA requests for UFO documents. Doty allegedly told them that he had been investigating UFOs for several years for the AFOSI and that he had access to top-secret documents related to UFOs. Doty also allegedly told them about secret treaties with the aliens and that Project Aquarius involved contact with aliens. He reportedly said that he knew of three UFO crashes that had been recovered and that alien bodies were in the governmentís possession. He also mentioned that the government practiced "disinformation" and was conditioning the public to accept the aliens.

ACT V

In the spring of 1983, according to Timothy Good in Alien Contact, William Moore received a phone call from someone who said that he would be allowed to see some important information if he followed the instructions he was given. The instructions involved flying from one airport to another, getting phone instructions as to the next destination at each stop, until finally he ended up at a motel in upstate New York. At a certain time, an individual arrived at the motel room with an envelope containing eleven pages. Moore was told:

You have exactly nineteen minutes. You may do whatever you wish with the material during that time, but at the end of that time, I must have it back. After that, you are free to do what you wish.

The eleven pages were something called a TOP SECRET/ORCON document titled Executive Briefing. Subject: Project Aquarius dated June 14, 1977. Moore was allowed to photograph the documents and to read their contents into a tape recorder.

The documents detailed the recovery of a crashed alien craft and a live alien in 1949, and the recovery of a fully functioning alien craft in Utah in 1958. It detailed several "projects" involved with aliens and UFOs:

  1. Project Bando: Medical studies of alien bodies recovered from crashes and of the live alien rescued from the crash in 1949 in New Mexico.

  2. Project Sigma: A project to establish communications with the aliens.

  3. Project Snowbird: Testing and flight of a recovered alien craft.

  4. Project Pounce: An overall evaluation project.

Note the similarities of this document with the one shown to Linda Moulton Howe in the next act.

ACT VI

In April, 1983, Linda Moulton Howe, who had produced an excellent documentary about cattle mutilations called Strange Harvest, was working on a new script about UFOs for HBO. The evening before her meeting with the HBO people, Howe had dinner with an attorney named Peter Gersten. Gersten told Howe that he had met with Richard C. Doty, an AFOSI agent at Kirtland AFB, and perhaps Doty would be willing to talk on camera or in some other helpful capacity about a UFO incident that had supposedly occurred at Ellsworth AFB in South Dakota in 1978. Gersten offered to call him and ask if he would be willing to meet with Howe.

Arrangements were made for Howe to fly to Albuquerque on April 9, where Doty would meet her at the airport. Doty was not there when she arrived, but he later picked her up at Jerry Millerís house. Miller, a former Project Bluebook investigator, was acquainted with Doty.

On the way from Millerís house to Kirtland AFB, Howe asked Doty, whose manner she said was both defiant and nervous, if he knew anything about the Holloman landing. Doty reportedly said it happened on April 25, 1964, just 12 hours after the famous sighting reported by policeman Lonnie Zamora in Socorro, New Mexico. Military and scientific personnel at the base knew a landing was coming, but "someone blew the time and coordinates" and an "advance military scout ship" had come down at the wrong time and place, and were seen by Zamora.

According to Howe, when they got to Kirtland, Doty took her to a small office where he showed her a brown envelope and said, "My superiors have asked me to show you this." He withdrew several sheets of white paper from the envelope. As he handed them to Howe, he warned her that they could not be copied; all she could do was read them in his presence and ask questions.

The document was titled Briefing Paper for the President of the United States of America. It described UFO crashes, alien bodies, and an alien who survived one of the crashes. The paper listed several government UFO projects:

  1. Project Garnet: an investigation into human evolution.

  2. Project Sigma: efforts to communicate with aliens.

  3. Project Snowbird: R & D of alien technology recovered from UFO crashes.

  4. Project Aquarius: The umbrella program involving alien contact.

Doty allegedly told Howe that she would be given several thousand feet of film taken of aliens, including the Holloman AFB landing in 1964. The film never materialized.

Howe says that Doty also promised her an interview with a Colonel who had become friends with an alien who had survived a crash and lived for three years. The offer never materialized as the interview was repeatedly set up and then cancelled. HBO told Howe that she would have to have all the evidence in her possession before they would authorize any funds. Doty finally told Howe the project was kaput and Howeís contract with HBO expired.

Doty would later deny all of this, although Howe swore out a signed affidavit that it all occurred. Doty is said to have passed a polygraph examination that supported his version of the interview.

