Examining Ground Debris
Landing Gear Evidence
Rim photographed in the Pentagon wreckage. You can clearly see it is a double bead design as required by the NTSB, and you can also see it has had 90% of the rim edge smashed off in the crash.
Some people have tried to claim that the rims are different from a 757 rim - well here (bottom) is a 757-200 rim from an American Airlines 757, I've outlined the exact same symmetrical holes. I think perhaps some people are thrown off by the balancing led weights attached on the rims in the bottom photo? Have you never taken your car in for a wheel alignment and tire balancing? This is clearly the same kind of rim found on a 757. (The hub-covers/grease-covers are not present for obvious reasons - to remove one you pop it off with a flathead screw driver... so how would you expect it to stay on in a 400mph impact with a reinforced concrete wall?)
While we agree that the wheel rim from the Pentagon appears to be the same as that of a Boeing 757, we need to look at the "wheel rim" evidence firstly in the context of a massive government conspiracy on 9/11, and secondly in context of the other - overwhelming - evidence that points to something other than a 757 having hit the Pentagon.
Taking these facts into consideration and the evidence for a general 9/11 government conspiracy, is it not plausible that the conspirators just might have "planted" evidence at some point in the operation? After all, if CatHerder grants the possibility of a government conspiracy and cover-up, why does he/she draw the line at the planting of evidence?
Keep in mind that there are very few available photos of aircraft debris inside the Pentagon: a wheel rim and a landing gear strut, and an engine combustion chamber. The wheel rim was in the non-renovated Wedge 2 by the AE drive hole. And despite the assertions of the author of the ATS post, without expert analysis, no one can say that the few recognizable airplane parts are unequivocally from a 757.
Landing gear strut - appears to be from the nose gear - note how charred the area around it is.
This landing gear strut is inadmissible as evidence given the fact that the CatHerder does not claim to be an expert on landing gear and cannot verify from which aircraft this landing gear comes. As such, it could be the landing gear strut from any number of aircraft.
The next photo is from the cover from one of the conspiracy sites that demands "where is the plane?"- they must not have looked very hard, there are 2 obvious chunks of it in the photo. Another rim from the airplane on the right, and a large chunk of bulkhead on the left.
Again the alleged "evidence" of debris from a Boeing 757 in the above pictured debris is inconclusive. The fact that the ATS author claims categorically that there is "a large chunk of bulkhead on the left" is somewhat comical given his/her admitted lack of expertise in positively identifying charred remains of any aircraft let alone a Boeing 757.
We should note that we are not saying that "no plane" hit the Pentagon, we are simply saying that the damage and debris is inconsistent with a Boeing 757.
Below: More parts from inside the 757 - note the Boeing green primer on 3 parts in this photo - two circled.
Again, for anyone, let alone an amateur like CatHerder, to claim that they can positively identify debris from a Boeing 757 from these mangled pieces of material raises questions about the integrity and impartiality of said individual. Can "CatHerder" be sure that these greenish pieces of material are not from some part of the inside of the Pentagon or from another type of aircraft?
The very fact that all of these parts and bits of "evidence" were NOT trotted out by the government and put on display for the public and experts to examine is more indication that if they had been, someone would have recognized them as something else entirely.
No official explanation for the above hole in ring C has ever been put forward, and the ATS author studiously ignores this fact. The official Pentagon building performance report simply states that:
"There was a hole in the east wall of ring C, emerging into AE Drive, between column lines 5 and 7 in Wedge 2. The wall failure was approximately 310 ft from where the fuselage of the aircraft entered the west wall of the building..."
That's it. The fact that whatever came out through this hole is essentially the object that hit the Pentagon and did the major part of the damage is apparently not deemed important enough, either by the US government or CatHerder, to deserve comment.
The fact is that the above image showing the round hole that was left in ring C is one of the most intriguing aspects of the Pentagon attack. While we might assume that it is unofficially claimed that one of the engines of Flight 77 made this hole (the engine being the only part of a 757 that could possibly be strong enough to pass through three rings of the Pentagon, never mind that it left no evidence of its entry on the exterior of the building), as we have seen, a disk that is verifiably part of the engine of the aircraft that hit the Pentagon was found at the front of the building, not in the third ring.
This fact strongly suggests that the engine that the disk came from was destroyed in the initial blast at the front of the building. It is highly unlikely therefore that an engine of the plane that hit the Pentagon punched out this hole. Whatever the object was, it had enough force to breach the main reinforced steel concrete outer wall and then travel some 250 feet, passing through five other double-brick walls on the way. Terry Mitchell, Chief of the Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Public Affairs) was one of the first on the scene at this “punch out” point.
