"Long John" Nebel (WOR Radio, NY) with Otis Carr and Norman Colton

29 October, 1957


LJ ("Long John" Nebel): According to the schedule here the delivered price payable in full on delivery, with no prior commitments required, and including all poolings, and other overhead is 20 million dollars. Additional identical units are on the same schedule for 4 million dollars each. That's a lot of money! My name is Long John and we call this "the Party Line".

I imagine you wonder what I'm talking about for 20 million dollars. Well, I've had a few sponsors and we've sold a few things, but I don't have O.T.C. Enterprises Inc. of Baltimore, Maryland as sponsor but they do have something to sell. Mainly, a circular foil spacecraft that is available for 20 million dollars. We have talked about flying saucers on the program many times.


But tonight it appears to me we have two very solid citizens who represent O.T.C. Enterprises and according to all of the brochures, all of the booklets, everything we have in front of us and believe me we have a stack of things in front of us, including miniature working models, and with all of this material.


I'm led to believe these men and believe that there is something to flying saucers.

Oklahoma County attorney William Berry (left), Otis T. Carr (center), and Hubert Gibson, Carr's attorney (right)

And the men that I'm referring to are Otis. T. Carr, President and Norman Evans Colton, Director of Sales Engineering.


These gentlemen are associated with O.T.C. Enterprises, and we'll be talking with them tonight about the possibility of making a craft that can go to Venus, that can go to the Moon, that can go to Mars, that costs 20 million dollars. And after we have the first one the rest of them won't cost too much, about 4 million dollars each. We have with us this morning Ben I. and Mel Saloney. They will be doing a lot of talking with a lot of people and I hope that you might call some of your friends and neighbors and tell them that if they are interested in flying saucers, this is one night that they should be with us.

Mr. Carr, some time ago one of our listeners sent me a brochure that was published by O.T.C. Enterprises. It's a very beautiful brochure; it's certainly a very inspiring one, and when I read this offer about a spacecraft that would be made available for 20 million dollars, I nearly flipped and I mentioned it on the air, and evidently somebody contacted your Director of Sales Engineering, Mr. Colton and he contacted us and that's why you're here this morning.

Before we talk about the particular space craft that you intend to manufacture, I would like to ask you a couple of questions. One; Do you believe in the possibility of flying saucers coming to this planet, the planet Earth, from other planets?

OTC (Otis T. Carr): We believe that there are unidentified electrified objects in the air. We have seen three on three separate occasions.

LJ: Do you say you've seen three, Mr. Carr? Did you see them in the air? Were they hovering above a particular location?

OTC: In the air, they were going at great velocity and they were definitely electrified because we have been working on the same principle for many years and we recognize what we saw.

LJ: Well when you say electrified, what other type, if we may use the word saucers this morning because many of our listeners understand that, what other type of saucers could there be other than electrified, could there be gas driven or something, Sir?

OTC: There could be if we followed principles now known within our atmosphere. There are many manners in which a circular craft could be used, such as the helo principal and jets on the area close to the foil, the leading edge. But in the incidents of the three different ones which we saw in 1951 and 1952 they were definitely electrical and they were very close to what we had already designed.

LJ: Did you say the 'Helo' system?

OTC: That's right. Well any system of circular rotation that can use a motive power such as jet propulsion would make an airborne craft.

LJ: In what way is your invention different from the unidentified flying objects which you have seen?

OTC: We do not know, naturally not having been able to examine the objects we saw due to the great velocity, we can't say with certainty that they are similar to ours, but the principle we feel is the same. Our design utilizes gravity, electromagnetism, and electromotive force and a relative field to get its functional operation.

LJ: I haven't understood a single word of your last sentence. Without getting at all technical could you sort of make it a little bit easier?

OTC: We use this statement that we use an electrified sender. It's a central power core. Now this is what we call an 'accumulator.' In a vernacular sense, it is a factory. It is a storage cell, an accumulation of storage cells which provide an electromotive force in the same manner that any known battery produces an electromotive force.

LJ: Is that what you are holding in your hand there?

OTC: That's right.

LJ: Can you describe it?

Wayne Aho (left), and Otis T. Carr (second from left).
The two men on the right are unknown.


OTC: This is a dimensional object. It was designed with the dimensions of space itself. We say it is truly the geometric form of space, because it is completely round and completely square. Now in this surface they are all round but when we show it this way the surfaces are square. It has been proven in scientific laboratories that the very smallest unit of mass matter ever photographed in the electron microscope are square in shape. This has only been found out in the last couple of months.


We have known it for years and have applied this principle into an electrified system, which is the power core of our space vehicle. Now what makes this different and unique and novel from a battery is the fact that this is a piece of moving machinery that rotates. Our average storage battery is an inanimate object set in an inertial spot and then the electromotive force is conducted by wires from this battery to animate some object.

LJ: Let me interrupt a moment, I'll try to describe it further. Well, it looks like two ice cream cones put together at the wide ends, but the angle is a lot wider than that of the ice cream cones. There are a series of ridges that look like gears would fit in. Is that correct?

