by Peter Little


PL: Across Australia, this is Peter Little of the Community Radio Network with the program
“Cover-to-Cover”… and on the line from somewhere in Europe, we have Tony Bushby, author of a very controversial book called
The Bible Fraud…. G’day Tony.
TB: Good morning Peter. How are you today?

PL: Well, thanks Tony. But let’s get into this by asking… Who is Tony Bushby?
TB: Well Peter, I guess the simplest thing I could say is that I’m an Australian who has spent around about thirty years of my life in the publishing industry and, during that time, I researched and wrote quite a few high quality specialist magazines for the Australian and New Zealand markets. That took many years of my life and I had a lot of fun with that… publishing and writing.

PL: What prompted you to write The Bible Fraud, Tony?
TB: Well, during my course of publishing magazines, I did a lot of international research on Near Death Experience, which fascinated me, and I spoke to over 500 people worldwide who had been revived from clinical death. I published a quality color magazine on the subject called “Glimpses of Life Beyond Death.”
Some of these people’s stories, Peter, were extraordinary and one particular lady came to see me. She was quite an elderly lady… probably in her early seventies and she had a Near Death Experience. She had fallen down with a heart attack at the front door and the neighbors over the road saw her collapse and rang the ambulance and she was taken away and revived. She came back and then she couldn’t explain what happened to her… this wonderful experience where she was reunited with her Mum and Dad who had been deceased for quite some time.
So she went to see her priest and he told her that this experience really didn’t happen and that she had been tempted by the Devil because Jesus wasn’t there to meet her. This lady was quite mentally perturbed because she had this experience and she just didn’t know what happened to her. So the Church teachings and her actual experience conflicted and she was on the verge of committing suicide.
We had a good talk together and she actually really stressed the point that somebody should go out and tell the world that what happens when you die is not what the Church tells you what happens. She got me thinking about the Bible, which led me into some deeper research, and I came to a series of conclusions that seriously conflicted with the actual Church teachings… and that of course, led me into deeper research. Hence today… The Bible Fraud… which is the first of a series of three books about the Bible.

PL: This took how many years to research? I have got a figure down here saying twelve years. That sounds extraordinary!
TB: Yes well, it actually was Peter. It was twelve years full time and there was quite a few years leading up to it. Some of those years… five thousand hours, one hundred hours a week is not really enough and during that time, I had some extraordinary experiences in being introduced to wonderful, old archival libraries and some extraordinary material that is not freely available to the public… in fact at one stage, I actually lived in an old archival library for ten weeks and slept on a mattress on the floor.

PL: You didn’t find any discomfort in all that, I suppose?
TB: I loved every minute of it.

PL: Now, these private archives that you talk about, where are they located?
TB: Well, most places around the world seem to have an old library that nobody seems to want to use. In London, one old lady had seven hundred and sixty-three Bibles hidden away in her closets. In New Zealand, there are some wonderful old archival libraries in private collections that came out from England many years ago and are never used. It’s quite sad to see these books locked away like that.

PL: Also I imagine you were able to tap into some of the Church libraries around the world… the religious libraries.
TB: They do have what they call their Manuscript Divisions and I was lucky enough to get into some of those and also the Rare Manuscripts Division of the British Museum. They have a massive collection of old writings and old manuscripts and also the Alexandrian Library in Egypt. They have got over one hundred thousand rare manuscripts in their vaults.

PL: You can access those without much trouble?
TB: You can with the right approach. Yes, most certainly.

PL: With the right connections I suppose?
TB: Not so much connections. If you are a genuine bona fide researcher, they will get you in.

PL: So what do you hope to accomplish with the book, Tony?
TB: Well, I seem to think I have got onto some information that hasn’t been freely available Peter, and publishing this book provides for another side to the story regarding the origins of Christianity and that story is a different story to that presented by the Churches. So we have got out there a public record with this information available for people to add to or do their own research or take it or leave it… whatever they like.

