Start of interview
Kerry: I’m Kerry Cassidy. This is Project Camelot, and we're
here with Richard Hoagland, and he’s just written a book called
Dark Mission with his partner Mike Bara - and we're thrilled to
be in his New Mexico home.
So from here, basically, Richard, we’re going to run with you in
the beginning and let you kind of lead us where you want to take
us. At some point, I’m going to start steering you in different
directions. You can fight me, or you can agree with me!
R: [Laughs] Others have tried that, you know.
K: We can have a little jousting match. However you want to deal
with it, okay?
R: [Smiles] Okay.
K: But we’ll have some fun, and hopefully we will all learn
What can you tell us about this new amazing secret history of
R: Well, it’s a story many years in the making. I mean, at least
40-some years since the genesis of NASA itself, back in 1958.
What I’m intrigued with is how it’s a story that I’ve tried to
tell before in various venues. I told it on the Art Bell show,
Coast to Coast. I’ve told it to the National Press Club, in a
press conference that we did with eight other people, very
prestigious background, NASA people, imaging people, in 1996.
It’s a story I have told on television, but until we wrote Dark
Mission, it hasn’t seemed to take root. Two weeks after the book
was published, it became a bestseller on the New York Times
bestseller list. In fact that’s what this [pointing to book
image on computer screen] nice little emblem up on the corner of
the book says.
That’s not a mean feat to do, when you've had no national
television exposure on such a volume as this. The only exposure
we’ve had, the only way people found out that we had written a
new book and we were looking at the background of NASA and what
they’d been telling us against the background of who they really
are, was on the Coast to Coast audience and on the the websites.
We have two websites.
EnterpriseMission.com, which is the formal
website of the Enterprise investigators. We also have
DarkMission.net, which is the official website of the new book.
I think it’s kind of like the old Mark Twain quote: ”When it’s
steamboat time, you steam.”
I think we are politically in this country, actually in the
world, particularly the last 8 years... all of us are ready to
get to the truth. To drop the lies. It is so overwhelming now,
it is so in our face that people we have trusted, that we have
trusted with our lives, our fortunes, our sacred honor. They’ve
lied to us, and they have looked into the cameras, and they have
absolutely told us lie after lie after lie.
So when Mike and I come out with a book that ostensibly is going
to tell you the truth behind some of the lies about an agency
that is not centered in the mainstream, except during launches
from the Cape, I think that explains this grass roots
groundswell where they literally in the bookstores now, Barnes &
Noble and the other chains, they can't keep it on the shelves.
Mike’s brother went into a Barnes & Noble up in Seattle the
other day, and the clerk said:
“Well, I’m sorry, Mr. Bara, but
we had twenty in yesterday, and there’s only one left.”
course, that to me is really good political news. It means
somehow we’re connecting. We’re connecting with the American
people, and we've got a chance to show them, to document the
K: So what is the truth? What is the bottom line? And you can
build the story however you want, but basically you’re saying
that NASA has lied to us. In essence our government has lied to
us, because they’re one and the same, right? They’re interwoven
in some ways?
R: Not necessarily. You see, this is where people need to think
nuance. People need to be much more sophisticated, which of
course the 21st century viewer, or reader these days, is. It
isn’t the government. There is no such thing as the government.
There are several governments, and they’re at war with each
You see occasionally evidence in public that there is some kind
of war, but the fact most of the time the nuance positionings
It’s really almost like the old feudal system. You
know, we’ve all been raised on stories of Robin Hood and
Sherwood Forest, and the Sheriff of Nottingham, you know, King
John and the terrible things that were going on in England when
Sir Richard, the good guy, the Kind of England, was off fighting
in the Crusades.
The bad guy John was basically trying to steal
his empire behind his back while he was off doing good deeds.
What we’re looking at in the current US government, which the
founding fathers never in their wildest nightmares, except maybe
for that vision that Washington ostensibly had at Valley Forge -
they never imagined that there would be these baronies, these
feudal kingdoms, and these fiefdoms, fighting with each other
and with the American people over power. Ultimately, it’s all
K: So, name the fiefdoms. Are you willing to do that?
R: Well, let’s see, there is the Defense Department, the
Department, and there’s NASA, and there’s the CIA,
and all the
alphabet agencies. Remember the National Intelligence Estimate
that just told us a few days ago that “Whoops, um, Iran
really isn’t developing a nuclear weapon and hasn’t been for
four years”, was the compilation of 16 or 17 intelligence
that somehow all got together with a consensus and said,
we were really mistaken”.
Because they aren’t doing what the
President has been telling you they’re doing for months now,
beating the drumbeats of war. Threatening World War III. So
people are seeing that there is this incredible internal food
fight going on in the US government.
That there is no one government. There are, in the House and
Senate alone, 535 governments. Each member, each representative,
each Senator has their own perspective when they’re actually
answerable to their constituents.
K: Okay, can we talk about the below the level of the general
consensus reality governments that are also going on?
R: Well, that’s five light years away. Let’s get there quietly.