In a DOD news briefing about the reconstruction of the Pentagon he stated:
“This is a hole in -- there was a punch-out. They suspect that this was where a part of the aircraft came through this hole, although I didn’t see any evidence of the aircraft down there.”
Indeed, it just must have been where part of the aircraft came out, yet there was no evidence of any part of an aircraft that could have made the hole! Never mind that CatHerder has just told us about all the evidence of the aircraft that is just laying all around! Later in the same briefing when referring to the same hole Mitchell must have realised his mistake and stated:
“This pile here is all Pentagon metal. None of that is aircraft whatsoever. As you can see, they’ve punched a hole in here. This was punched by the rescue workers to clean it out”.
So which was it? Was the hole punched out by some part of the aircraft or by rescue workers? Was the pile of stuff aircraft debris, as CatHerder claims, or was it "all Pentagon metal" as Terry Mitchell says? Look again at the picture of the hole.
We don’t need the contradictory statements of Mr. Mitchell to conclude that, due to the fact that the debris is on the outside of the building, the hole was punched out from the inside, yet how could it have been “punched out” by rescue workers when there are scorch marks at the top of the hole on the outside? Did the rescue workers punch out this hole when the fire was still raging inside? Hardly likely. Limiting air flow is part of fighting a fire. You don’t make holes to let in more air while you are trying to extinguish a fire.
Dare we suggest that the OASD chief was lying that day? That he changed his story because the “official” version of events did not include the idea that part of the aircraft made that hole, because it is inconceivable that any part of a 757 could have done so? If so, then a government official is on record as having lied about the events at the Pentagon, yet such does not dissuade CatHerder from trying to convince the public that the official government story about the strike on the Pentagon is correct.
Below, another photo of a tire with the same pattern as ones used on a 757, found in the Pentagon wreckage.
Again, for anyone to present a grainy picture of something that vaguely resembles a tyre and then claim that this is a positive ID of the wheel of a Boeing 757 simply gives us further cause to believe that CatHerder either has an agenda about which he/she is not being honest, or is so invested in his/her need to prove the government story correct that he/she has lost any hope of being objective about his/her analysis of the evidence.
Let’s take a look at some of the ground debris that appears to be related to an aircraft engine. Many different sites and posts have reported that the 757 uses Rolls-Royce engines [RB211-535E4B] - however it should be noted, for the sake of thoroughness (ibid), that American Airlines also use Pratt & Witney engines [PW2037] in many of their 757 fleet. You can also view this information on their website. (The 757 fleets around the world actually use over six different kinds of engines.) The 757 that is reported to have hit the Pentagon was using RB211-535E4B engines.
Here is are photos of some apparent engine parts from the Pentagon crash site.
Image portion cropped from (source) - Another View
What is seen in this photo is most likely the APU (Aux Power Unit) used in a 757 that is equipped with Rolls-Royce RB211 engines. The APU (Honeywell GTCP331-200) is located in the tail section of the aircraft (that's what the large vent that looks like a 3rd jet engine is) as evidenced (ibid) on this technical rescue reference aid from Boeing. Boeing 757 reference website.
These small turbine engines are quite common on modern turbine & turbofan passenger aircraft, and are used to furnish ground auxiliary power while the main engines are shut down during ground operations. An online training aid lets you Play around with the controls on a 757/767 instrument panel (ibid).
The reader will notice in the above something that CatHerder does repeatedly throughout his/her analysis. When presenting his/her argument he/she pads out the point being made with additional information that is often irrelevant to the point being made, but which is included, it seems, to create the impression that the point being made is well-researched or "factual".
For example, what does a link to an online pilot training aid that lets you play around with a 757 instrument panel have to do with identifying the disk in the above picture?
There have been some people who claim that a Global Hawk was what hit the Pentagon. Here is what John W. Brown, spokesman for Rolls Royce (Indianapolis), had to say about the part in the photo above 'It is not a part from any Rolls Royce engine that I'm familiar with, and certainly not the AE 3007H made here in Indy.' (Of course it wouldn't be anything he's familiar with, it's a powerplant made by Honeywell.)
The AE 3007 engines are used in small commuter jets such as the Cessna Citation; the AE 3007H is also used in the military's unmanned aircraft, the Global Hawk. The Global Hawk is manufactured by Northrop Grumman's subsidiary Ryan Aeronautical, which it acquired from Teledyne, Inc. in July 1999.