OTC: No, those are in a sense 'turbines principles'. They are 'reactive channels'. And where there is atmosphere a flow of air there aids rotation.

LJ: Well then, is this one of the components of the drive, this is the battery?

OTC: This is the central power core.

LJ: This generates electricity?

OTC: This is right. This is a storage cell for electrical energy. In operation it generates electricity at the same time it puts out electromotive force. This is the central power system for our space craft.

LJ: I can tell this, that it opened up and it appears to be hollowed out on the inside, much, I would say....well it's circular, the inside, when the two parts are put one on top of the other and they fit into place, the cavity inside is circular.

OTC: It is a sphere, yes. And each unit is a hemisphere. We call the center of this, this large dimension the equator and of course it contracts and expands to a point on each side. It's the union of two conical sections, that is what it is. Two right angle sections, and we say it is the dimensions of space and we have shown how this comes about.

LJ: This is Tuesday morning October 29th, 1957....Here is a paragraph that you sent copies of your brochure outlining your system of propulsion that you have developed to President Eisenhower and the Cabinet and the Atomic Energy Commission. Have you received an answer from them?

OTC: There was recognition of receiving the material.

LJ: Beyond that did they give any value judgment on what you had to contribute?

OTC: No, we have not received any value judgment.

LJ: Don't you think that is a little odd?

OTC: Yes, I do.

LJ: Is there any way that you can explain it?

OTC: I have my own ideas about this. Of course no way to substantiate such ideas. To give my own personal opinion, we have a truly safe vehicle which is not expendable, it does not burn up its energy in a few seconds, it carries the energy with it, it can leave the earth's atmosphere and return man, it also can be used within the atmosphere.


It can make a trip as easily as other aerial transportation systems from here to Baltimore or from here to the moon. Now it is inexpensive, it certainly doesn't cost as much as the systems of the expanding rocket. The fueling is much less expensive and whether or not our offer is entering into an economic picture that is not feasible at this time, we don't know.


This is one of our opinions.

Ben: Mr. Carr. I've been glancing at the literature that you provided us with. I've been going over it and there is a mathematical formula that crops up here that intrigues me, minus zero divided by plus zero equals zero. The first time I ever saw a minus zero is in a mathematical equation in the work of Einstein. I wonder if you can tell me more about it and how you stumbled upon this idea.

OTC: The equation is brought about by the shape of our Utron electrical accumulator, this is the name given to our central power system. In our operation of working models and in checking out experiments, we had to find the formula that fit the reason for the action and reaction we were getting. So in exploring nature and studying the great inspirational work of Dr. Einstein on relativity, we came upon this formula of linear correlation.


And when we study linear correlation in geometric form, we have to have a starting point and this is the point. And from there it expands through the cross and through the circle. And the mathematics, the only way we can express it, is in the symbolism of zero X (or 0x) and this formula brings us to that. We claim that this is the true unified field theory in physical practice.

Ben: The thing I wonder how you were led to the concept of a minus 0.

OTC: In a further study of Dr. Einstein's great inspirational work and we corresponded with him and we had the great good fortune of being advised by him at one time, we learned that all measurements of time and space had to be considered in relationship to the observer and therefore there never was a fixed equation, due to the observer being an attempt, as I understand it, the observer himself being somewhat the minus factor and therefore you can't have any fixed quantity of any number.


Now in physical form, this is something else again. We worked for a considerable time with and had many conferences with the great Nikola Tesla and his evaluation of the sine wave and electrical principles and the true value of alternating current and hydro-electric systems were developed by the great genius of this man.


Further inspirations came to us and finally from this knowledge and continuing to seek we found this formula.

Ben: Did you find this formula, Mr. Carr?

OTC: I found it with the assistance of Mr. Colton in the evaluation. Mr. Colton researches very heavily in all the work that I do and we collaborate very closely. Also Mr. Shea collaborates with me in research.

LJ: Mr. Carr, when was O.T.C. incorporated?

OTC: ...1955.

LJ: And how long prior to the year 1955 were you associated with Mr. Shea and Mr. Colton?

OTC: Not before that, they have come with me since then.

LJ: Were you interested in this before 1955?

OTC: We started, I use the editorial 'we', this development in 1937. Our investigations began in 1937. We were actively making models in 1938. In 1942 we had come up with the basic principles.

LJ: In other words, 18 years prior to this year you had in your mind that possibly some type of craft could be developed that you could go into space with? Is that right?

OTC: This is true.

LJ: Do you hope with this craft, if you are able to manufacture it, that you can go to other planets with it?

OTC: Escaping from the immediate gravity pull of the earth plus the heavy atmosphere of the earth enables us, just as our satellites are doing now, to join a universal free energy system. They have a velocity now of 18,000 miles per hour, more or less, without any expenditure of energy whatsoever.


Now any energy attached to this would immediately throw them into a higher velocity orbit which would expand them further into space...This is extremely easy to do. We feel that our craft will gradually escape and possibly escape the atmosphere of the earth and then we can handle velocities almost unimaginable in reaching other gravity systems and the moon should not be more than five hours away.