Let’s get there with some kind of transition, because for most
people, the idea that what they see on CNN is not reality is a
We’re just beginning in the mainstream, what I call the Bell
Curve, because that’s what it is. It’s the middle of the road.
It’s the “silent majority”, as Nixon used to call it. We’re just
beginning to get those people to realize that their government,
the people that they trust, the people that they elect, the
people that they vote into power, may not be the people really
running the show.
That is a staggering leap for most people who really do think
that when they show up at the ballot box or they go to a caucus,
or they participate in some kind of poll, that that has real
power. No, that has power in the public venue, but the real
determiners of our fate are being determined in private and in
secret. And we identify in Dark Mission... notice how I
elegantly I brought it back?
K: That was a lovely segue.
R: Thank you. We identify the three secret power groups who are
in fact behind and in charge of and fighting with each other for
power under the NASA emblem.
And they are... because I can see
that’s where you want to go [Kerry laughing] - they are,
K: Very good, very good! So that’s actually stunning that you
would actually name them, at least at that level.
R: Why is it stunning? That’s the truth.
K: Because very few people will.
R: That’s what Dark Mission's all about. To tell people the
R: George had a guest on the other night. He was actually a
minister, a pastor who was taken by one of the top VPs of
Atlantic Richfield up to Prudhoe Bay in the ‘70s, where they
were drilling on the north slope and building the pipeline.
he was very fond of during his four hours on Coast to Coast to
quoting again and again, from one of the Biblical proverbs.
truth shall set you free, know the truth and the truth will set
So the first step in the road to freedom is knowing
you’re being lied to.
And one of the mantras we have throughout Dark Mission is a line
that was actually given to me by one of these intel agents
know, you get calls from these people; you actually even have
dinner with them. They come to conferences. You never really
know how much of what they’re telling you is the truth, and how
much is spin. How much is a veiled lie with a bit of truth
embedded - otherwise no one will ever buy it.
So you’re constantly making decisions when you rely on sources,
which we at Enterprise really try not to do. And I’ll expand on
that in a minute.
This individual gave me a stunningly interesting line. In fact
it probably was the second most important thing that anybody in
public life has ever told me. My first was my old friend Gene
Roddenberry, which I’ll get back to in a second.
This intel agent said to me in one of our early conversations,
he reiterated over and over again - it’s become kind of like an
in joke when we're talking on the phone to each other:
is different at every level”.
Meaning: that even the people who
are in front of the camera spinning, telling you that the dollar
is crashing, telling you that we’re running out of oil, telling
you that we have to nuke Iran before they nuke us, telling you
that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, most of those
people really believe what they’re telling you. They’ve been
told lies by people that they trust.
So the lie goes up the line. Every little group is controlled
and contained and constrained by being fed exactly how much BS
they will believe. So they can come out in front of the cameras
at like the National Press Club, or at the White House when the
President’s spokesperson comes out.
She believes 99% of the stuff she’s saying; she’s not in on the
lie. She doesn’t know it’s a lie because if she did she couldn’t
be the actress that she is.
R: The lie has to be different at every level in order for the
entire assemblage of lies to ultimately control all the rest of
us and to contain the truth. And by “contain” I don’t mean
"encapsulate", I mean suppress it. Keep it away.
K: So tell me something, when did you get clued in? All those
years back when you were working for
Walter Cronkite, were you
clued in then?
R: Ohhh, that I wish I had been. No. I was young, I was naive, I
was idealistic. I was so enthralled with the idea that they
would tap a 23 year old on the shoulder and actually listen to
my advice. But I was paying attention. I just didn’t have the
Now, I'll give you you an example. We had a meeting, one
evening, in the executive producer’s office. It was on a weekend
and there was supposed to be this press conference by
astronauts. I think it was during Apollo 8.
What you do is launch from the Cape, and you'd spend three days
going to the moon, go into orbit and land and whatever, and you
take three days coming home. Normally under these missions the
only people who got to talk to the astronauts was what was
called a CAPCOM: a capsule communicator, basically another
astronaut, and NASA set this policy up in the very beginning.
Because you don’t want confusion under critical moments of too
So even all the other flight controllers, all the other people
at NASA that are running the mission, all funnel this info
through one guy who talks to the crew.
The first deviation from that really important and obviously
responsible position, was this Sunday afternoon when the
astronauts were falling home to Earth. You know, nothing to do
for two or three days between Earth and moon.
We can just imagine that scene. They’re floating in zero
gravity, there are these incredible views out the window, the
Earth out one window, the moon receding out the other, and
you’re basically... bored.
So what they did is they set up the first press conference in
space where members of the press assembled in Houston, got a
chance to go on mike and actually directly ask the astronauts
questions. They had three astronauts in the Apollo program. This
was unheard of, this was amazing, this was wonderful, this was
So we’re looking at our clocks and watches, and we're looking at
the monitors, and we’ve got the links, you know, satellite links
to Houston. And we’re waiting in essence for the spacecraft to
rise above the horizon at Goldstone, California, where there’s a
huge big dish - a 64-foot satellite antenna, basically - that is
looking at the spacecraft between Earth and moon, and is going
to take the signal and receive and send the actual questions.