PL: Having had read the book, it would appear that the New Testament story of Jesus Christ is, in your interpretation, a fabrication.
TB: Well, I would have to say straight up, Peter that it’s a forgery in its entirety and is knowingly presented by the Church falsely. They know there are forged passages in it and they come out quite clearly and state that. So my position is to point out those fabrications and forgeries and see if we can get down to what really happened in the origins of the story of Jesus Christ.

PL: The thing that I also found confronting is you saying that the Virgin Mary had seven children.
TB: Well, what I’m actually saying there Peter is….. I don’t necessarily say that. The Gospels say that. The older the Gospels you use, the more clearly it is presented. The Church’s own Gospels state that she had seven children and one of those boys was called Judas Thomas. Now, he was the brother of Jesus as was James. Thomas was an Aramaic word for “Twin”… Tomas meaning “Twin”. So Judas was a twin and he is often called “Judas the Twin” in some variations of the Gospels. He is the twin brother of the person we know today as Jesus Christ. This fact is conveniently overlooked by many of the priesthood today.
So in the story in
The Bible Fraud, we have actually unraveled the whole life stories of both the boys:

One became a Rabbi - who is Rabbi Jesus - and the other became rather a wild drinking man - who is Judas Thomas the Twin. They had two entirely separate lives.

When you read the New Testament, Peter with that understanding, it accounts for all the contradictions and all the problems within it.

PL: Just to recap, you are saying Jesus had a twin brother, that Mary the mother of Jesus had a number of children and all these things are clearly explained in your book The Bible Fraud.
TB: Yes, it’s fully unraveled.

PL: Did I hear correctly you saying that the Church authorities or elders are fully aware of this and are not prepared to verify that?
TB: Yes, that’s right. They actually make these statements quite plain and clear in not so much the modern encyclopedias but in their old editions. The 1907 Catholic Encyclopedia clearly stated that the virgin birth narratives are fourth century fictitious editions to earlier writings. This is quite disturbing really because this is one of the tenants to Christianity and they are actually telling us in writing that it didn’t really happen.

PL: It terms of the whole virgin birth story…. I picked up in the book that the mother of Jesus was in fact part of the nobility.
TB: That’s right. In the oldest Gospel, she is written down with the name as Mariamne. Now,
Mariamne was the granddaughter of King Herod. In fact, she was his favorite granddaughter and she was of bloodline. It appears, from the scanty records available, that she was raped by a Roman archer and his nickname was “The Panther.”  This man later became the Emperor of Rome in 14AD. He was Tiberius who was the adopted son of Emperor Augustus.
Mariamne bore the twins and they were hidden away for a while in the House of Augustus. They were both quite clearly of royal blood and we see in the Gospels itself where Jesus is called King over thirty times yet records of history never record Jesus as being King. We found an old record in our research that those twin boys were actually brought up in the House of Augustus. Because Augustus and the twelve first Caesars were deified, these twin boys were called the “Sons of God”. That was quite correct in the traditions of the day. They were technically the “Sons of God” because, after these Roman emperors died, they were deified. They were classed as gods and holidays were held for them and these boys were the “Sons of God” in the technical sense of the time.

PL: You are saying these two boys… one was a man of the cloth, a Rabbi and the other was a bit of a lad, was he?
TB: One was a bit of a lad. One was esoteric. He adopted a spiritual understanding and belief and he became the Rabbi. The other fellow was exoteric. He became a very earthly man and he was the one who ordered his followers to buy swords. They were drinking men and they were pretty wild boys. So these two boys went their own ways. One became responsible indirectly for the King James Bible and the other became responsibly indirectly for the Roman Catholic Bible. One went east and one went west and this is where we get the two variations in the Bibles used in churches today.

PL: This is fascinating stuff. It is all revealed there in the book. I can talk about this for a long time with you Tony. Let’s keep going because, if you are prepared for a few more minutes to discuss this, we’ll keep going.
TB: OK, right.

PL: Are you happy about that?
TB: Yes.