ACT VII

In Jacques Valleeís Revelations, he tells how, in early 1985, Robert Emenegger was approached again by Colonel William Coleman (see The Falcon and the Snow-Job, Part 1), who was now retired and living in Florida, with yet another offer. If Emenegger could convince Allen Hynek and Vallee to get involved, then the government would be willing to release "final" evidence of UFOs. Emenegger was convinced that the offer was on the level, particularly after a meeting with General Glenn E, Miller, deputy director of the Defense Audiovisual Agency (DAVA), but Hynek and Vallee proceeded cautiously.

Hynek was invited to Norton AFB in California to meet with General Miller and his boss, DAVA director General Robert Scott. Vallee was later invited to Norton as well. They came away with no new information, just hints and the impression that they had been talking to two wild-eyed UFO contactees rather than two Air Force officers. Vallee still puzzles over the purpose of these meetings. Were they an attempt to find out how much Hynek and Vallee knew? Were they tentative steps toward discrediting two of the top names in UFOlogy? Were they an opening gambit for piping more disinformation into the field? Meanwhile, Moore, Shandera, and Friedman were studying the MJ-12 documents....

 


 

 


Richard (Rick) C. Doty

Telephone interview: Jan. 8, 1988
(Highlight/Excerpts)
 

NOTE: The file is reproduced verbatim. Use of CAPITALIZATION is evidently the work of the author of this transcript. Additionally, all personal comments and characterizations contained within, are also of the authorís.

"PJK:" = Phillip J. Klass
"RCD:" = Richard C. Doty

1. Says unable to meet with PJK this weekend, will not be in the area, returning Thursday/Friday.
2. He asked what he could do for me and I said I wanted to get him comments on allegations against him in Just Cause and in MUFOn Journal. Said he has seen both.

PJK: Are you planning to take any action?

RCD: Iíve already taken action. Iíve an attorney that last summer took some action on my behalf regarding the allegation that I allegedly had leaked these documents.

PJK Note: But that allegation would not made publicly by Greenwood until Sept. 1987}} And Greenwood, Gersten, Moore and a couple other people were involved. WELL, I HAVE AN AFFIDAVIT SIGNED BY BILL MOORE THAT WAS EXECUTED IN COURT WITH MY ATTORNEY PRESENT THAT SAYS THAT BILL MOORE NEVER, EVER RECEIVED ANYTHING FROM ME OTHER THAN SOME BITS AND PIECES ABOUT AN INCIDENT THAT HAPPENED AT KIRTLAND IN 1980. PJK doubts this could have occurred in the few months since allegations were made public.

"HE GAVE THE PERSONíS NAME IN THE AFFIDAVIT THAT HE RECEIVED THE DOCUMENTS FROM, AND THIS PERSON--I DONíT KNOW HIM--THIS PERSON IS IN WASHINGTON D.C. AND MY ATTORNEY WENT TO WASHINGTON D.C. AND SPOKE TO THIS PERSON AND HE DENIED EVER GIVING BILL MOORE ANYTHING ALTHOUGH HE SAID HE HAD REGULAR CONTACT WITH BILL MOORE.

PJK: Very doubtful claim

So, allegedly, Peter Gersten was given this information and then apologized saying that they never had any concrete information that I had given him anything anyways, but they had kind of put two and two together and thought that it must have come from me.

PJK: You say that Moore signed an affidavit. Have you made that affidavit public?

RCD: No, no I havenít.

PJK: Do you plan to?

RCD: I donít know. Itís up to the attorney. Again, this happened last year and I have had any further contact with MUFON or the CAUS people. {He later changes this story.} When that article came I was inundated with phone calls and letters and people trying to interview me saying they want to know what this is all about. And I donít even know, I didnít know, I didnít see these documents until October or November.

NOTE: he is referring to the MJ-12 papers, which were first made public in late May/early June, 1987

And I too one look at them and said, these are phony. (Laughs) These arenít even credible documents. What I was shown had some legitimate documents in that was obtained FOIA but these other ones that were released--apparently Bill Moore released it in some kind of a news release.

He claimed to have gotten these in (PJK: In December, 1984). Well I wasnít even in the country, nor would anyone have had access to me in 1984. All these things were started in the lawyerís--I canít remember what the legal term was he used--but the court document refuting the claim that I gave him.