And of course, for that to happen it has to be able to see the
spacecraft because it’s on a rotating Earth, and the geometry of
the moon, and where the spacecraft is, and all that, could not
be changed. They had to wait for the spacecraft to rise over the
horizon in the desert at Goldstone before the press conference
So we’re sitting there and we’re, you know, talking to each
other and the executive's got his feet up on his desk, and
there's a bunch of other people sitting on these couches, and
K: Are you at JPL?
R: No, no, we’re in New York at the CBS news broadcast center on
West 57th street, hooked in electronically. Even in those dark
ages we had television by satellite and we were able to see what
was going on. We were watching the monitors, we were watching
Houston, and we were watching the press corps.
And we’re waiting for the astronauts to appear electronically,
they also had a TV camera in the spacecraft.
We’re all waiting
for them and Houston to be able to connect with them via the
Goldstone ground station, and the PIO - the Public Information
Officer - comes on and says:
“You know, we’re waiting for the
spacecraft to rise above the horizon of the mountains at
So I’m 23, right? And I’m thinking that this is weird; this
doesn’t make any sense. So I took out your typical clichéd
envelope, and I started scribbling some equations.
And you know,
you basically take the radius of the earth, the way it rotates
and the height of the mountains, and I leaned over to my
executive producer and I said:
“Pssst, Bob - NASA’s lying”.
“What?" I said, “They’re lying to us”.
something so incredibly trivial, who cares? But I said,
telling the truth, the mountains that they’re waiting for the
spacecraft to rise over have to be 5,000 miles high. They had to
So it turned out later that what they were really doing is
waiting for Jules Bergman who had gotten drunk [Kerry laughing]
the previous night - who was the senior correspondent for space
for ABC News - he had gotten drunk, he got up late, he didn’t
make it to the press room in time, and NASA was covering with a
technical piece of BS so Jules Bergman - who was their pet
correspondent - could get on camera and ask the first question
in this historic “correspondent asks the astronaut in space”
live without a flight controller, without a CAPCOM in between.
That was my first example, on the record, of when I looked at
NASA and realized they were lying, and it was silly.
That is the background of how I got into the whole theory of
looking at Mars, looking at the moon, and looking at the
politics. Looking at the secret societies, the agendas and all
that. That first example where I was not believed because who
was I? I was just a consultant to CBS news.
NASA could do no wrong. I mean [Bob] Wussler basically said to
“You got to be nuts. There's no way!”
He accepted - we all
did in those days - NASA’s word over anybody else having to do
with the space program.
But what Dark Mission is, is an exposé that NASA can't be
trusted because starting with those 5,000 mile high mythical
mountains, they have not been, for forty years, telling us the
K: Fast forward here. You’ve written this incredible book. Tell
us that little story that you were telling us before, about the
moment on television, etc. Because it’s not real until it’s TV?
R: Well, where I got into this, when I started looking at data,
as opposed to the mountain thing - which was just stupidity -
when I started looking at data was on the occasion of the JPL
unmanned Viking probes in 1976, where I was again a
representative of CBS news at JPL for that incredible,
unbelievable, Viking summer.
That’s what we call it, “the Viking summer”. Where this nation,
on the bicentennial year, sent two unmanned spacecraft up to
land on Mars for the first time. And two more to orbit, taking
hundreds of thousands of pictures. It launched the official
investigation of the possibility of life on Mars.
Well, somewhat after this process began, somewhere around the
25th, I think, of July, one of the key guys in the Viking
mission - his name is Gerry Soffen - stood up in front of us at
JPL - we were out at California at the Jet Propulsion
Laboratory, JPL, which I think you have more that a passing
knowledge of - and Soffen stood up, and on the screen he had
projected a picture showing the face on Mars.
That quirky thing
with the little black specks on it. You know, with kind of a
snarled lip that has been in every book everywhere over the
planet for the last thirty or so years.
He pointed to it, and he said,
“Isn’t it funny what tricks of
light and shadow can do?”
Big laugh from all of us assembled
“When we took a picture a few hours later, it all
went away. It was just a trick of light and shadow.”
So I’m there, I’m another witness to this statement, to this
process. Fast-forward the film. I get into the process of
actually looking at the picture,
decades later, in the 1980s, in
the late ‘80s, around ’89. I found that everything that Soffen
told us also was a lie.
It wasn’t a trick of light and shadow. Where you do the actual
complete processing, it’s a stunningly symmetrical statue a mile
and a half long and a half a mile high. We’ve had umpteen images
now; we've had other independent computerized enhancements of
the various data.
There’s 3D modeling, there’s stereo, there’s shape form shading,
there’s all kinds of analysis and all of it, by the way,
performed by us outside NASA. NASA has ignored and simply told
everybody it's nonsense, just go away, go away.
Gosh, NASA says
But the key moment I discerned, when I went back to the
timelines, is that Gerry’s statement - I can call him Gerry
because I knew him pretty well - was also a lie.