PL: Great stuff. Well, in the book, the death of Jesus is not as we have been led to believe either. Is that what you are saying in the book?
TB: That’s exactly right. The two boys had their own lives. The wild, fighting man, Judas the Twin… he was actually arrested. He marched on Rome with a large group of warriors. He went to see his father, who was then the Emperor Tiberius and he wanted his royal right to be the Emperor of Rome. He was actually betrayed by Judas Iscariot, who was an infiltrator from the Roman army. Judas the Twin was captured and charged. He was the one to be crucified because he had marched on Rome and he had been caught and this was seen as an overthrow so he was to be crucified.
Because of his royal birthright… he was first born… he had the right to order a substitute to take his punishment. This is a very ancient tradition that goes way, way back to the Egyptian times where a royal person could order a substitute to take the punishment. So a person called Simon of Cyrene… we read about him in the Gospels… he was pulled in off the street.

PL: He picked up the cross.
TB: That’s right. He was punished. He was the one crucified.

PL: He was the one crucified, was he? He just didn’t pick up the cross and carry it?
TB: That’s him. That’s recorded in the Gospels. He was crucified in place of Judas the Twin. Now, because Judas the Twin had given up his birthright by saving his own life, he was then sold into slavery. He was shipped off to India and there is a tomb there in Kashmir today, which we believe to be the actual tomb of the twin of Jesus. Now, because Rabbi Jesus and his family were involved in overthrow and the crucifixion…

PL: This is the good bloke now we are talking about?
TB: Yes, he was the Rabbi. He was there. He was at the scene. He and his family were banished from Rome and they were set adrift in a ship. They drifted ashore in the south of France at Marseilles and they trekked overland to England and they settled at the place we now know as Glastonbury. That was the start of the origin of the British Church, which preceded the origin of the Roman Catholic Church by some three hundred years. One went to England and one went to India.

PL: So you say the Celtic Church…
TB: Yes, that was actually in operation when Rabbi Jesus arrived there. He became an honorary Druid… he was actually initiated into the Druidic belief.

PL: Tony, that being the case, is it possible to follow the present royal bloodline back to Jesus?
TB: It is, Peter. It’s quite complex. Jesus at one stage was married to Mary Magdalene… she was, from the old records, a Celtic princess… and, from their union, came a certain bloodline. Later on, one of Jesus’ sons was named Caradoc… he was married to two Roman princesses of the line of Claudius. So, the bloodline is in there. It’s quite a complex issue to trace it back but it can be traced right down to today.

PL: Of the current British monarch?
TB: Well, they properly call it the European bloodline.

PL: OK. Right… and the book goes right through that. So somebody who wants to painstakingly go through with a paper and pencil can do the whole program right through to…?
TB: They can. The family bloodline trees are recorded in the book and it tells the story of the two boys, who they married, where their families went to and how the families ended up. It goes right down to the first Christian Council… which was in 325 AD… which was called by a bloodline family member of the twin boys. He was Constantine and he was responsible for the very first Christian Church meeting.

PL: Constantine… he was the same bloke that started Constantinople, wasn’t he?
TB: He was there. That’s him. He named Constantinople after himself and he was of the same blood as the twin boys, Rabbi Jesus and Judas the Twin. He called the first council meeting at Nicaea and actually brought their two life stories together as one and then officially deified those two boys into one. He then instructed the old Bishops of the day to write fifty New Testaments… in mankind’s recorded history, the first New Testaments weren’t written until 325 AD. He ordered the actual construction of fifty versions. That’s when the New Testament really started at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

PL: Was this motivated by some political advantage or social unrest at the time?
TB: Well, mainly to keep his family bloodline in the Church and he could see a problem there… there was talk amongst the old Churchmen of Jesus was having two natures. The problem was they had the two twin boys mixed up so he deified them both as one and combined both parts of their name and they became Jesus Christ. So it’s quite a complex story.

PL: It certainly is!
TB: When you read the New Testament in that light… with two stories interwoven into one… it answers all the conflictions that arise there.