PJK: Would you be willing to give me the name of your lawyer?

RCD: Ah, I can give him your name and he can contact you. But why would you want to know that?

PJK: (Explains I am long-time UFO skeptic/investigator, that if MJ-12 papers were authentic, it would be biggest story for AW&ST. So I dug into MJ-12, found evidence to indicate they are a hoax.)

RCD: Yeah, you just have to look at them. A fifth grader could tell theyíre not properly classified and down grade instructions. Iíve been working in classified for 20 years, from all levels. When my lawyer showed me copies of them--and my lawyer is retired military, of course, and he could tell theyíre phony.

Apparently Gerstenís crew knew they were phony.

PJK: (Explains prevailing view among UFO believers is that MJ-12 is a hoax, but question is who is responsible for producing them.)

RCD: WELL, THE FBI KNOWS THAT. THE FBI KNOWS WHO DID IT. THAT INFORMATION WAS PROVIDED TO THE FBI, THE FBI INTERVIEWED THIS PERSON AND OF COURSE THIS PERSON DENIED HE EVER GAVE THEM TO HIM (Moore).


But I think what this person did was he created the documents--I donít know if Bill Moore was actually involved in it, I donít think he was, but itís a possibility.

The FBI never pursued it, I donít know why, unless they just couldnít. I donít know if there was any law that this guy broke. I donít if that is public record or not, but youíd have to go to the FBI to find out. BUT I KNOW FOR A FACT THEY INTERVIEWED HIM--THIS PERSON IN WASHINGTON D.C.

PJK: And about when would that have been?

RCD: Ah, gee, last year (ie. 1987)

PJK: How would the FBI have located this person in Washington--Iíll call him Mr. X--

RCD: As a matter of fact thatís what William Moore called him, Mr. X.

PJK: Are you suggesting that Moore told the FBI who X is?

RCD: I donít. To tell you the truth I donít remember how--and I donít even know if I was privy to that information as to how the FBI found ought who this guy was, but I think that after this stuff came out the Justice Dept. investigated it or made some inquiries or something and then found out, I donít know how. I donít have that information.

PJK then raises allegations made by CAUS and reads the first:

"In 1984, Linda Moulton Howe, who produced the well-known cattle mutilation film STRANGE HARVEST, was contacted by a government source - CAUS later identifies this source as Doty - to aid in producing a UFO documentary, essentially providing the answer to UFOs. She was invited by the source, briefed on the story, then sworn to secrecy about it until the filmís eventual release. The deal was never completed. Details of the story given to her match the MJ-12 tale, along with much extra detail about contacts with íEBESí -Extraterrestrial Biological Entities - Nordic type aliens called íHighsí and conflicting alien factions."

What can you tell me about your contact with her?

RCD: (Laughs) OK. In my duties, in my official government duties I made contact with her AND I CANíT TELL YOU WHY, I made contact with her for information that she had that she was willing to share with us. The information had nothing to do with UFOs, absolutely nothing to do with UFOs.

PJK note: Howe is a slightly wacky free-lance TV producer who focuses on UFOs, cattle mutilations, UFO-abductions, etc.
--What kind of info would she have that Doty would seek "in an official" capacity--and which is so sensitive he could not tell me??

When she found out I was with a government agency and I was the same one that had investigated the (UFO) incident (at Kirtland) in 1980, she started asking me questions about UFOs, about what I thought about UFOs, and what my beliefs were about them, and if I could tell her anything about what the government had. And I told her, I donít know very much. I can tell you what happened at Kirtland, because I investigated it. Probably it can be explained away.

She said that she had been involved with Budd Hopkins and a number of people who claimed to have been abducted (by UFOs) and then she gives me this whole story about aliens abducting people, and theyíre called EBES, and then she said she had a contact--I later found out who it was--that had showed her some government documents pertaining to MJ-12 and all this other stuff.

But I never, ever originated any contact regarding UFOs with her. Because of our continuing interest in what she was doing--NOT UFOs but to something else--she would ask me questions like what do you think about this, what do you thing about that?

I can tell you that in 1985, excuse me in May, 1986, I TOOK AN EXTENSIVE POLYGRAPH EXAMINATION PERTAINING TO AN ALLEGATION SHE HAD MADE AND I PASSED IT, A GOVERNMENT ADMINISTERED POLYGRAPH, SHOWING I WAS THE ONE TELLING THE TRUTH AND SHE WAS THE ONE LYING.