There was no picture taken of the face on Mars a few hours
later. Technically, a few hours later, as Mars rotated and the
orbit of the Viking camera changed, that region of Mars was in
darkness. They couldn’t take a picture.
The next opportunity to take a picture was one month later -
actually 35 days. The picture was taken, which is unusual
because at that time on a mission they hardly ever took two
pictures of the same piece of real estate.
They had to wait a month to come back in the geometry to take a
second picture. Which of course, if you look at it from the
outside, somebody was checking if it was the same thing there on
the frame at a different sun angle - then science says it’s
It probably was a real face, it probably was a real statue, it
was a real enigma, a real incredible breakthrough in what NASA
and Viking claim they were searching for. Life on Mars! Except
of course they lied to us, they lied to us, they lied to us.
They’ve been lying on this subject for thirty years. That’s what
got me into asking:
“is this really that they’re lying, or are
they just fools? Are they scientists who have no conception of
how real science should operate?”
... which is when you see
something that is so stunningly in the middle of your paradigm,
you have a mission.
You have a whole taxpayer funded mission, billions of dollars
spent looking for life on Mars. Well, a mile wide statue kind of
is life... it's built by somebody, maybe.
So isn’t the
scientific method to check it out? No... instead of checking it
out, they ran at warp nine in the other direction.
K: Okay, but if they were lying back then, and that was one of
their first missions to Mars...
R: It was the first mission.
K: ...then they must have been prepared to lie. I mean, isn’t
that the supposition? They knew what they were going to find? Is
this when the secret space program was already in operation
prior to this mission?
R: Okay, this now gets a little technical. Viking was not the
first mission to Mars. The first was Mariner 4 in 1965. The
second was Mariners 6 and 7, that occurred during the Apollo
summer when I was covering the first manned landings on the moon
with Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin.
We went from North American Rockwell, where we had built a whole
studio complex, including a walk through solar system, which was
my idea. We went up the street, up the hill to JPL, to finish
covering the Apollo return, because they were about half way
between Earth and moon.
We also had to cover the Mariner 6 fly-by and 7 fly-by to Mars,
the second unmanned mission. Then the third unmanned mission
that was sent to Mars by the US was in 1971, called Mariner 9.
But as opposed to being a fly-by, you would basically take the
two shots as you go away forever. It was the first US spacecraft
to go into orbit around Mars. It radically transformed all of
So as I reconstructed history, I’m looking at the Viking images
of Cydonia, the face on Mars. I’m saying:
”there had to exist
somewhere - and we've not found them, and they are not in any
public file - there have to exist secret images taken by Mariner
9 in 1971."
Viking was in 1976, and you’ve got '72, '73, '74,
'75, five years to have predetermined there was something really
interesting down there on the plains of Cydonia.
So where they
put Viking into orbit, they knew exactly where to take the new
much better pictures.
Bill: Was it discussed as a possibility that Viking had actually
gone into Cydonia, but it was dismissed as being too rocky?
R: Yes, you remember that exactly correct. The first landing
site was in something called “the plains of gold” - Chryse
Planitia in Latin - and the second landing site they were
talking about landing in Cydonia.
Now, before everybody gets their hearts aflutter, you've got to
keep in mind this is like landing in North America, or landing
in Albuquerque, or like landing in my back yard. Cydonia is a
BIG place, Mr. Scott - quoting from Star Trek.
So even if they had planned to land in Cydonia, the odds are we
would have been nowhere near the interesting stuff where the
face and the city and all that complex is located. What’s
interesting to me politically, is that after the initial
announcement, which they were going to land in Cydonia after the
first pictures were taken by the Viking 1 Orbiter.
The trajectory of the second spacecraft, coming along behind,
not even put into the orbit around Mars yet, was changed so they
would land in a completely different place. Whoever was doing
the programming didn’t want even the possibility that they might
land by accident in Cydonia and see this stuff up close.
K: Okay, so I’m assuming that you’re talking about ruins that
they knew about and they had prior knowledge - and you’re saying
they had prior knowledge because they had another space program?
R: That’s one level of prior knowledge that we can prove.
Unquestionably, we can prove... except we haven’t found the
missing Mariner 9 images. We found Mariner 9 images of other
interesting things that were discussed. Carl Sagan in “Cosmos”
talked about the pyramids of Elysium. They’re these huge several
miles wide tetrahedral pyramids located halfway around the
planet from Cydonia.
In one of
Carl Sagan’s books he actually relates them in an
interesting metaphorical passage to each other. I don’t remember
the details, but I thought it was strikingly intriguing - both
at the time and in hindsight - that Carl would connect those
But that’s the only pretty hard data we have. We know we have a
spacecraft in station at Mariner 9. We know we had another
spacecraft come along five years later, Viking. It’s logical to
assume if we had really good shots, perfectly framed, of the
face on Mars and the pyramids from Viking, that they could have
had prior knowledge from the lower resolution images from
Mariner 9. That’s not a stretch, that’s not a leap at all.
