LJ ("Long John" Nebel): According to
the schedule here the delivered price payable in full on
delivery, with no prior commitments required, and including all poolings, and other overhead is 20 million dollars. Additional
identical units are on the same schedule for 4 million dollars
each. That's a lot of money! My name is Long John and we call
this "the Party Line".
I imagine you wonder what I'm talking about for 20 million
dollars. Well, I've had a few sponsors and we've sold a few
things, but I don't have O.T.C. Enterprises Inc. of Baltimore,
Maryland as sponsor but they do have something to sell. Mainly,
a circular foil spacecraft that is available for 20 million
dollars. We have talked about flying saucers on the program many
But tonight it appears to me we have two very solid
citizens who represent O.T.C. Enterprises and according to all
of the brochures, all of the booklets, everything we have in
front of us and believe me we have a stack of things in front of
us, including miniature working models, and with all of this
I'm led to believe these men and believe that there is
something to flying saucers.
Oklahoma County attorney William Berry (left), Otis T. Carr
(center), and Hubert Gibson, Carr's attorney (right)
And the men that I'm referring to are
Otis. T. Carr, President
and Norman Evans Colton, Director of Sales Engineering.
gentlemen are associated with O.T.C. Enterprises, and we'll be
talking with them tonight about the possibility of making a
craft that can go to Venus, that can go to the Moon, that can go
to Mars, that costs 20 million dollars. And after we have the
first one the rest of them won't cost too much, about 4 million
dollars each. We have with us this morning Ben I. and Mel
Saloney. They will be doing a lot of talking with a lot of
people and I hope that you might call some of your friends and
neighbors and tell them that if they are interested in flying
saucers, this is one night that they should be with us.
Mr. Carr, some time ago one of our listeners sent me a brochure
that was published by O.T.C. Enterprises. It's a very beautiful
brochure; it's certainly a very inspiring one, and when I read
this offer about a spacecraft that would be made available for
20 million dollars, I nearly flipped and I mentioned it on the
air, and evidently somebody contacted your Director of Sales
Engineering, Mr. Colton and he contacted us and that's why
you're here this morning.
Before we talk about the particular space craft that you intend
to manufacture, I would like to ask you a couple of questions.
One; Do you believe in the possibility of flying saucers coming
to this planet, the planet Earth, from other planets?
OTC (Otis T. Carr): We believe that there are unidentified
electrified objects in the air. We have seen three on three
LJ: Do you say you've seen three, Mr. Carr? Did you see them in
the air? Were they hovering above a particular location?
OTC: In the air, they were going at great velocity and they were
definitely electrified because we have been working on the same
principle for many years and we recognize what we saw.
LJ: Well when you say electrified, what other type, if we may
use the word saucers this morning because many of our listeners
understand that, what other type of saucers could there be other
than electrified, could there be gas driven or something, Sir?
OTC: There could be if we followed principles now known within
our atmosphere. There are many manners in which a circular craft
could be used, such as the helo principal and jets on the area
close to the foil, the leading edge. But in the incidents of the
three different ones which we saw in 1951 and 1952 they were
definitely electrical and they were very close to what we had
LJ: Did you say the 'Helo' system?
OTC: That's right. Well any system of circular rotation that can
use a motive power such as jet propulsion would make an airborne
LJ: In what way is your invention different from the
unidentified flying objects which you have seen?
OTC: We do not know, naturally not having been able to examine
the objects we saw due to the great velocity, we can't say with
certainty that they are similar to ours, but the principle we
feel is the same. Our design utilizes gravity, electromagnetism,
and electromotive force and a relative field to get its
LJ: I haven't understood a single word of your last sentence.
Without getting at all technical could you sort of make it a
little bit easier?
OTC: We use this statement that we use an electrified sender.
It's a central power core. Now this is what we call an
'accumulator.' In a vernacular sense, it is a factory. It is a
storage cell, an accumulation of storage cells which provide an
electromotive force in the same manner that any known battery
produces an electromotive force.
LJ: Is that what you are holding in your hand there?
OTC: That's right.
LJ: Can you describe it?
Wayne Aho (left), and Otis T. Carr (second from left).