PJK asks if Howe took a Polygraph test and he says no.

RCD: There was another person involved in this who took a polygraph test and failed it. Thatís why I say I know where she got the information from. Because this person REFUSED (??) AND QUIT GOVERNMENT SERVICE AT THE TIME. Anyway, she would sit down and talk to me for hours about UFOs, but she would do all the talking. She had everything already figured out. She claimed that well I know thereís a ship FLYING ABOVE THE ARCTIC THAT ARE COLLECTING SOULS AND THEREíS ONLY A CERTAIN NUMBER OF SOULS AND THEY HAVE TO BE REGENERATED. JUST INCREDIBLE STUFF. SHE BELIEVES ALL THESE ABDUCTEES...

I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH THE TWO GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, AND I HAVE NOTHING TO BACK THIS UP, STRICTLY UNOFFICIAL, BUT I WAS TOLD THAT THE GOVERNMENT AFTER HOPKINS WROTE HIS (first) BOOK, CALLED MISSING TIME, THAT THE GOVERNMENT WENT TO THESE PEOPLE (i.e. "abductees") AND ASKED THEM IF THEY WOULD PROVIDE THE SAME INFORMATION TO THE GOVERNMENT AND SOME OF THESE PEOPLE REPUDIATED WHAT THEY TOLD HOPKINS. NOW THATíS WHAT I WAS TOLD.

Anyway, I never told her and showed her anything, except what we were doing on the other project. She just made that up, she exaggerated... sheís just so hung up you canít talk about anything else (with her).

PJK: Then reads a second allegation:

"CAUS Director, Peter Gersten, in a visit with a military intelligence source at Kirtland AFB in 1983 - later identified as Doty - was informed of a wide range of bizarre UFO stories. Included were comments on a briefing paper on UFOs for President Carter, the Cash/Landrum (incident) being a government exploitation of UFO technology - ...Bill Moore being íright oní with Roswell (crashed saucer), and an admission that the original Project Aquarius cable (TWX) ...was retyped and not an original cable. This cable was the first mention anywhere of MJ-12 and Project Aquarius."

RCD: (Laughs) Gersten came out, I donít even remember when it was, and somebody from California, some television official from California. Gersten had spoke to me on the telephone several days before and said heíd like to get in touch with me about this 1980 Kirtland incident. So I agreed to meet with him.

And he sat there and asked me a number of questions about UFOs and I answered him LIKE I WAS TOLD TO ANSWER HIM. The meeting was official insofar as my capacity.

PJK: Do you have a tape recording of that meeting?

RCD: Oh yes.

PJK: Where would that be, in OSI files?

RCD: I canít disclose. Iím not going to comment on that. But when I confronted Peter Gersten some time later, after my attorney did, he shut right up, suspecting that it was recorded and knowing that heís lying. I told him if he wants to go to court--I told him in a telephone conversation I did--if you want to go to court, Iíve got the evidence to prove you wrong. And he just shut his mouth.

Now Iím not going to go into that because thereís another aspect involved that I canít discuss.

RCD FREQUENTLY IMPLIES THAT HE CANNOT DISCUSS SOMETHING BECAUSE OF SENSITIVITY, I.E. SECURITY.

The only conversation I had with Gersten was RIGHT OUTSIDE A HOTEL. HE WANTED TO MEET ME ALONE, GETTING BACK TO THE CONVERSATION IN THE RESTAURANT. IT WAS STRICTLY HIM ASKING ME QUESTIONS AND ME DENYING THEM. "I donít know what youíre talking about. No, I donít know about this, or that."

He asked me about the UFO in Texas that exploded and hurt somebody [PJK: The Cash-Landrum case]. I said I know nothing about that. HE was the one who said I understand it was a recovered alien craft, flown by the government--his source had told him that. I said, well, I donít know.

PJK: Gersten was the lawyer for Ms. Cash and Ms. Landrum who sued USAF for $10 million for alleged injuries.

Anyways, he asked me, well I donít remember now. But he asked me a lot of questions but I never once provided, not one bit of information to him, or to anyone else. (laughs) Come on now, I wouldnít be fool enough to do that. Well, anyway he said he wanted to meet me later near his hotel where he was staying and I agreed with that.

Strange behaviour if RCD could not or did not want to answer Gerstenís questions.