What I think gets really interesting is when you begin to ask
the questions. Is it possible they know there was something
there to photograph at all from a long long time ago in history
far far away?
That gets back to the three groups running NASA inside. The
Nazis, the Masons and the Magicians. Because two of those
groups, the Nazis and Masons we know had textual evidence,
ancient documents, stuff, text, books, records, leftover from a
long time ago.
That’s kind of like they’re shooting the script. They’ve been
using it to basically go around the solar system and take
pictures of stuff that they have intimations exist out there,
but don’t have scientific proof.
K: So you’re talking about
ancient texts. Do you know the names
of them? Have you seen them? Are they at all out in the public
R: Yes and no. I’m trying now to remember the specifics, because
there’s so much mythology that in fact as you begin to get into
it, it’s more like mangled history.
We do know, for instance, that Hitler set up a whole section of
the SS to do nothing but go around the world and steal all the
good stuff. All the ancient stuff. In fact, I was so
anticipating when Spielberg came out with the film “Raiders of
the Lost Ark” that he was going to really blow all the doors off
and show us that the Ark, and all the stuff the Nazis were
intrigued with, was not anything out of the Old Testament. In
fact, it was ancient technology buried on this planet,
accessible from previous epochs of civilization. Some of who
could have built spaceships and gone to Mars and done this stuff
that we see there, but that’s not the direction he went.
K: Okay, but you’re saying that’s true.
R: Well, I’m saying it's possible. I’m not saying it’s true, I’m
saying it’s possible, and I remember a lot of this has to do
with perception. You know there’s an old cliché:
99% perception; it doesn’t matter if something is true”.
politically people perceive it to be true, and then act upon
that belief, that can make it true.
So let’s say these two groups, who have access to secret
information, ancient texts -
the Nazis and
the Masons. That they
believed that there once was a civilization on Mars for whatever
reason, and they went there when they controlled the space
program looking for that evidence... and BINGO, they found it.
That 20th century confirmation then validates the hints and
rumors and intimations in those ancient texts.
K: Sure. Are you positing that the Nazis had a space program?
R: No, no.
R: They wanted to, they were building toward it. I’m looking now
very seriously into the possibilities for that kind of
technology that early on. What I find is a very interesting
pattern, as we get deeper and deeper into the whole Nazi era.
Who they were, what they believed, where they came from, their
lineal roots, which goes back much farther, it looks like.
Hundreds of years, then the brief flurry after World War I,
leading up to World War II.
The Nazi philosophy, the idea that human beings are not from
this planet, that there is this special race of Aryans. I mean
Aryans... Mars, duh! That they may in fact be grounded in some
ancient documents, which had been super secret and kept revered
and deified almost is not beyond reality. I just don’t happen to
have copies with me this afternoon. I’d love to see some.
K: Okay, are you in touch with scholars, for example, that are
specializing in that area?
R: Yes, yes, absolutely. In fact one of them is a really cool
guy that you guys should interview. His name is
He’s in South Dakota. He'll be here in January. He's an Oxford
scholar, and an Oxford PhD. He’s written five books on this
subject. He meticulously footnotes documents, tract, and
references, and unearths amazing memos and a paper trail.
He has given me, as a serious scholar, who’s also a pretty nice
guy, an amazing new window on the antecedents for the Nazis the
US government brought over, buried in the core of our very own
space program, who seem to have had their own agenda apart from
Eisenhower, Kennedy and the American people.
K: So you say Werner Von Braun...
R: Kurt Debus.
K: I’m sorry?
R: Kurt Debus.
R: ...who seems to have somehow involved in efforts to create
amazingly interesting alternative rocket technology that’s not
rocket based, for space travel.
K: Free energy based?
R: Field propulsion...
K: Torsion based?
R: Field propulsion, which is a way of manipulating space-time
so on the one hand you get anti-gravity, on the other hand you
get free energy.
K: Okay, so when was he operating?
R: Kurt Debus?
Paperclip through the entire Apollo program.
K: So this is the end of World War II?
R: World War II through the ‘50s into the ‘60s into the ‘70s,
and he was made the head of Cape Canaveral slash Cape Kennedy,
and he had this entire secret background that never once has
come out in any official document from NASA or any other place.
K: Now how do you know about him?
R: Because of Joseph Farrell, and his studying and research.
He’s got German documents; he reads German. That helps. You
know, you’ve got real scholarship. We have always been - those
of us looking at this cutting edge, of the transition between
fake history and real history - we’ve always been limited by the
fact that there has been basically a field of amateurs. Some of
them are talented amateurs; some of them are idiot amateurs. I
have a phrase, which has been made true over and over again:
“Amateurs can get you killed.”
People like Farrell are not amateurs, and when they have turned
their expertise in scholarship, trained at a place like Oxford
on this problem, you wind up with five amazing books that
document, page after page, a real hidden history.
The alternatives to what the Nazis were doing technologically
and politically, and how they almost seamlessly continued by
going from one set of sponsors, i.e. Hitler et al, to another
set of sponsors, i.e. the US government et al - without even a
break for lunch.