The two men on the right are unknown.
OTC: This is a dimensional object. It was designed with the
dimensions of space itself. We say it is truly the geometric
form of space, because it is completely round and completely
square. Now in this surface they are all round but when we show
it this way the surfaces are square. It has been proven in
scientific laboratories that the very smallest unit of mass
matter ever photographed in the electron microscope are square
in shape. This has only been found out in the last couple of
We have known it for years and have applied this
principle into an electrified system, which is the power core of
our space vehicle. Now what makes this different and unique and
novel from a battery is the fact that this is a piece of moving
machinery that rotates. Our average storage battery is an
inanimate object set in an inertial spot and then the
electromotive force is conducted by wires from this battery to
animate some object.
LJ: Let me interrupt a moment, I'll try to describe it further.
Well, it looks like two ice cream cones put together at the wide
ends, but the angle is a lot wider than that of the ice cream
cones. There are a series of ridges that look like gears would
fit in. Is that correct?
OTC: No, those are in a sense 'turbines principles'. They are
'reactive channels'. And where there is atmosphere a flow of air
there aids rotation.
LJ: Well then, is this one of the components of the drive, this
is the battery?
OTC: This is the central power core.
LJ: This generates electricity?
OTC: This is right. This is a storage cell for electrical
energy. In operation it generates electricity at the same time
it puts out electromotive force. This is the central power
system for our space craft.
LJ: I can tell this, that it opened up and it appears to be
hollowed out on the inside, much, I would say....well it's
circular, the inside, when the two parts are put one on top of
the other and they fit into place, the cavity inside is
OTC: It is a sphere, yes. And each unit is a hemisphere. We call
the center of this, this large dimension the equator and of
course it contracts and expands to a point on each side. It's
the union of two conical sections, that is what it is. Two right
angle sections, and we say it is the dimensions of space and we
have shown how this comes about.
LJ: This is Tuesday morning October 29th, 1957....Here is a
paragraph that you sent copies of your brochure outlining your
system of propulsion that you have developed to President
Eisenhower and the Cabinet and the Atomic Energy Commission.
Have you received an answer from them?
OTC: There was recognition of receiving the material.
LJ: Beyond that did they give any value judgment on what you had
OTC: No, we have not received any value judgment.
LJ: Don't you think that is a little odd?
OTC: Yes, I do.
LJ: Is there any way that you can explain it?
OTC: I have my own ideas about this. Of course no way to
substantiate such ideas. To give my own personal opinion, we
have a truly safe vehicle which is not expendable, it does not
burn up its energy in a few seconds, it carries the energy with
it, it can leave the earth's atmosphere and return man, it also
can be used within the atmosphere.
It can make a trip as easily
as other aerial transportation systems from here to Baltimore or
from here to the moon. Now it is inexpensive, it certainly
doesn't cost as much as the systems of the expanding rocket. The
fueling is much less expensive and whether or not our offer is
entering into an economic picture that is not feasible at this
time, we don't know.
This is one of our opinions.
Ben: Mr. Carr. I've been glancing at the literature that you
provided us with. I've been going over it and there is a
mathematical formula that crops up here that intrigues me, minus
zero divided by plus zero equals zero. The first time I ever saw
a minus zero is in a mathematical equation in the work of
Einstein. I wonder if you can tell me more about it and how you
stumbled upon this idea.
OTC: The equation is brought about by the shape of our Utron
electrical accumulator, this is the name given to our central
power system. In our operation of working models and in checking
out experiments, we had to find the formula that fit the reason
for the action and reaction we were getting. So in exploring
nature and studying the great inspirational work of Dr. Einstein
on relativity, we came upon this formula of linear correlation.
And when we study linear correlation in geometric form, we have
to have a starting point and this is the point. And from there
it expands through the cross and through the circle. And the
mathematics, the only way we can express it, is in the symbolism
of zero X (or 0x) and this formula brings us to that. We claim
that this is the true unified field theory in physical practice.
Ben: The thing I wonder about....is how you were led to the
concept of a minus 0.