A detailed view of what the turbofan that powers the Global Hawk looks like - I'm sure you can see it's too small to be anything in the pictures contained here or anywhere else in the Pentagon crash evidence. Also visible in this photo, one of the 757's blue passenger seats to the left of the turbine, and possibly a 2nd seat above the other seat.
Again CatHerder reveals his/her possible agenda by selective quoting (and without references) in the above paragraph. First of all, the comments by Rolls Royce spokesman John Brown are taken from an American Free Press article written by Christopher Bollyn.
Bollyn undertook the task of trying to find out what exactly the disk in the above photo was. He called Honeywell’s Aerospace division in Phoenix, Ariz., where the GTCP331-200 APU used on the 757 aircraft is made: “There’s no way that’s an APU wheel”, an expert at Honeywell told AFP. The expert, who cannot be named, added: “That turbine disc—there’s no way in the world that came out of an APU”
The first point then is that an expert form Honeywell that makes the APU for the 757 has stated categorically that the APU wheel in the photo is not from a 757.
As mentioned by CatHerder, Bollyn then contacted John W. Brown, spokesman for Rolls Royce (Indianapolis), asking if the disk was from a Rolls Royce manufactured engine, perhaps the AE3007H used in the Global Hawk. Brown’s response was:
“It is not a part from any Rolls Royce engine that I’m familiar with, and certainly not the AE 3007H made here in Indy.”
Next Bollyn called Pratt & Whitney who manufactures parts of the 757’s turbofan jet engines:
“If the aircraft that struck the Pentagon was a Boeing 757-200 owned by American Airlines, then it would have to be a Rolls Royce engine”, Mark Sullivan, spokesman for Pratt & Whitney, told AFP.
So we have another spokesman for Pratt and Whitney, who, along with Rolls Royce, manufacture parts of the 757s main engines (not the APU), who has contradicted John Brown of Rolls Royce by saying that the part MUST be from a Rolls Royce engine, which includes the possibility that it was the AE 3007H which is the engine in a Global Hawk, yet it is NOT the GTCP331-200 which is the APU used on the Boeing 757 as stated by the Honeywell expert.
Bollyn then contacted John W. Brown, spokesman for Rolls Royce once more, to inform him that the Pratt & Whitney spokesperson had stated that it must be a piece of a Rolls Royce engine. At this point Brown balked and asked who at Pratt & Whitney had provided the information.
Asked again if the disc in the photo was a piece of a Rolls Royce RB211-535, or from the AE 3007 series, Brown said he could not answer.
Bollyn then asked Brown if he was actually familiar with the parts of an
AE 3007H, which is made at the Indiana plant: “No”, Brown said. “I don’t build
the engines. I am a spokesman for the company. I speak for the
So the Rolls Royce spokesman that CatHerder quotes as an expert on the evidence that the disk in the photo cannot be from a Global Hawk has stated that he is not familiar with the parts of the Global Hawk engine and is therefore not qualified to make any statement about the origins of the the wheel in the photo.
We are left then with the likelihood that the disk in the photo IS from a Rolls Royce engine, but NOT from the APU of the 757 as stated by the Honeywell expert. Could it then be a part of one of the main engines of a 757? By all accounts it is far too small to be the disk from one of the 757's main engines, given that they are between 6 and 7 ft in diameter. The disk on the AE 3007H however is a little over 3 ft in diameter, and despite what CatHerder says, the disk in the photo is a very good match for that of a AE 3007H, the engine used on a Global Hawk but never on a Boeing 757.
Rolls Royce produces the RB211-535 (main) engines for American Airlines 757-200 aircraft at a plant in Derby, England. Martin Johnson, head of communications at Rolls Royce in Derby, said he had followed the story closely in American Free Press and had also been notified in advance by Rolls Royce offices in Seattle and Indianapolis.
However, rather than address the question of the unidentified disc, Johnson launched a verbal attack on this reporter for questioning the government version of events at the Pentagon on 9-11. ‘You are the only person in the world who does not believe that a 757 hit the Pentagon’, Johnson said. ‘The idea that we can have a reasonable conversation is beyond your wildest dreams’, Johnson said and hung up the phone.
there can be no definitive statements made on the matter, the available evidence
would seem to suggest that the engine disk in the FEMA photos is probably too
small to be part of a 757 engine and, contrary to what CatHerder states,
according to the Honeywell expert that makes the APU for the 757, it is
definitely not a part of a 757’s APU. So what is it? It could very well
be part of a Global Hawk AE3007H engine.