In the book we have this stunning picture of Von Braun and all
these Paperclip scientists standing under a kind of cute western
motif. It’s a sign hung on spindles up above the assembled
scientists, and it’s a UFO.
It’s an actual cutout shaped as an unidentified flying object
slash saucer craft. In the middle of it, there’s a big swastika.
This is in the USA after we won the war. These guys are on shore
leave on their way from White Sands into El Paso. It’s a curio
shop called “Bob’s Curio Shop” and the photograph - the
enlargements are in the book - and of course the reason the
swastika’s on it is so stunningly important, as we describe in
rather great detail in the book.
It was because
the swastika was a symbol that Hitler stole from
history going all the way back to the Vedas... this ancient
Indian tradition that talks about spacecraft, the nuclear
weapons, and all kinds of astonishing high tech stuff back in
the time when there should be no such high tech stuff.
What Hitler did was take it, co-opted it, and used it for his
own political and propaganda purposes very consciously - because
what the swastika is are insights into an entirely different
level of reality which I term hyper-dimensional physics.
Out of which, you get on one hand if you really do it right:
anti-gravity, making rockets obsolete. Then free energy making
centralized power plants and centralized power and the control
of people through the price of oil also obsolete.
So on both hands, you’ve got under proven now Nazi research and
development efforts during and after World War II. You’ve got
the keys to liberating civilization all over this planet. Six
billion people freed, and someone is sitting on that truth and
it’s one of those three groups running NASA secretly: the Nazis.
K: The Nazis' lineage continued on to this day, is what you’re
R: Yes, even now as we speak.
K: And we have descendents running NASA?
R: Sure. I don’t know who they are.
K: You don’t?
R: Well no, because when the old guard died, or retired and then
died, they didn’t say,
“Oh, and this guy is coming in to fill my
place and he’s also a card-carrying member of the Nazi party, of
the national socialist party."
So what you have is a philosophy that doesn’t identify itself.
They’ve gotten more sophisticated. They realized after the
debacle of World War II that maybe people really weren’t going
to take that kind of overt.
So what we’ve had now in the country, if you just look around,
look around, you have the creeping fascism. You have the Nazi
philosophy in every bedroom, under every roof, in every public
You have people looking into the camera trying to
tell us with a straight face:
“it's constitutional to read all
of our emails, to tap into our telephone conversations, to
eavesdrop. To have the cable guy come in to see if you are doing
This is right out of Nazi Germany, and it's not confined
unfortunately to NASA.
K: So when you talk about the Nazis running the space program,
you’re talking about back when after World War II you’ve got the
V2 rocket, from what I understand... so that’s a group, right?
K: And you’ve got the atomic bomb that they’re creating or,
they’re taking the technology out of Germany and...
R: Well, we’ve been living under the historical record that the
US on the Manhattan Project crash program developed the atomic
bomb, and that Japan and Germany are the two major antagonists
in World War II, although they had little small efforts.
They were going down the wrong path. They didn’t have enough
money; they didn’t have the right guys. It basically was no
competition to the big US, which put all this money - two
billion dollars in 1940s money, which now would translate to
maybe two trillion dollars of 21st century money.
We created the atomic bomb, and used it twice in anger against
Japan during the war.
According to Farrell, that might not be
exactly what happened. There appears to be, from the documents,
a much more sophisticated, much more advanced maybe even
functional atomic research program in Germany which at least
created and detonated one atomic weapon in test.
In his book he cites where and when and who was involved and all
that. It looks like that knowledge was brought over after the
war. It didn’t help us during the war, but it was brought over
In part, we actually may have taken some of the uranium to be
used in one of the atomic bombs from German sources. There’s a
story about a U-boat that was bringing enriched uranium, and we
got to it, and it was heading originally to Japan.
I mean, this is a extraordinary new interesting insight into how
World War II was produced and progressed and prosecuted. It may
not be ultimately when the end of the day arrives, it may not be
the history we’ve been reading for the last 50 years or the
actual history everybody really lived.
K: Okay, but you have a group that’s also dealing with
energy or these craft that the Nazis were also developing in
addition to the...
R: Maybe, maybe... you always have to have caution with this
R: There are people who say yes, and there are people say no. It
really ultimately in science depends on the experiments and the
documents. Even those documents when it comes to the actual
technology they were really involved in, these cutting edge
technologies are very ambiguous.
They could be interpreted in several ways. Now I think in part
it’s because the good stuff has not been released yet, or it
hasn’t even been found yet. There are mysterious deaths
associated with some of his documentation.
For instance, towards the end of the War, Patton died suddenly
and mysteriously. Apparently he was heading a group, a sixth
army, that was headed for the border between Czechoslovakia and
somewhere else, to find in mines these buried documents from the
secret black ops, Nazi high tech projects. So until you get the
documentation it's all rumors and remember...
K: So is the idea that maybe he found the documents and them was
R: Or he didn’t find them, and was killed because he was looking
and wasn’t going to give up.