OTC: In a further study of Dr. Einstein's great inspirational
work and we corresponded with him and we had the great good
fortune of being advised by him at one time, we learned that all
measurements of time and space had to be considered in
relationship to the observer and therefore there never was a
fixed equation, due to the observer being an attempt, as I
understand it, the observer himself being somewhat the minus
factor and therefore you can't have any fixed quantity of any
Now in physical form, this is something else again. We
worked for a considerable time with and had many conferences
with the great
Nikola Tesla and his evaluation of the sine wave
and electrical principles and the true value of alternating
current and hydro-electric systems were developed by the great
genius of this man.
Further inspirations came to us and finally
from this knowledge and continuing to seek we found this
Ben: Did you find this formula, Mr. Carr?
OTC: I found it with the assistance of Mr. Colton in the
evaluation. Mr. Colton researches very heavily in all the work
that I do and we collaborate very closely. Also Mr. Shea
collaborates with me in research.
LJ: Mr. Carr, when was O.T.C. incorporated?
LJ: And how long prior to the year 1955 were you associated with
Mr. Shea and Mr. Colton?
OTC: Not before that, they have come with me since then.
LJ: Were you interested in this before 1955?
OTC: We started, I use the editorial 'we', this development in
1937. Our investigations began in 1937. We were actively making
models in 1938. In 1942 we had come up with the basic
LJ: In other words, 18 years prior to this year you had in your
mind that possibly some type of craft could be developed that
you could go into space with? Is that right?
OTC: This is true.
LJ: Do you hope with this craft, if you are able to manufacture
it, that you can go to other planets with it?
OTC: Escaping from the immediate gravity pull of the earth plus
the heavy atmosphere of the earth enables us, just as our
satellites are doing now, to join a universal free energy
system. They have a velocity now of 18,000 miles per hour, more
or less, without any expenditure of energy whatsoever.
energy attached to this would immediately throw them into a
higher velocity orbit which would expand them further into
space...This is extremely easy to do. We feel that our craft
will gradually escape and possibly escape the atmosphere of the
earth and then we can handle velocities almost unimaginable in
reaching other gravity systems and the moon should not be more
than five hours away.
LJ: Five hours away from Baltimore, Maryland.
OTC: That's right.
LJ: How many people can you have in this craft?
OTC: The one we have on the design board which is 45 feet in
diameter, the cabin would accommodate three to be comfortable.
LJ: And with type of equipment will you have on board of this
OTC: On this craft, insofar as the individuals are concerned,
can travel the same as in a pressurized airliner. We don't have
the problem of a heat shield.
LJ: What about high velocity?
OTC: We don't have a problem of thermal barriers because the
electro-magnetic system sets up a protective shield in our craft
which enables us to overcome this barrier without any discomfort
to the occupants inside the craft. And we can very slowly rise,
and once we are outside the atmosphere, we can accelerate to
tremendous velocities up to the speed of light itself.
LJ: I am greatly interested though in the method of landing this
craft if you were able to get to the moon. Let's forget the moon
a minute, if you get the craft up from this planet from the
airport to Baltimore, how would it land sir?
OTC: Back in Baltimore?
OTC: Very simply, we can fly at a very slow velocity of 100/ft.
per minute or less and we can sit down as gently as a feather
because part of the operation of our craft has joined universal
systems. This is a relative velocity of the attractive inertial
mass, it becomes weightless as regards this inertial attraction.
Individually, it is not weightless, it has the same weight as
before, but when it reaches the relative location it becomes an
independent system just as a planet is an independent system.
LJ: Is there any gravitational pull at this point sir?
OTC: None whatsoever.
LJ: What happens to the occupants of the space craft?
OTC: They are perfectly comfortable.
LJ: I mean are their heads on the ceiling?
OTC: Not at all. They will have the same feeling of pressure or
weight that they have right now because we will maintain as near
as possible the atmospheric pressure of the earth at sea level
inside the craft.
LJ: This is rather technical for me, Mr. Carr, so please accept
my apologies for being rather stupid and ignorant in my line of
questioning. I am under the impression that the only reason I'm
able to sit in this chair, is because of gravitational pull.