Back to our ATS author:
Below is a significant portion of a badly smashed RB211 engine in the Pentagon wreckage - what appears to be the diffusor section of the compressor, one of the pumps remains partially attached, some hoses and the familiar webbed wire wraps (to the right of the main ring) and some of the Boeing yellow primed support structure is lying beside it (left, with rivets - again: note the yellow primer, we'll cover that further down). Reference: Image of the engine used on the 757 (it's the rightmost one, top row) Rolls-Royce
Yet again our non-expert author presents photographs of mangled pieces of debris and asserts categorically that they are parts from a 757 engine.
In this case, we are provided with a link to a picture of a 757 engine without its casing from which our author can apparently quite easily identify things like the "diffusor section of the compressor" and "one of the pumps" and "some hoses and the familiar webbed wire wraps".
Ah yes! Those familiar webbed wire wraps, known and loved in every household across the country! The photo below is the reference that our author has used to positively match the mangled and burnt debris above. Well? Can't you see it?! It's right there!! Clearly the debris above is the very same 757 engine in the photo below!
No? Well, obviously you just don't trust enough in the word of the US government and its agent, CatHerder. If you did, you would be able to see the truth straight away. (End sarcasm.)
Another engine part, bottom right.
Again, for the author, in his/her non-expert opinion, to declare that the circular piece of debris in the above photo is "another engine part" is either evidence of extreme subjectivity or a deliberate attempt to mislead the reader. We are beginning to think it is the latter.
Below: Evidence of the right engine impact on the side of the building is evident on the large pillar being sprayed with fire retardant. (click photo for huge version)
At this point, CatHerder's sweeping statements about damage to the Pentagon and what caused it are getting to be somewhat farcical. In this case, as in almost every statement made by the him/her so far, the claim is spurious to say the least.
Click on the link to view a larger version of the photo. You will see that the chunk of masonry that is missing is a the level of the second floor windows in the Pentagon. If, as CatHerder states, the engine of a 757 did this damage then the nose of the plane would have impacted several feet higher around the middle of the second floor. Yet CatHerder sees no problem with making such a claim while at the same time presenting photographs that show clearly that whatever hit the Pentagon struck the facade at the level of the first floor!
Again, we realize that we have been dazzled with more photos and more unsubstantiated claims.
The hit lightpoles, and damaged vehicles in the flightpath (click for larger images)
Indeed, damaged light poles, but was it a 757 that did this damage or another type of craft? We aren't saying that a plane did not hit the Pentagon. Hardly anyone IS saying that. The only thing at issue is what KIND of plane was it?
The debris field of small chunks of plane witnesses said debris "rained down for minutes after the crash". (click for larger images)
Again, (and we are sure you are getting tired of this by now) the debris in the upper photos is extremely small and most likely to be masonry from the facade of the Pentagon rather than "small chunks of plane" as CatHerder states. Note yet again that he (or she) is making sweeping assertions without providing any evidence at all for any of his/her claims! Somehow, probably due to the abundance of photos and the authoritative writing style that has very little content, many people actually accept this bit of what can only be called "yellow journalism" as a serious debunking of the "No Boeing" idea!
As noted by Thierry Meyssan in his book Pentagate, even the American government has refused to recognise that the infamous piece of debris in the lower photo on the left above is a part of the Flight 77, yet CatHerder sagely affirms that it is, without doubt, a piece of Flight 77. As for the "eyewitnesses" statements that debris "rained down for minutes after the crash", we do not doubt that it did, but that has little or no bearing on our investigation into whether Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, or whether it was something else.
[Deleted part of CatHerder's analysis of the size of the infamous "piece of plane" given that the point has already been made that the US government officially disowns this as a part of Flight 77.]
Even the black boxes have been recovered, the reason given for not playing the flight voice recorder for the media was that it wouldn't serve any use other than to cause more emotional pain to family members (I agree with them frankly).
Well, again CatHerder is being disingenuous.
Flight data recorders were found at the Pentagon on September 14th 2001. On Feb. 25, 2002, FBI Director Robert Mueller stated that Flight 77's data recorder provided altitude, speed, headings and other information, but the voice recorder contained nothing useful. [CBS]
Later, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said that the data on the cockpit voice data recorder was unrecoverable. No further explanation was given for these contradictory statements.
If the cockpit voice data really was unrecoverable, it would be the first time in aviation history a solid-state data recorder (the type used on Flight 77) was unrecoverable after a crash.
From a Scientific American feature article lauding the "Better Black Box" in their [WWW] September 2000 issue:
Nearly 100,000 flight recorders have been installed in commercial aircraft over the past four decades. The prices of the latest models generally range from $10,000 to $20,000. Their survival rate has greatly improved in recent years as the FAA has raised the certification requirements. Although older recorders using magnetic tape were susceptible to fire damage, no solid-state device has been destroyed in an accident to date.