We don’t know, and you have to go to Farrell’s work to see that
entire story; and here I am promoting another author’s work,
which I really want to do, because Joseph Farrell is a
stunningly important scholar who I have the pleasure of knowing,
and as I said we're going to be meeting here in a few weeks.
K: Well, maybe we’ll come back and do an interview with both of
R: That would be useful, I think very useful.
K: So what I’m wondering now, is we’ve got three groups. You’ve
talked about the Nazis...
R: We’ve only talked about two so far.
K: Well, not a whole lot, no not at all really. So take us to
the Masons and Magicians, and how do they work into NASA along
with the Nazis?
R: Well, the Masons of course founded the United States. I mean
the Masonic tradition philosophy is a stunningly important
adjunct to the advancement and evolution of the human species.
To the old army phrase “be all that you can be”, Masons are not
bad guys. Masons are good guys.
K: Are we talking about Freemasons?
R: Yeah, yeah. They are heirs apparent of the Templars. You
know, from the Middle Ages, who became very powerful by finding
something in Jerusalem underneath the Temple Mount.
They became the most powerful organization in Europe. They
literally own Europe, in essence. They created a free banking
system. They created so many modern institutions that we would
recognize, like when you go to your ATM.
Philippe the Fair, the King of France in 1307, on a Friday the
13th lowered the boom and killed a lot of them. Imprisoned most
of them, and chased some of them, and never found a lot of the
important stuff that they were keeping in secret. Including an
awful lot of money, an awful lot of money.
The rumors have been that the money was stashed up at someplace
called “Oak Island”, and that FDR and other Masons periodically
have funded or have gotten private funding to go and try and dig
it up. That is a whole other story, for a whole other video.
The fact is the Masons were good guys. Now James Webb, who was
Kennedy’s administrator at NASA, handpicked, was a 33rd degree
Mason. When you read Webb’s biography, not his autobiography,
which of course was written by him, but his biography written by
somebody that was trying to figure out who James Webb really
What Webb was doing is very clear in these pages. He was trying
to take the best of what NASA was created to do, which was to
find out what was out there; to use it as a system both at the
high school level, and the university level. To infuse cutting
edge new technologies in American industry, which of course
creates products, which elevate the entire economy of the entire
You can look at his program, and it was a mandate to take
everything NASA found that he could get his hands on and make it
useful for the benefit of the American taxpayer. It’s really all
there. You have to read it.
What happened? I believe the two philosophies, the two
metaphysical tradition between the Masons and the Nazis are so
close, the Nazis were able to come in and take over the Masons
almost unknown, seamlessly, secretly, quietly... "like a thief
in the night”, as the phrase goes.
I don’t think the Masons realized it until it was too late. That
they’d been had, that they’d been taken over. That the
objectives that they were pursuing which they also were keeping
from the public by pronouncing, but they were trying to
It’s the secrecy that got them in trouble, because if you try to
do things secretly, in secrecy terrible things can happen. Their
biggest tactical mistake was not going public with what they had
Instead of trying to implement it quietly, to gradually evolve
this culture in a direction that it had to go. Where aliens is
not a dirty word. Where we can actually
talk about ETs, and our
ancestry, and all the stuff that’s out there that they found,
and not freak people out.
K: That who found, the Masons or the Nazis?
R: NASA. The program itself, the NASA program. The program you
have the people in charge of behind the scenes.
K: What I wanted to know is back with the Nazis in Germany. They
had this technology that was incredible and supposedly...
R: We don’t know that.
K: Like back-engineering... they had the atomic bomb, you’re
R: No, I said possibly. It’s all not known. It’s possible.
K: Okay, so we’ve got Farrell, there are documents that lead in
R: They strongly intimate, but they don’t prove.
R: Not yet, no proof.
K: But it had to come from somewhere, the idea was that
was ET contact; there was a whole development of a psychic
R: Whose idea?
K: Back in the Nazi era.
R: Yes, but from whom?
K: Good question. I’m asking you.
R: Well, I’m not a Nazi expert. I backed into this through the
NASA doorway. I’m trying to back-engineer politically what got
us in this mess.
R: And I’m looking, and we look in Dark Mission, at these
various paper trails and they lead back to the shadowy groups.
You know, good guys and obviously bad guys, but they believe the
Remember, there’s the dark and the light. You can take the same
knowledge... I mean I can take nuclear energy and make a bomb,
or I can make a reactor. One lights cities and gives people
power and energy, and the other destroys them.
So there’s always this double-edged sword with any knowledge
base. You can use it for good, or you can use it for evil. The
Masons historically tried good. The Nazis demonstrably use it
for evil. It’s very very metaphysical.
K: Okay, so if we’ve got a dark mission and we’ve got two space
programs, and they all stem back to Nazi Germany...
K: ...their roots exist there. These people running the
programs, the heritage going through. The through line is the
Nazi through line, and the same thing, Nazis, Masons, and we
haven’t talked about the Magicians but they are all stemming
from some kind of belief in extraterrestrial life. Is this not
true, because where you’re going is the place on Mars?
