Madeline Ostrander: What do 
				you think a sustainable diet should look like?
				
				Joel Salatin: What would a sustainable diet look like? 
				Oh, my!
 
				
				
				Ostrander: Because it’s often talked about as a 
				vegetarian diet.
				
				Salatin: No, not at all. I think we need to go back to localized 
				diets, and in North America, yes, we can really grow perennials, 
				so there would be a lot of herbivore - lamb, beef - in a diet. 
				
				
				 
				
				And 
				our fruits and vegetables, which have a high water content, 
				would be grown close to home, preferably in our backyards. In 
				1945, 40 percent of all vegetables consumed in the United States 
				were grown in backyards.
				
				I think a local diet would have an indigenous flair. If you’re 
				along the coast, you’d eat more seafood. If you’re inland, you 
				would eat more herbivore and vegetables. If you’re in Florida, 
				you would eat more citrus. 
				
				
				 
				
				Historically, it’s not about the 
				relationship of meat to vegetables or whatever. It’s more about, 
				what does this area grow well with a minimum of inputs?
				 
				
				
				
				Ostrander: Cows have gotten a bad rap lately for their 
				contributions to environmental problems. What’s your response?
				
				Salatin: Don’t blame the cow for the negatives of the industrial 
				food system. All of the data that the anti-meat people use 
				assumes an irrigated, concentrated animal feeding operation. 
				
				
				
				 
				
				Over 50 percent of the annuals that we grow in American 
				agriculture are to feed cows. Cows aren’t supposed to eat corn. 
				They’re supposed to mow forage. It’s completely inverted from 
				nature’s paradigm. To use that inverted paradigm to demonize 
				grazing, the most efficacious mechanism for planet restoration, 
				is either consciously antagonistic to the truth or is ignorant 
				of the kind of synergistic models that are out here.
				
				Here’s the thing. There’s no system in nature that does not have 
				an animal component as a recycling agent. Doesn’t exist. Fruits 
				and vegetables do best if there is some animal component with 
				them - chickens or a side shed with rabbits. Manure is magic.
				
				Now, we could argue about how many animals we should be eating.
				
				 
				
				I really don’t think Americans should be eating so much chicken. 
				Because chicken requires grain; it’s an omnivore. Historically, 
				herbivores - beef, lamb, goat - were every man’s meat because they 
				could be raised on perennials. The kings ate poultry because 
				they’re the only ones who had enough luxury of extra foodstuffs 
				for birds.
				
				Poultry used to fill a recycling niche. Today, if every single 
				kitchen had enough chickens attached to it, there would not be 
				egg commerce in America. All the eggs could be produced from 
				kitchen scraps. 
				
				
				 
				
				What a wonderful thing that would be. There’s no 
				excuse for an egg factory.
				Beef cattle - there’s no excuse for a feedlot. We don’t need all 
				those irrigated acres in Nebraska. See? 
				
				
				 
				
				And suddenly all of the 
				data that the animal demonizers are using just crumbles like a 
				house of cards.
				 
				
				
				
				Ostrander: Your website says that your farm respects and honors 
				the animals you raise. What does it mean to respect an animal 
				and then eat it?
				
				Salatin: It is a profound spiritual truth that you cannot have 
				life without death. 
				
				
				 
				
				When you chomp down on a carrot and 
				masticate it in your mouth, that carrot is being sacrificed in 
				order for you to have life. Everything on the planet is eating 
				and being eaten. If you don’t believe it, just lie naked in your 
				flower bed for three days and see what gets eaten. That 
				sacrifice is what feeds regeneration.
				
				 
				
				In our very antiseptic 
				culture today, people don’t have a visceral understanding of 
				life and death.
				 
				
				
				
				Ostrander: What do you feel is your responsibility to the 
				animals that you raise on 
				
				Polyface Farm?
				
				Salatin: Our first responsibility is to try to figure out what 
				kind of a habitat allows them to fully express their 
				physiological distinctiveness. 
				
				
				 
				
				The cow doesn’t eat corn; she 
				doesn’t eat dead cows; she doesn’t eat cow manure, which is what 
				is currently being fed to cows in the industrial food system. We 
				feed cows grass, and that honors and respects the cow-ness of 
				the cow.
				
				Chickens - their beaks are not there for us to cut off, as 
				industrial operations do. Their beaks are there for them to 
				scratch and to hunt for insects. So we raise them out on 
				pasture, in protected enclosures, in a free environment, so they 
				can be birds.
				
				We look at nature and say, 
				
				
					
					“How do these animals live?”
					
				
				
				And we 
				imitate that template.
				
				We have the chickens follow the cows, the way birds follow 
				herbivores - the egret on the rhino’s nose. The chickens sanitize 
				behind the herbivores, scratch in the dung, eat out the 
				parasites, spread the dung into the pasture, and eat the insects 
				that the herbivores uncovered while grazing. 
				
				The pigs make compost from cow manure, which we mix with wood 
				chips. They love to do it, and they don’t need their oil 
				changed, they don’t need spare parts, and they’re fully allowed 
				to express their pig-ness. Then animals become team 
				players - partners in this great land-healing ministry.
				
				This is all extremely symbiotic and creates a totally different 
				relationship than when you’re simply trying to grow the fatter, 
				bigger, cheaper animal.
				
				But the animals also have an easier life than they would in 
				nature. Nature is not very philanthropic. I mean, every day the 
				gazelle wakes up and hopes she can outrun the lion, and every 
				day the lion wakes up and hopes she can outrun a gazelle. 
				