LJ: Five hours away from Baltimore, Maryland.

OTC: That's right.

LJ: How many people can you have in this craft?

OTC: The one we have on the design board which is 45 feet in diameter, the cabin would accommodate three to be comfortable.

LJ: And with type of equipment will you have on board of this craft?

OTC: On this craft, insofar as the individuals are concerned, can travel the same as in a pressurized airliner. We don't have the problem of a heat shield.

LJ: What about high velocity?

OTC: We don't have a problem of thermal barriers because the electro-magnetic system sets up a protective shield in our craft which enables us to overcome this barrier without any discomfort to the occupants inside the craft. And we can very slowly rise, and once we are outside the atmosphere, we can accelerate to tremendous velocities up to the speed of light itself.

LJ: I am greatly interested though in the method of landing this craft if you were able to get to the moon. Let's forget the moon a minute, if you get the craft up from this planet from the airport to Baltimore, how would it land sir?

OTC: Back in Baltimore?

LJ: Yes.

OTC: Very simply, we can fly at a very slow velocity of 100/ft. per minute or less and we can sit down as gently as a feather because part of the operation of our craft has joined universal systems. This is a relative velocity of the attractive inertial mass, it becomes weightless as regards this inertial attraction. Individually, it is not weightless, it has the same weight as before, but when it reaches the relative location it becomes an independent system just as a planet is an independent system.

LJ: Is there any gravitational pull at this point sir?

OTC: None whatsoever.

LJ: What happens to the occupants of the space craft?

OTC: They are perfectly comfortable.

LJ: I mean are their heads on the ceiling?

OTC: Not at all. They will have the same feeling of pressure or weight that they have right now because we will maintain as near as possible the atmospheric pressure of the earth at sea level inside the craft.

LJ: This is rather technical for me, Mr. Carr, so please accept my apologies for being rather stupid and ignorant in my line of questioning. I am under the impression that the only reason I'm able to sit in this chair, is because of gravitational pull.

OTC: We have this at around 14 pounds per square inch within our atmosphere. We have been able to be sealed off away from such a condition and thus artificially with atmospheric pressure the pressure in the cabin is maintained. We have it very well in submarines. The same may be used in our craft.

LJ: In other words, under sea, where a submarine may be, there is no gravitational pull, is that what you're saying?

OTC: There is a gravitational pull at all times but we're speaking about the atmosphere of the particular occupants inside a sealed unit.

LJ: Is that necessary to keep occupants in the position they desire.

OTC: Absolutely, because in a vacuum they are at the mercy of any velocity.

LJ: What would happen, sir, if there was some kind of instrument that you could turn on and eliminate the gravitation pull that was in this room?

OTC: You would in a sense become very buoyant and this is not in itself a novelty but it certainly does not have any disastrous effects on humanity.

LJ: Would I remain in this position?

OTC: You could, but any movement could move you out of it.

LJ: Would objects, the mike, remain in position?

OTC: Until they were brought into any other movement. Any movement would make them buoyant themselves.

LJ: I have a lead pencil, if I hold it in the air and release my fingers, it would fall because of gravitational pull.

OTC: This is true.

LJ: If we had this other condition which you so aptly described a moment ago, if I released my fingers would the pencil remain in midair?

OTC: This is true, it would stay there.

LJ: I believe what you are saying is that you'd be creating an artificial gravitational field within the body of the space craft and yet there would not be any gravity on the outside?

OTC: Exactly correct.

LJ: And this is done by the battery which I attempted to describe, spinning around and producing its own gravitational influence?

OTC: Yes, this is the beginning of an answer to your question: we have capacitor plates and electro-magnets as a part of this system.


Now this is counter-rotating, the electro-magnets rotate in one direction and the accumulator, the batteries rotate in another. The capacitor plates rotate in conjunction with the battery so that we have a clockwise and counter clockwise rotation. Now the third system is the cabin that maintains the crew. This does not rotate, it is fixed due to the fact the two bodies are rotating clockwise and counter clockwise.


Therefore the system causes the craft to escape from the gravity pull. The craft itself due to this system still has internal gravity because it still has the same weight that it had in the beginning.

LJ: What charges this battery?

OTC: This starts out electrochemically the same as other batteries, but we do have a regenerating system that is very unique. We are able here, the first time to our knowledge, to use atmospheric electricity as a recharging system. This is done as a part of operational principal of the craft.

LJ: You say you use atmospheric electricity. What happens when you use the atmospheric and there isn't any atmosphere?

OTC: We have electrochemical systems to provide us with all the energy that we need and have a regenerating system in the manner of a regenerative coil that recharges this battery, in the same manner that the storage battery in the automobile is recharged now, by a generator.

LJ: What you have done is made the first perpetual motion machine.