R: Is that where I’m going? [Smiling]
K: [Laughing] Isn’t that where we’re going?
K: I mean in essence, what you’re saying is that we have NASA in
relatively present day lying to us about the face on Mars - with
an intention. You don’t just lie...
R: No, it’s definitely to cover it up.
R: Remember, this is a nest of lies. The lie is different at
every level. The first lie that the good guys of NASA believed
was a report they commissioned themselves - just as Eisenhower
was phasing out, and Kennedy was coming in, in 1958-59 and then
the early ‘60s.
This was a report... now remember, NASA itself was only formed
50 years ago, in July of ’58.
So a half-century ago,
“I can’t have all these warring military
factions control space. I will create a civilian agency, and it
will be the nexus for all peaceful space activity. The Defense
Department will conduct all military space operations.”
Well, the first thing we show in Dark Mission is that’s a lie.
NASA is not a civilian space agency. It's a military space
agency. It was always formed under the fiat and control of the
National Security Council, Department of Defense, any of the intel agencies. All of its data that are viewed as not
appropriate for the public knowledge or concern can be
classified. Even from its own people.
K: So it’s not for public knowledge if it has to do with the
control of space?
R: We don’t know that. We know under the law anything that the
President or his minions deem classifiable can be classified.
They don’t have to give a rationale.
K: Okay, but I’m asking you what’s the rationale for classifying
the space program?
R: If you have a vanguard agency whose mandate is to boldly go
where no one has gone before, and you know because you’ve got
secret documents that say it’s out there, that they’re going to
run into artifacts, ETs, old libraries, generators, spaceships,
God knows what, and you don’t want to tell the people that’s
what you’re really looking for, then you will create in law an
agency which only can let them know what you want them to know,
and keep all the good stuff secret - which we prove with the
charter itself in Dark Mission is what NASA is.
Every time a spokesperson comes out and says, “we’re a civilian
agency”, that person probably believes it because he hasn’t read
I now have people arguing with me on the various conversations
on the web. I’m on Graham Hancock’s forum in England, and there
are people arguing that Hoagland doesn’t understand how to read
the charter, that it's only a metaphor.
No, it's not a metaphor because there are several sections to
the Space Act that clearly reaffirm the absolute right of the
President to classify any NASA data he does not want to make
That makes it a military organization. Simple. Civilians would
be independent. They’d be able to publish science, from what I
was taught, is publish or perish. You find something, write
about it, and put it on paper. It's out there in the periodic
literature, and let people have at it.
You then get a consensus: well, he’s right on this, wrong on
that, we’re going to go get more data, and the process goes on.
That’s not what NASA is allowed externally to do. It has careful
clear prescriptions in the law that it can only release what it
is allowed to by the President and the White House and all the
various other branches of the executive branch.
K: Okay, but you’re saying their motivation is to hide
information about the ruins...
K: About ruins that tell what? The history, or the history of
other beings out there?
R: Well, again it depends on what you would find. If the name of
the game is to keep us suppressed through physics and
technology, and you have an economy that unconsciously is
dependent on oil, the world is controlled through oil, through
the dollar. There’s a huge fight now going on between the dollar
and the Euro.
That’s why we went in and invaded Iraq, because he was going to
go to the Euro. The Iranians just went to the Euro; we’re
threatening nuclear war. Gosh! Let's put those dots together.
Its about political and economic control. So you go out to the
moon, or you go to Mars, or one of the moon of Jupiter, and you
find a working alternative energy power plant that’s the size of
a teacup and it can run half a city.
Do you want that in the public data stream? Do you want people
to realize there’s a way to do things without drilling in the
Middle East and all political and economic infrastructures
that’s been built up?
I don’t think so. That plan obviously has been in place for the
last 40 years. As the oil economy was building up, people could
project. People demand more energy; they want more stuff or
gadgets. Were going to build them computers someday, they are
going to have SUV’s, all of the stuff we take for granted we
sell incessantly on this screen [points to computer] creating a
consumer society that is fueled totally by oil energy. Nuclear
energy is a tiny percentage, compared to the oil energy of the
Would you want to enter into that mix an alternative energy
system technology that would allow every house to get off the
grid, every person to be sovereign, suddenly? They would have
unlimited amounts of energy from a thing running in their
basement that they never have to look at and touch again in
Just by flipping a switch that would draw energy out of space
out of another dimension. It would be hyper-dimensional. No, not
if you’re into control - because how do you control people?
keep them dependent on you for the critical resources of life,
and energy is a critical resource of life.
Try living in your home for two days without it. You’ll learn
very quickly, as Art used to say,
“you basically have a very
K: You’re talking about NASA is covering secrets because of
R: No, I’m saying they could have, that’s one possible
rationale. Frankly I don’t think that’s the best one. My bet -
and again these are outside bets - I don’t have sources telling
me this is what is going on. Even if I did, would I believe
them? No, I would have to find records and data and evidence to
check to counterpoint what they’re telling me. I frankly think
it’s the religious thing.
K: Okay, that’s a HUGE lead-in thing, let's cut!