PL: Talking about the research…. and this is extraordinary research you have done there, Tony… I believe you once held the world’s oldest Bible, which is the Sinai Bible, in your hands. What was that like?
TB: It was quite an overwhelming experience actually. It was quite… I was quite emotional and this Bible is in the British Museum or today in the British Library. It’s on display. It’s been carbon dated to around about 380 - 390 AD. It’s written on the skin of animals. It’s in a humidor where it’s kept at a certain temperature and, quite honestly, it stinks when you open it… it’s written in an old Greek language which is now what we call a dead language. There was a story in the British Museum that people told me that Howard Hughes, the famous American multi-millionaire, once offered twenty-five million US dollars for that Bible and they wrote back one and a half lines to him saying this Bible belongs to the people of Planet Earth and would never be for sale.
It was a very emotional experience. It was very heavy… it’s mainly the Old and New Testaments in full but part of the Old Testament is missing… a small part. Right next to it in the British Library today is the second oldest Bible, which is the Alexandrian Bible. These are very valuable old documents and that’s the closest Bible we have got to the story of Jesus Christ.

PL: Not one you could sit down and read peacefully.
TB: Not a bedtime read, Peter, that’s for sure.

PL: Well, Tony what is your response to those who say we can believe the Bible because it’s the word of God?
TB: I would say they should really do their own research because the Bible is not the word of God… it’s the word of Man. It actually quotes that in the Bible itself. It’s been edited and re-edited and restructured and it is a fabrication in its entirety. I’m talking about the New Testament here and the story of Jesus. The Churchmen know this and anybody who disbelieves should do a little bit of their own research… quite simple research and they should do it.
They can do it quite easily… their own personal confirmation. All they have got to do Peter, is compare any of the five oldest Bibles in the world with any modern day Bible and they will see that there are fourteen thousand, eight hundred changes to the new Bibles today.
Some of those changes are major sections of writing… like there were no resurrection versions in the old Bibles for example. No virgin birth in the old Bibles. In all the old Bibles… all the old Gospels in the Bibles… the story of Jesus Christ starts when he is at the age of thirty and anything preceding that is a later addition in later Bibles. In the oldest Gospel available to us today, the story of Jesus ends when the tomb was found empty and the body removed. This was the body of Simon of Cyrene. Today’s Bibles will show another twelve verses after that where it talks about a resurrection.

PL: There have been many books in recent times that claim to reveal the truth about Jesus and a hidden code in the Bible. What makes this book different?
TB: Well, firstly, this book unravels the whole story of the twin boys… that’s the main thing. The Church says there is only one but they actually know there were two. Both their life stories accumulate into one ending, which is the deification of those boys.
The other books have touched on one boy or Jesus they thought being in India but that was actually the other boy… so when you work out where they both went and overlay it, you can see exactly how they started Christianity.

PL: What about yourself in terms of lecture tours and things, Tony? You have a fascinating story to tell there and it’s been a very interesting interview. Have you got any thoughts about a public appearance or lecture tours?
TB: I probably will later on, Peter. I’ve got another manuscript nearing completion, which I want to get out first… then I’ll probably start talking to people.

PL: Now, you have a website which I’ve checked out already. It’s very revealing… in fact, much of what we have discussed today is also on the website ( and my guest today has been Tony Bushby. When you read the book, it will certainly raise questions in your mind about your belief systems… of Christian values and things that one has learnt over the years and fire up a quest for the truth. I certainly recommend people get a hold of the book The Bible Fraud by Tony Bushby. It’s available now… and I guess, Tony that there is full detail on The Bible Fraud dot com website about how to purchase that particular book.
TB: That’s right Peter. And the website has recently been updated, so it’s got all the newest information on it and that’s where they can buy their own personal copy and they can…

PL: Make some informed discussions from that.
TB: That’s right. Decide for themselves whether it’s right or wrong.

PL: Well, Tony. It’s been fascinating talking to you. Thanks very much for your time and, folks, make sure you get a copy of this truly sensational book by Tony Bushby… it’s
The Bible Fraud published by The Pacific Blue Group and now available in all good book stores.