OTC: There is nothing perpetual about our machine. The energies which cause it to operate are perpetual. You cannot destroy matter, you cannot destroy energy. Molecular flow is perpetual and has been proven in the laboratory. It has been proven that electricity itself is immortal. When we take away resistance we can set up a spark of electricity and it will continue to operate, therefore we have perpetual energy.


No machine that we can conceive of made by man would be perpetual, but it is free energy. It's self energizing and as long as all parts function and do not wear out this is truly a self energizing machine.

Ben: About this formula, were you using conventional algebraic methods?

OTC: No, we weren't, partially conventional, but we were joining actual space forms. We arrived at satisfactory equations for ourselves which can be demonstrated.

Ben: Are the physical laws upon which your invention works, are they expressible in mathematical terms?

OTC: Possibly, but I wouldn't say that I'm qualified. We're satisfied with this formula.

Ben: Well, it's like saying plus 4 divided by minus 4 equals 4.

OTC: Sometimes these solutions are not always what they appear. As we know, in synergy, we know one plus one equals three.

Ben: One plus one equals three? How?

OTC: Because two conditions always produce a third.

Ben: The third condition is 2 isn't it?

OTC: Not necessarily...

Ben: Could you go over these conditions?

OTC: If one condition operates one way and another operates another way, and when they join you have another condition and their sum is 3.

Ben: Well that's a little bit over my head, I've been looking at this prototype you have here and I noticed a wooden frame or scaffolding, you have a larger model of.....that you have in it a turbine and around it is a wooden ring and it seems to be filled with electromagnets.

OTC: That's right, this is a wood model of the operational model. What we have here is the cones - our Utron electric accumulator - that is the power system. This system activates the electromagnets and in turn activates...

Ben: Does the system - the thing inside - activate the electro-magnets on the outside?

OTC: This is true. We do this by contacting this lead wire from the positive and negative poles of these batteries to the electro-magnets and then we have circuit breakers from these electro-magnets and we have counter-rotation. These electro-magnets will rotate counter clockwise while the internal area is rotating clockwise.

Ben: Are the spools of wire on the model itself, are they magnetized also?

OTC: The coils of wire inside the ring are regenerative coils, they are electro-motive force coils and they assist the regenerating of the battery. Because they are loops of wire brought through a magnetic field which sets up an electro-motive force. These others are capacitor plates and these are also activated by the central power core; but these plates, which can accept a very high charge in neutral conductance also through the process of ionization utilize atmospheric electricity.

Ben: I mean if you turn that thing... I don't see how you can get a square.

OTC: Dimensionally it is, it is square in these dimensions and when this rotation starts and builds up to a certain velocity, this form is very important because we have the total equation of action and reaction. Now this is done by a system of coil winding wherein we start at a point, expand to an equator, continue our winding down to a point.


With this physical expansion and contraction, is an electromagnetic field. Where gravity enters the picture in the form of this relative rotation. When the relative rotation reaches the inertial effective mass, it's a matter of dimension. So that if the earth as we say is 8,000 miles in diameter, we know its fixed rotation is 1 in 24 hrs. If we were 1 mile in diameter its rotation would be 8,000 in 24 hrs.


And by the same system, our 45 foot craft would have a rotation of 580 rpm and when it reaches this rotation it is totally independent of its inertial attractive mass, in an electro-magnetic field.

Ben: 580 rpm, that's not very fast is it?

OTC: Well, if you say a merry-go-round going 580 rpm that would be quite fast.

Ben: If your models get up to 580 rpm, will they take off?

OTC: This model was spun at 40,000 rpm and when it did it set a pressure pattern of 1,000 tons, the horsepower reading was a little over 700. Six engineers checked this out. Now the relative rotation of this model would be about 68,000 rpm and when it reaches this rotation, it would immediately take off.

LJ: Sam Vanderburt is the photographer who took pictures here this morning. They will appear in edition of Argosy Magazine dated April, 1958.

LJ: A question from a telegram - Would the time factor be involved with this craft?

OTC: In our solar system, the time factor would be involved, yes. We evaluate time on the velocity of light and in certain systems, if we exceed the velocity of light, unquestionably the time would slow up.

Ben: Your craft can exceed the velocity of light?

OTC: We don't say this, I say in other systems.

Ben: I thought nothing could do this, I thought it was a constant factor, one of Einstein's factors.

OTC: Possibly in our system, but not necessarily true in other systems.

Ben: Anything approaching the speed of light becomes pure energy.

OTC: Pure energy, but in other systems it could change.

Ben: What other systems?

OTC: Other solar systems, we are completely controlled by our system and here the velocity of light is our yardstick and our pattern and our craft is designed around this...

Ben: You just don't upset one of the basic principles of the universe.

Mel Salomey: Doesn't Einstein say any measurement is relative?

Ben: Except this one, it's the first axiom.

Mel: What is an axiom?

Ben: Self-evident truth.

Mel: Thank you. Wasn't Einstein theorizing, wasn't he assuming?

OTC: However we have to get back to what has been accomplished. We have invented an electrified system which makes it possible for a propulsion system which put into operation can carry human beings, with a fuel system which is not expendable and take them into space and bring them back and return in this craft. If I had the tools now, and those tools are available in large plants.