OTC: We have this at around 14 pounds per square inch within our
atmosphere. We have been able to be sealed off away from such a
condition and thus artificially with atmospheric pressure the
pressure in the cabin is maintained. We have it very well in
submarines. The same may be used in our craft.
LJ: In other words, under sea, where a submarine may be, there
is no gravitational pull, is that what you're saying?
OTC: There is a gravitational pull at all times but we're
speaking about the atmosphere of the particular occupants inside
a sealed unit.
LJ: Is that necessary to keep occupants in the position they
OTC: Absolutely, because in a vacuum they are at the mercy of
LJ: What would happen, sir, if there was some kind of instrument
that you could turn on and eliminate the gravitation pull that
was in this room?
OTC: You would in a sense become very buoyant and this is not in
itself a novelty but it certainly does not have any disastrous
effects on humanity.
LJ: Would I remain in this position?
OTC: You could, but any movement could move you out of it.
LJ: Would objects, the mike, remain in position?
OTC: Until they were brought into any other movement. Any
movement would make them buoyant themselves.
LJ: I have a lead pencil, if I hold it in the air and release my
fingers, it would fall because of gravitational pull.
OTC: This is true.
LJ: If we had this other condition which you so aptly described
a moment ago, if I released my fingers would the pencil remain
OTC: This is true, it would stay there.
LJ: I believe what you are saying is that you'd be creating an
artificial gravitational field within the body of the space
craft and yet there would not be any gravity on the outside?
OTC: Exactly correct.
LJ: And this is done by the battery which I attempted to
describe, spinning around and producing its own gravitational
OTC: Yes, this is the beginning of
an answer to your question: we have capacitor plates and
electro-magnets as a part of this system.
Now this is
counter-rotating, the electro-magnets rotate in one direction
and the accumulator, the batteries rotate in another. The
capacitor plates rotate in conjunction with the battery so that
we have a clockwise and counter clockwise rotation. Now the
third system is the cabin that maintains the crew. This does not
rotate, it is fixed due to the fact the two bodies are rotating
clockwise and counter clockwise.
Therefore the system causes the
craft to escape from the gravity pull. The craft itself due to
this system still has internal gravity because it still has the
same weight that it had in the beginning.
LJ: What charges this battery?
OTC: This starts out electrochemically the same as other
batteries, but we do have a regenerating system that is very
unique. We are able here, the first time to our knowledge, to
use atmospheric electricity as a recharging system. This is done
as a part of operational principal of the craft.
LJ: You say you use atmospheric electricity. What happens when
you use the atmospheric and there isn't any atmosphere?
OTC: We have electrochemical systems to provide us with all the
energy that we need and have a regenerating system in the manner
of a regenerative coil that recharges this battery, in the same
manner that the storage battery in the automobile is recharged
now, by a generator.
LJ: What you have done is made the first perpetual motion
OTC: There is nothing perpetual about our machine. The energies
which cause it to operate are perpetual. You cannot destroy
matter, you cannot destroy energy. Molecular flow is perpetual
and has been proven in the laboratory. It has been proven that
electricity itself is immortal. When we take away resistance we
can set up a spark of electricity and it will continue to
operate, therefore we have perpetual energy.
No machine that we
can conceive of made by man would be perpetual, but it is free
energy. It's self energizing and as long as all parts function
and do not wear out this is truly a self energizing machine.
Ben: About this formula, were you using conventional algebraic
OTC: No, we weren't, partially conventional, but we were joining
actual space forms. We arrived at satisfactory equations for
ourselves which can be demonstrated.
Ben: Are the physical laws upon which your invention works, are
they expressible in mathematical terms?
OTC: Possibly, but I wouldn't say that I'm qualified. We're
satisfied with this formula.
Ben: Well, it's like saying plus 4 divided by minus 4 equals 4.
OTC: Sometimes these solutions are not always what they appear.
As we know, in synergy, we know one plus one equals three.
Ben: One plus one equals three? How?
OTC: Because two conditions always produce a third.
Ben: The third condition is 2 isn't it?
OTC: Not necessarily...
Ben: Could you go over these conditions?