The conversation wasnít recorded.

He showed me a document that was allegedly a teletype message that was sent from ah, I think it was sent from Washington to OSI Detachment or district headquarters at Kirtland, I believe that was the routing. Any way, I looked at the document and said gee this is an inaccurate document. And he said, why? And I said, well in a classified document each paragraph is classified and in this document the paragraphs were not classified. The top marking said it was supposedly secret.

And he said, well read it, and I read it and said well it appears to me that somebody retyped this and typed this up. And he said, do you think itís based on an actual document, and I said, well, I said, it could be based on an actual document but Iím not going to say it was. Now, years later, it was based on an actual document that was typed. However, SOMEBODY ADDED A LOT OF FABRICATION TO IT, A LOT OF JUNK TO IT.

Now, who I think did it is Richard Todd - a UFOlogist in Penn. or N.J. who is active investigator using FOIA -  ...He sent documents to the government which were forged and he said in his letter, these are forged documents, donít you think theyíre great. I mean they had all sorts of code words in them, unbelievable. And I think that somebody provided some information to Todd or Gersten and then they exaggerated all the rest of it. Probably from the FOIA documents that were released in 1980, or whenever they were released.

So that was it. And then about a month later Gersten called me back and said HEY, CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME MORE INFORMATION. AND I SAID, NO I GAVE YOU--HE WANTED ME TO COMMENT MORE ON THE DOCUMENT, THE MJ-12 AND AQUARIUS. AND THEN HE PROBABLY CALLED ME SEVERAL TIMES AFTER THAT BUT I NEVER HAD ANY, NEVER VOLUNTEERED ANY INFORMATION. IíM A PROFESSIONAL INTELLIGENCE PERSON AND I KNOW WHAT TO SAY AND WHAT NOT TO SAY, AND I CERTAINLY WOULDNíT TELL ANYBODY ANYTHING THAT WOULD GET ME IN TROUBLE.

PJK: Asks if he is due to retire soon.

RCD: Yes

PJK: What are you going to be doing then?

RCD: I have a business.

PJK offers to reimburse him for this long-distance call

RCD: Iíd just as soon put this thing to rest, and I thought it was at rest once before. And I wouldnít even have spoke to you BECAUSE I HAVENíT SPOKE TO ANY ONE ELSE

CONTRADICTS EARLIER STATEMENT ABOUT MANY PHONE CALLS, INTERVIEWS

BUT A HIGH OFFICIAL WITHIN DOD CONTACTED ME AFTER I TALKED WITH GEORGE PEARCE AND SAID NO, I DONíT WANT TO TALK TO ANYBODY. BUT THIS OFFICIAL FROM DOD CONTACTED ME AND SAID THAT YOU (pjk) WERE LEGITIMATE AND YOU WOULD REBUT THESE, SO I SAID SURE, AS LONG AS HEíS GOING TO PRESS THE TRUTH AND NOT EXAGGERATE LIKE ALL THESE PEOPLE, IíLL BE HAPPY TO TALK TO HIM.

After this telcon, PJK called Col. David Shea, to thank him for calling RCD, only to be told that Shea did NOT talk to Doty, but to George Pearce -- P.I.O. at Kirtland -- SO CLEARLY RCD WAS NOT BEING FULLY TRUTHFUL IN ABOVE CLAIM--BUT TRYING TO MAKE HIMSELF SOUND IMPRESSIVE.

PJK: Asks for RCDís suspicions as to who composed MJ-12 documents. "What about Bill Moore"?

RCD: No. IíVE HAD A NUMBER OF CONTACTS WITH HIM. TO TELL THE TRUTH, I DONíT THINK HE HAS THE KNOWLEDGE TO DO THAT. Now he could probably have helped.

I KNOW SOME THINGS THAT YOU DONíT--THE GOVERNMENT I SHOULD SAY--KNEW SOME THINGS ABOUT HIM THAT MAYBE OTHER PEOPLE DONíT KNOW, THAT WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT I DONíT THINK HE WOULD DO IT. NOW THATíS MY FEELING. MAYBE HE DID, I DONíT KNOW.

I THINK THAT AN INDIVIDUAL WITHIN DIA [Defense Intelligence Agency] who is a good friend of Emmeneger -- do you know a guy name of Emmeneger ...heís a person who wrote a book about a Holloman incident in 1964 -- he wrote it in 1972 or 1973 -- supposedly a UFO landed at Holloman Air Force Base -- and this Emmenger wrote a book and he allegedly based it on information that was provided to him by DIA officials in Washington. I never read the book....