If those tools were available to me we could have this craft on the moon in six months from this date.

Q: Mr. Carr, on this sheet I have in front of me, the sheet headed, Performance Characteristics and Delivery Terms for the OTC-X1 circular foil space craft. I noticed the paragraph headed 'physical components.'


Safety under normal conditions would be anticipated in flight. It would be within 1,000 miles away from earth. Now maybe I am not reading this correctly. Sir, but as I read this you are saying that at the present time you feel that the OTC-X1 craft could go a distance of 1,000 miles away from earth and yet a few minutes ago you told us you could go to the moon in 5 hours.

OTC: That is true, the same craft, after all this is a contract form and we have not been to the moon. We are going to enjoy looking at the earth 1,000 miles out and I think that would be satisfactory if we make a safe return.

Q: From a thousand miles?

OTC: 1,000 miles was picked as an arbitrary figure for demonstration purposes only. Before we delivered the craft we would take the crew a distance of 1,000 miles.

Q: Before you delivered to the purchaser?

OTC: That's right.

Q: Then let me ask you Mr. Colton, how long would it take you to go 1,000 miles and return provided you don't hover around 1,000 miles away from the earth?

Colton: It could be done in a matter of minutes, probably because of the takeoff and landing practicalities, it could be done comfortably in the space of one hour.

Q: Comfortably?

Colton: So as to avoid awkward velocities and any discomforts.

Q: In other words the possibility of going to the moon in five hours is a dream at the moment, right?

Colton: No, I wouldn't say it's a dream...

Q: Well, if it takes you an hour to go 1,000 miles away from earth it should take you a little longer than 5 to go to the moon unless you've got an indirect route that will save a little time.

Colton: If you think of it in terms of a passenger train leaving a station and arriving at another station or an aircraft traveling between cities. This proportion and the amount of time it takes for takeoff and landing, the distance of approximately 50 miles in a heavy atmosphere would be traveled very slowly.


Once out of that atmosphere as Mr. Carr said almost any type of speed is possible up to and approaching the speed of light. You couldn't approach any such speed because you could reach 1,000 miles in the wink of an eye. That's why I say the figures are rounded off and arbitrarily selected for discussion and preparing the contract proposal.

Q: Mr. Colton, 20 million dollars sounds like a lot of money if you purchased an amount of jellybeans but it doesn't sound like a lot of money to me if you could produce the craft you propose. Do you have any idea in your mind why some big aeronautical concerns, Lockheed, etc.; I don't know all of them, why it is that they haven't taken advantage of this opportunity to invest. It's quite possible it wouldn't cost them 20 million dollars because they already have so much equipment available to them.

Colton: Up to the present time we haven't approached them directly with an offer.

Q: You were incorporated in 1955 and I imagine you have made an effort to get some money to promote your product.

Colton: An offer we made was that the OTC-X1 craft will be parked in any specified area in the Continental US and go one or more times outside the earth's atmosphere and land within a distance of the Pentagon building in Washington or any other location best suited for public observation.

Q: What are these coils? To describe this the best I can, imagine if you will a circle about 16-18 inches in diameter. Two circles that form a sort of other words 1 circle fits over another circle and from the top of the circle and coming down from off the circle are two cones, in other words one is up like a round pyramid, the other an inverted round pyramid.


There are a number of what appears to be copper wound coils around the edge of it. If you looked at it head on it would look like an old fashioned airplane engine more or less. And then there's sort of a framework on top and underneath there's sort of braces. That's the general idea, I noticed this, these cones placed mouth to mouth with some coils, the coils on the edge of this thing, it revolved within this structure.


A tough thing to describe.

Q: What is this over here, Mr. Colton?

Colton: This is a paper mockup to show the counter rotation principle and its outside circular section that Roy is describing looking at the other mockup. It contains the electrified horseshoe magnets. This would rotate in one direction counter clockwise while the center section with the electron accumulator would, which he described as 2 inverted cones mouth to mouth, would rotate clockwise in the other direction.

Q: Would these coils in the outer rim...?

Colton: Rotate counter clockwise, correct.

Q: What is the material in the actual space craft?

Colton: A number of materials would be used.

Q: Was the outer shell possibly aluminum, sir?

Colton: Possibly aluminum, possibly fiberglass. Certainly not any material or materials or products not known to use or easily available.

Q: When you say 580 rpm do you mean the outer rim is rotating in 1 direction 580 rpm and the inner rotating in the other direction at the same speed, giving a total rotation, one relative to the other of 1160 rpm?

Colton: Exactly, although I don't know if 1160 has any bearing on it or not.

Q: Well, it would be twice the rotation in reference to the earth.

Colton: We're not giving it for a certain rotation for the sake of rotation but for the sake of relativity to the attractive mass. The earth at 8,000 miles diameter rotating once in 24 hours is relatively equal to a 45 foot craft rotating at 580 and 580 would calculate to be the approximate rotational speed of an automobile tire on a car moving at about 25-30 miles per hour.