Lawyers representing 9/11 victim families are attempting to use the Freedom of Information Act to obtain transcripts of the black-box data. See [WWW] 9/11 Lawyers Seek Black-Box Data on Saudi Hijackers by Tom Flocco, which indicates the FBI are obstructing the NTSB review of the black box data. [Flight 77 Black Boxes]
So we see it was not the case that only the public did not get to hear what was on the data recorders, the families of the victims have been left out in the cold too.
So much for wanting to prevent emotional pain!
Of course, as Flight 77 was not the plane involved in the Pentagon Attack, its black boxes would presumably show that, and the government would be very reluctant to allow the data to be examined, or allow the NTSB to carry out the investigation of the crash that is required by law. [Flight 77 Black Boxes]
As an interesting aside on the black boxes, Allyn E. Kilsheimer is the CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, the company responsible for rebuilding the Pentagon under the Phoenix Project. He was the head structural engineer on the rebuilding project and the first structural engineer to arrive at the scene (at the request of the DOD by the way). He stated:
"I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"
course, the idea that we should give any credit to the words of someone who was
immediately called by the Pentagon to come and "assess the damage" and who went
on to make millions from the reconstruction project is laughable. Kilsheimer was
also the "government's man" at the Oklahoma Federal Building bombing and the
first WTC bombing. Coincidence?
But it doesn't end there.
Kilsheimer claimed that he "found the black box" on the afternoon of 9/11. The only problem with this statement is that it is an out and out lie, and verifiably so.
"Carlton Burkhammer was at work at Fairfax County Fire and Rescue Station 14 when he heard about the World Trade Center crashes. Part of Fairfax County’s elite urban search and rescue team, Burkhammer prepared to suit up and head to New York City. One of the nation’s most experienced rescue teams, the squad had been deployed in disasters all over the world: Oklahoma City, embassy bombings, the Turkey earthquake. [...]
Early Friday morning, shortly before 4 a.m., Burkhammer and another firefighter, Brian Moravitz, were combing through debris near the impact site. Peering at the wreckage with their helmet lights, the two spotted an intact seat from the plane’s cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached. Then they saw two odd-shaped dark boxes, about 1.5 by 2 feet long."
Yet again we have a government agent openly and PROVABLY lying about the events surrounding the attack on the Pentagon, but that again does not give CatHerder any pause for thought before trumpeting the official story as the truth.
Area of fence to the right of the impact area partially flattened by the right engine of the plane. Note how a couple of the poles are bent right over, some are sheered off at the top, yet the pole and fence portion on the left is untouched (obviously the right engine took out the fence to the right of those poles) and the entire back side of the fence has been torn away. The generator was hit by the right wing and engine before the 757 hit the building - the damage is evidenced by other photos (click below image) of the crash area.
Close-up of generator smashed in the front and gouged on the top - hard to image a missile accomplishing both of these. But if the right engine of a 757 hit the front of the generator, part of the wing could gouge the top. At the very least, something very large, and very heavy smashed into this extremely heavy diesel generator.
Click the image on the left to view a large top-down image of the impact area, including the large desil (sic) generator which is visibly damaged, and actually spun ~45 degrees from the impact! Most importantly it is spun ~45 degrees towards the building - if this was a missile or a bomb, the explosion could ONLY have spun it away from the building.
In the immediate aftermath of the Pentagon attack, the Associated Press reported that a truck bomb had exploded at the Pentagon. There were other reports that a helicopter had exploded. It certainly seems likely then that something exploded in the vicinity of the Pentagon before the main impact.
As noted by CatHerder, there was a diesel generator stationed just to the right of the impact point in front of the Pentagon that was part of the Pentagon refurbishment project. Diesel generators usually have a large fuel tank located somewhere nearby to power them. Photos taken moments after the impact show an already burning fire to the right of the main impact site that is emitting a dense cloud of black smoke.
This black smoke is consistent with burning fuel (diesel), which continued to burn long after the flames and smoke from the main impact had died down.
If Flight 77 impacted the Pentagon, we would expect there to be a major and prolonged fire from the thousands of gallons of aircraft fuel that Flight 77 was carrying. But in the case that another smaller aircraft was used, the lack of burning aircraft fuel would be evident. It is our contention therefore that the conspirators detonated a bomb near the generator just before or at the moment of impact in order to augment the aircraft explosion claim (complete with thousands of gallons of fuel) and also to provide a literal smoke screen in an attempt to hide the fact that Flight 77 was not involved in the attack.