PJK: When is the incident supposed to have occurred?

RCD: In 1964. HOLLOMAN AF BASE INCIDENT WHERE A UFO ALLEGEDLY LANDED RIGHT ON THE BASE AND IT WAS FLOWN INTO A HANGER AND THE BASE COMMANDER AND EVERYBODY GOT OUT THERE AND MET THE ALIENS. EMMENEGER SUPPOSEDLY WAS ALLOWED TO SEE HIGHLY CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS IN THE PENTAGON REGARDING THIS INCIDENT AND THEN HE WROTE A BOOK ABOUT IT--1973 OR 1974.

PJK: But why would they send it (MJ-12 papers) to Jamie Shandera

RCD: WHO?

PJK: Nobody in the UFO Movement had ever heard of Jamie Shandera

RCD: WHO?

PJK: Shandera is the guy who allegedly received the MJ-12 documents on a roll of unprocessed 35 mm. film.

RCD: Well, I donít know him.

PJK believes he is telling truth, based on his reactions above--unless RCD is a clever actor.

Thatís probably just a name that Moore uses. Is this guy an actual person?

PJK: Yeah, Iíve met him. Heís a TV producer in southern California. (PJK explores why film was sent to Shandera instead of Moore.)

RCD: My gut feeling, but donít quote me, my gut feel is that THOSE (MJ-12) DOCUMENTS WERE ORIGINATED BY A PERSON WITHIN DIA AND THAT THEY WERE SENT TO MOORE OR TO WHOMEVER THIS OTHER GUY IS, IN ORDER TO DISCREDIT THEM.

MY PERSONAL FEELING IS THAT IT WAS A GOVERNMENT OPERATION. (i.e. government disinformation) I WASNíT INVOLVED IN IT. But it was a government operation.

PJK (plays devilís advocate to challenge his theory)

RCD: Well, maybe Mr. X thought it was such a good piece of forgery that Moore--without ever having been in government service or the military--wouldnít recognize it (as a forgery). And they would be so fascinating to Moore

PJK: Then goes into anomaly in the date format used in MJ-12 briefing document--same curious format used by William Moore.

RCD: Well, youíre seeing things that I didnít see. Maybe he did do it.

PJK then offered to send him copy of my upcoming article in Skeptical Inquirer, and he expressed interest. PJK asked for mailing address and RCD gave military address, not home address:

Richard C. Doty
1606 SVS/SVF
Kirtland AFB, N.M. 87117

When PJK asked: "and is that Master Sergeant," there was a long pause and he answered "yeah, you can put Master Sergeant."

PJK: My advice to you would be that I think that you or your lawyer ought to write a letter to CAUS or to the MUFON UFO Journal and ask that it be published, denying those things that you feel you should deny.

RCD: OK Well, see, we did that. We wrote to the publishers of the newsletters {{Note PLURAL--yet MUFON report just came out about a week ago.}} but they didnít publish em.

PJK: Well, if you did that, I would very much like to get a copy. In other words, if you wrote it, intending for it to be made public, then there certainly is no reason for it to be kept secret.

RCD: OK, whatís your address.

PJK: Supplied same.

RCD: Yeah, Iíll be more than happy to send you a, Iíll dig íem up.

Donít hold your breath until they arrive. When PJK asks if he will stay in Albuquerque after he retires, he said he will stay in New Mexico, explains he went to school out here and his father is ex-military.

When PJK asks if his father was in Army or AF, he replies:

RCD: Air Force, and he had something to do with Blue Book, too.

PJK: Tell me more about that.

RCD: Well, he was an investigator for Blue Book, he was at Holloman from 1962 to 1966, four years. He was involved in the Lonnie Zamora case - 1964 "UFO landing"" at Socorro -. Edward Doty, if youíve ever seen any documents youíll see his name on it.

PJK: Is he still alive?

RCD: Yes, heís still alive. But he doesnít talk about it. The ironic thing, we were at Holloman, living, in 1964 and if anyone would have known about the landing of that spacecraft, my Dad would have, and he says baloney, nothing like that ever happened.

PJK: Again invited him to send me the telephone bill and I would pay for it.