LJ: I'll try to describe a description as seen from the outside. I was attempting to describe the inside of the mechanism which is very difficult but I think I could describe it this way if I may. Imagine taking a couple of loud speaker cones and putting them mouth to mouth. Now that seems to be the body of the craft as you would see it in flight or well let's say landing. Now around it is an independent that the mouth to mouth speaker cones revolve inside the ring and on its axis.

Q: It looks like a flying saucer. It sort of reminds me of a gyroscope...

LJ: Have you described the basic principle of the thing?

Colton: Yes, Mr. Carr described the basic principle and the relationship of electricity and electro-magnetism.

LJ: Could a small craft be made to take off?

OTC: We plan to build a prototype model as a demonstration device. Now I would like to state certain models have been built by me and tested. Each one has been airborne. One was lost entirely in space. We had a control system and this one didn't function. This has already been done.

LJ: Years ago a man sold me two pieces of balsa wood, two cross pieces, and a rubber band. It would take off and go up very nicely and gently descend to the ground. It was not surprising to me that a thing like this is quite feasible. As a matter of fact he had a fantastic flying platform. He said it would one day be a way of flying instead of a prop in the front.


OK now, how does it differ from this particular flying saucer? That's what it really is, in principle, in motivation. The flying platforms I believe are a combination of a propeller and a jet. Thus directing motion downwards. This does not have anything to do with this system?

Q: None whatsoever. As we calculated, the speed of the circumference was 1263 miles per hour. It gets kind of warm at that, doesn't it?

OTC: No, it won't because it has its own protection field which is its electro-magnetic actuation. We described it as a self contained unit the same as an orange. It contains its juice within its skin and maintains its own circulatory system, like mammals and animals, etc. This ionization of the capacitor plates sets up a glow brilliantly with a very soft luminescent light.

LJ: What color?

OTC: It would be in the nature of the blue green or very similar to the electric arc you see in welding. This is the field we are testing, you do not have a heat barrier in forward velocity at all. This electro-magnetic field is being tested out now in conventional aircraft and proved very efficient. We have known that there is something a long time in our particular operation. We found out by actual physical tests.

LJ: Have you patented this?

OTC: We have patent applications in preparation and on file.

LJ: I personally am very reluctant to try to argue with you about this device because it looks like a very definite look into the future. Do you think that there are flying saucers from other planets?

OTC: These are electrified unidentified flying objects. We have seen these as mentioned earlier on this program and we were interested inasmuch as we were already building models and tested them out by the time we had these observations. Now, it is not up to me to conjecture whether or not they are from other planets, but the evidence is so because we certainly would not have to spend 355 million dollars to build a rocket if we had such a system, which we propose to make possible. We have the system ourselves. If the system is in operation already, something is very wrong to put this money expense on an expendable rocket. 55 million dollars is no cost at all to test out a rocket that only gets a few feet off the ground.

Q: Well, what do you think about the principle of rockets under certain conditions? Would you suppose you could put rockets toward the edges of the cones and have the ring spin by rocket propulsion?

OTC: We don't need it. We have a tremendous spin here. An electric motor operates the same way. You set up an electromotive force inside a magnetic field and you get rotation. So what we actually have here is an improved electrical motor which in itself is a circular device, and we say we make energy out of the air, from another dimension.

To clear your analogy up also, we would like to demonstrate the fact that this earth itself is literally a space craft demonstrating what we're talking about; it's rotating and orbiting at a certain constant speed with a magnetic field and it is in itself a spacecraft.

Q: Mr. Colton, we assume the moon has a gravitational field. How does it make a gravitational field and yet it does not rotate on its axis.

Colton: It does not rotate on its axis?

Q: No, the moon does not rotate on its axis.

Ben: Sure it does, 1 rotation for 1 revolution.

Q: How long does it take?

Ben: 28 days.

Q: And the earth takes one day.

OTC: And that's how engineers and scientists have evaluated the velocity of the craft we call the earth by the orbit of it. Upon the pattern already set up, by the amount of time it takes the moon to rotate once around the earth from the center of the earth's core: 28 days. The distance being 245,000 miles. It is easy to calculate.

Q: These cones seem to revolve over intricately wound copper coils. Do you supply any motor power to this?

OTC: All energy comes from these two cones [Utron]. This in vernacular is a battery. The big novelty is that we have put a battery in motion. We have designed it within the accepted knowledge of total dimensions of space-matter and we have activated it electrochemically [electrolyte in the hollow center] and used the force through chemical activation to activate the entire craft, after which we have motion as the feature of this accumulator.

Ben: Mr. Osgood's telegram brought up a very important and perhaps crucial point, mainly, James Clerk Maxwell demonstrated that light is an electromagnetic radiation, also verified by Hertz who laid the foundation for modern radio. Now the speed of electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves also travels 186,000 miles per second. In other words, light and all forms of electromagnetic radiation travel at the speed of 186,000 miles per second.