				
				 
				
				We 
				protect our animals from predators and weather. We give them 
				good food and care for them, and in return, they are more 
				prolific.
				 
				
				
				
				Ostrander: So honoring the pig-ness of the pig is about ecology 
				as much as ethics.
				
				Salatin: Honoring the pig-ness of the pig establishes a moral 
				and ethical framework on which we build respect for the Mary-ness 
				of Mary and the Tom-ness of Tom. It is how we respect and honor 
				the least of these that creates an ethical framework on which we 
				honor and respect the greatest of these.
				
				A culture like ours - that views plants and animals as inanimate 
				piles of protoplasmic structure to be manipulated however 
				cleverly we, in our hubris, can imagine - will soon view its 
				citizens and other cultures in the same kind of disrespectful 
				way.
				 
				
				
				
				Ostrander: You claim that the kind of agriculture that you do 
				could feed the world. How would that work?
				
				Salatin: Well, for example, take cows. If we do what I call 
				mob-stocking herbivorous solar conversion lignified carbon 
				sequestration fertilization, we could triple the number of 
				herbivores and the amount of carbon we’re storing in the soil.
				 
				
				
				
				Ostrander: What was that long phrase?
				
				Salatin: Mob-stocking herbivorous solar conversion lignified 
				carbon sequestration fertilization. 
				
				
				 
				
				The idea is you’re 
				mob-stocking: Herbivores in nature are always mobbed up for 
				predator protection. Now we don’t have predators, so we use an 
				electric fence to keep them mobbed up. So we’re not Luddites. 
				We’re using high-tech.
				
				We farm grass, and we harvest that grass with cows. But we don’t 
				just turn the cows out into a field. We move them every day from 
				paddock to paddock and only give them access to a single spot a 
				couple days a year. We let the grass grow to what we call full 
				physiological expression, the juvenile growth spurt. 
				
				
				 
				
				By doing 
				that we’re actually collecting a lot more solar energy and 
				metabolizing it into biomass than you would if the grass were 
				kept short like a lawn.
				
				The difference is, for example, Augusta County, where we are, 
				averages 80 cow/days per acre (a cow/day is what one cow will 
				eat in a day). On our farm we average 400 cow days per acre, and 
				we’ve never bought a bag of chemical fertilizer and we’ve never 
				planted a seed. We’ve taken the soils on our farm from 1.5 
				percent organic matter in the early 1960s to an average of 8 
				percent organic matter today. 
				
				
				 
				
				That cycle of herbivore, 
				perennial, and predation builds up root biomass below the ground 
				and sequesters carbon and organic matter. It’s the same process 
				that built all the deep soils of the world - the Pampas in 
				Argentina, outer Mongolia with yaks and sheep, the American 
				plains with the buffalo.
				
				Now, if you consider vegetables, we could do edible landscapes. 
				There are 35 million acres of lawn in the United States. I tell 
				people, we’ll know that we’re running out of food when the golf 
				courses around Phoenix start growing food instead of 
				petroleum-based grass to be irrigated with precious water. 
				
				
				 
				
				We’ll 
				know that we’re short of food when we can’t run the Kentucky 
				Derby anymore, because we need that land for farming. Go to 
				Mexico. They don’t mow the interstates. 
				
				
				 
				
				Every farmer along the 
				highway has a staked-out milk cow. 
				 
				
				
				
				Ostrander: Can you describe how you slaughter animals at 
				Polyface?
				
				Salatin: Well, the chickens, for example, are taken from the 
				field right into our open-air slaughter facility, and we don’t 
				electrocute them like the industry does. We do a kind of a 
				
				halal, 
				or a 
				
				kosher type of kill, which is just slitting the jugular, 
				and they gradually just faint or fade away.
				
				We have raised them. We have nurtured them and cared for them. 
				It’s different from the compartmentalization of the industrial 
				system, where we have people who have never seen the animal 
				alive doing the slaughter.
				
				And frankly, I believe it is psychologically inappropriate to 
				slaughter animals every single day. Even in the Bible, the 
				Levites drew straws; they ran shifts in the tabernacle where 
				they did animal sacrifices.
				 
				
				
				
				Ostrander: Is there a different emotional experience that people 
				have when they’re eating food raised on Polyface than if they’re 
				eating a McDonald’s hamburger?
				
				Salatin: We have a 24/7, open-door policy. Anyone is welcome to 
				come at any time to see anything, anywhere without an 
				appointment or a phone call. 
				
				
				 
				
				We encourage anyone to come and 
				walk the fields, pet the animals, bring their children, gather 
				the eggs out of the nest boxes - in other words, to build a 
				relationship and create a memory that can follow them all the 
				way to the dinner plate.
				
				Our culture has systematically alienated people from the 
				experience of dining.
				
				 
				
				I can’t believe how many kids come here 
				and watch a chicken lay an egg and then say, 
				
				
					
					“Oh, is that where 
				they come from?” 
				
				
				The amount of culinary and ecological real-life 
				ignorance in our culture is unbelievable.
				
				So what we want to do at Polyface is provide a platform, so that 
				anyone can come and partake of this marvelous theater that was 
				all a part of normal life 150 years ago. We want to create a 
				greater sense of all the mystery and appreciation for seasons 
				and for the proper plant-animal-human relationships.
				
				Some people even want to process some chickens with us. And that 
				is a very powerful memory to take to the table with you. If the 
				average person partook of the processing of an industrial 
				chicken, for example, they probably wouldn’t eat chicken.