Now if it were possible for your craft to travel faster than the speed of light, it could, therefore, travel faster than the speed of electromagnetic radiation. So once it exceeded 186,000 miles per second, you wouldn't be gaining all this energy from this electromagnetic radiation you're generating and wouldn't you fall rapidly down?

OTC: There is a continuous falling in space which in itself can bring velocity and can bring you to another system. We mentioned conjecturally that in other systems, there could be different velocities. We're not applying them to our craft. We don't identify them with our craft. Relatively, we could not go faster than the speed of light unless we were in a system that permitted it.


In our solar system, which we have mentioned now three times, it is designed on known principles. We conjectured about other systems. If we go beyond the speed of light in other systems the conditions within that system would make it possible for us to have power.

Roy: Let's assume, Mr. Carr, this vehicle is at rest. What is it that originally overcomes the inertia of this rotor and starts the rotor moving?

OTC: The electromagnetic force stored in the energy of the Utron electric-accumulator, which in vernacular is a battery.

Roy: Now the Utron electric accumulator is these cones that are inverted to each other with bases together. I know of zinc batteries, nickel-cadmium, lead-acid cells. Could you use those?

OTC: We could use any of the kinds you mentioned; what we have here is tremendous power size in comparison to other batteries; therefore, it's very easy to put 1,000 2-volt cells inside this one unit as you see it. It has functioned very well. In our 45-foot craft we plant to have 12,000-volt batteries which will extend an electromotive force which will energize the electromagnets and the capacitor plates.


The generative coils will put back into the batteries in this system the same amount of volts going out until there is a breakdown of electro-chemicals or wear-out of equipment. But it could last as long as average storage batteries in automobiles.

Roy: In order to start the motor off originally, is it necessary to cause a flow of electricity through one set of the coils?

OTC: That's true.

Roy: Is there any magnetic force in the other set of coils at this point?

OTC: They individually operate by circuit breakers and the first motion begins to start a repetition. The same we have in a motor that has the opposite of a commutator, which is an accumulation of contact points where each coil is energized as the current flows through this coil. Then this starts the motion, the repetition of this motion brings the whole motor into phase in the same sense our accumulator and magnets become speeded up and the circuits are made and broken as they rotate.

Roy: Where the inner rotor rotates in one direction and the outer in the other direction. and if the cabin is located on top of the rotating mechanism, what keeps it from rotating in one direction or the other?

OTC: We have this cabin as the center of the craft and the battery below the cabin and the electromagnets are the total outside of the circular foil. The shaft of the accumulator goes through the cabin and there is a bearing. Now, just as this stays stationary when this is rotated, so will the cabin because there are two rotating forces.


You have the clockwise rotation of the accumulator, the capacitor plates, the generative coils, you have a counter-rotation of the entire circular area of the craft, the larger diameter which houses the electromagnets; therefore, when you have rotation in both directions, the cabin itself is like a bearing and extension of the shaft. We've built models and proved this is correct.

Roy: OTC X-I was accomplished?

OTC: Six crafts were airborne, one escaped; we used circuit breakers of various types and fuses burned through the switch and we lost one craft.

Roy: What was the size?

OTC: The largest and the one lost was 6 feet in diameter.

Roy: You also talk of the Caroto Gravity Motor and you mention it requires no fixed location in which to function, and you also say a lot of other wonderful things about the possibility for this motor. Is it something else than the spacecraft?

OTC: They are two separate packages. The spacecraft utilizes the electrical accumulator and the gravity motor uses the energy of the inertial attractive forces. We have learned how to take this energy and key it to a working shaft and get work power which we call free energy because it is. We don't make any part of it. Now in the rather vulgar vernacular sense this would have been classified as perpetual motion. It is nothing of the sort. It's free energy.


Now we have learned that all masses that are smaller than the masses to which they are attracted exert energy. Even this ashtray; if it takes a pound of energy to lift it, then it is exerting a pound of energy. We have a true gravity motor. Its functional operation is to produce power continuously without any dissipation of the energy which causes it to operate, and we have built models of this and they operate and function and we are in the patent procedure with this.

Mel: Back to a question a while ago regarding an analogy of the earth as a spacecraft. Taking another look at the mock up prototype power package there in front of you. It resembles the solar system itself, and as a matter of fact one of the statements in the brochure published in 1957, stated it illustrated the geometry of the universe.


It seems that this device miniaturizes and essentially duplicates the motion of bodies in the solar system. It must have the ability to miniaturize their energy. So in a sense, the bodies in the solar system, in all time, have maintained their constant motion perpetually in those motions and this is why people characterize this power package as a perpetual motion machine.

OTC: But we do not make any such claim.

Colton: The Utron has many applications, has many forms, many variation. In one sense you might describe it as an energized armature or in other words a motor with a self-contained moving battery, also capable of continuously re-energizing itself. The offer in regards to spacecraft applies to government and industry alike.


We will only make total disclosure demonstration after we have procured a firm order. In other words, we're not looking for anyone to evaluate our development. Mr. Carr has come a long way in his research. He doesn't need any risk money from taxpayers or industries for further exploration and development. We will disclose to anyone who is a purchaser, but not to anyone who comes along for curiosity.

Mel: What does the word "Utron" mean?

Colton: "Utron" is a coined word, a word Mr. Carr put together: the letter "U" and "tron", U meaning the direction or shape of motion as applied and used and equated in this accumulator or battery we described - U is the plane, the geometrical figure that is the portrait of the wave, you might say.


The letter U as described on paper, the two-dimensional, is a portrait on paper of the wave or the wave motion with the cut field, with the straight line, the pressure energy in the Utron accelerator.

OTC: To me there's no such thing as a completed curve; you only go half way, just like you only go half way into the woods, then you're coming out. This is the same. A bisection of a total sphere is its exact curve and one half of it is primarily U-shaped. Because in magnets there are always two poles and one normal way to show them is in a U-shape, but if it's in a bar magnet, there are still two poles and the shape is still the same.


We can only put a rope one half way around the tree and it's coming back the other way, and this is true in all wave motion. Now, if you extend this into velocity, this is the pattern in the sine wave and definitely the electromagnetic wave.

Ben: I see... the vortexian of the wave.

OTC: All motion is relative to all other motion, so this serpentine, spiral state.

Ben: So it's not the form of that motion, the graph and the equation. I'll accept the fact that it's the form of the Utron motion though.

OTC: Also the form as well in two dimensions is intensified in the geometry of our accumulator.

Q: Why do you refer to this vehicle as a 4th dimensional vehicle?

OTC: Because the geometry of the accumulator is such as the 4th dimension. To me the application of space and time, a vibratory field and electricity as we know it is a vibratory force in motion. This is symbolic of it and when it is activated it becomes such.


Now this may be a little bit difficult to understand, but nevertheless the very smallest electronic particles of matter have been shown under the highest type of electron microscope to be one-dimensional squares. To me this is verification that this is truly a space dimension because it is the shape of matter. Without matter you couldn't have space.

Q: I'm holding a thing that looks like two loudspeakers in a simplified form, placed mouth to mouth, two cones mouth to mouth, like two tops together so they have a point at each end and actually like a thickened flying saucer... Now what is it that comes from that: is it a high voltage?

OTC: The voltage is whatever we wish to make it by design.

Q: In other words, then, this is a battery?

OTC: That's right.

Q: The battery then goes through these magnets?

OTC: The battery rotates in this magnetic field. The average armature today in any electrical system is usually the permeability, iron wound with copper, then through a magnetic field acts as a motor, or it becomes a generator, depending upon the lead. The great novelty here in the area in which an armature is normally used, we have a [power unit, and this a battery, and this is a moving power unit.

Q: In other words, you might call this a self-contained power supply, right? How would this generator --- maybe I'm using the wrong word --- gather additional energy from outside?

OTC: This is due to its circular motion. Electrical forces are motions where they manifest. Now we have cycles in alternating current; AC gives you 60 cycles per second; we have discovered in our experiments that there is a space cycle related to electricity, and if we join the cycle we get energy from it.

Q: Mr. Colton, will you try to describe to our listeners how they can draw at home a facsimile of an Utron?

Colton: You can take a pencil and draw four lines to form an open square. When you have a square, draw a straight line from one point of the square to an opposite point and you'll have two right angle triangles. Now if you convert the line you've just drawn into a small lip you'll begin to see two inverted cones, the base of which form a circular equator. While you started with a square, you now have two cones.


Obviously, the base of the cone is a circle or completely round as we describe it, and you have the device which is described as completely round and completely square, the Utron electric accumulator. The cavity in the center of these which is a hemisphere when the two cones are put together have a hollow sphere. This is the cavity which contains the electrolyte which would be used in some of the applications of the accumulator.

Q: Of what value is the term "completely round and completely square" apart from its obvious redundancy?

Colton: It is Carr's definition of the geometry or the basic space form or the basic form of all matter large or small relatively as we describe it. It is the definition of the terminal motions of universal energies in what we call space.

Q: In one of your brochures you make mention of a "photon gun" and you say, "This is primarily a development that works outside of the earth's atmosphere. We are entering an age of space flight and the use of solar energy is practically unlimited"... What is a photon gun?

OTC: I am using the word "gun" as a reaction principle instead of as a weapon. Nevertheless, it is a gun and in fact fires billions of rays of solar energy at right angles to the reception. By placing them through a certain chamber, we have been able to get a reaction and whenever there is a reaction, we can get power, we can get force from it. So we feel outside the earth's atmosphere new systems of propulsion even beyond our own of electromagnetism will make themselves apparent.

The text of this interview was kindly shared by Mike Hughes of Anaheim, California, as reprinted in ENERGY UNLIMITED around 1983, and though very faded in many spots, was typed up by Jerry Decker from KeelyNet.


Decker's intention was for it to be copied at other sites on the net for the widest possible audience of interested parties.


Project Camelot supports and echoes that intention here.


Back to Contents