OTC: If one condition operates one way and another operates
another way, and when they join you have another condition and
their sum is 3.
Ben: Well that's a little bit over my head, I've been looking at
this prototype you have here and I noticed a wooden frame or
scaffolding, you have a larger model of.....that you have in it
a turbine and around it is a wooden ring and it seems to be
filled with electromagnets.
OTC: That's right, this is a wood model of the operational
model. What we have here is the cones - our Utron electric
accumulator - that is the power system. This system activates
the electromagnets and in turn activates...
Ben: Does the system - the thing inside - activate the
electro-magnets on the outside?
OTC: This is true. We do this by contacting this lead wire from
the positive and negative poles of these batteries to the
electro-magnets and then we have circuit breakers from these
electro-magnets and we have counter-rotation. These
electro-magnets will rotate counter clockwise while the internal
area is rotating clockwise.
Ben: Are the spools of wire on the model itself, are they
OTC: The coils of wire inside the ring are regenerative coils,
they are electro-motive force coils and they assist the
regenerating of the battery. Because they are loops of wire
brought through a magnetic field which sets up an electro-motive
force. These others are capacitor plates and these are also
activated by the central power core; but these plates, which can
accept a very high charge in neutral conductance also through
the process of ionization utilize atmospheric electricity.
Ben: I mean if you turn that thing... I don't see how you can
get a square.
OTC: Dimensionally it is, it is square in these dimensions and
when this rotation starts and builds up to a certain velocity,
this form is very important because we have the total equation
of action and reaction. Now this is done by a system of coil
winding wherein we start at a point, expand to an equator,
continue our winding down to a point.
With this physical
expansion and contraction, is an electromagnetic field. Where
gravity enters the picture in the form of this relative
rotation. When the relative rotation reaches the inertial
effective mass, it's a matter of dimension. So that if the earth
as we say is 8,000 miles in diameter, we know its fixed rotation
is 1 in 24 hrs. If we were 1 mile in diameter its rotation would
be 8,000 in 24 hrs.
And by the same system, our 45 foot craft
would have a rotation of 580 rpm and when it reaches
this rotation it is totally independent of its inertial
attractive mass, in an electro-magnetic field.
Ben: 580 rpm, that's not very fast is it?
OTC: Well, if you say a merry-go-round going 580 rpm
that would be quite fast.
Ben: If your models get up to 580 rpm, will they take
OTC: This model was spun at 40,000 rpm and when it did
it set a pressure pattern of 1,000 tons, the horsepower reading
was a little over 700. Six engineers checked this out. Now the
relative rotation of this model would be about 68,000 rpm and when it reaches this rotation, it would immediately
LJ: Sam Vanderburt is the photographer who took pictures here
this morning. They will appear in edition of Argosy Magazine
dated April, 1958.
LJ: A question from a telegram - Would the time factor be
involved with this craft?
OTC: In our solar system, the time factor would be involved,
yes. We evaluate time on the velocity of light and in certain
systems, if we exceed the velocity of light, unquestionably the
time would slow up.
Ben: Your craft can exceed the velocity of light?
OTC: We don't say this, I say in other systems.
Ben: I thought nothing could do this, I thought it was a
constant factor, one of Einstein's factors.
OTC: Possibly in our system, but not necessarily true in other
Ben: Anything approaching the speed of light becomes pure
OTC: Pure energy, but in other systems it could change.
Ben: What other systems?
OTC: Other solar systems, we are completely controlled by our
system and here the velocity of light is our yardstick and our
pattern and our craft is designed around this...
Ben: You just don't upset one of the basic principles of the
Mel Salomey: Doesn't Einstein say any measurement is relative?
Ben: Except this one, it's the first axiom.
Mel: What is an axiom?
Ben: Self-evident truth.
Mel: Thank you. Wasn't Einstein theorizing, wasn't he assuming?
OTC: However we have to get back to what has been accomplished.
We have invented an electrified system which makes it possible
for a propulsion system which put into operation can carry human
beings, with a fuel system which is not expendable and take them
into space and bring them back and return in this craft. If I
had the tools now, and those tools are available in large
If those tools were available to me we could have this
craft on the moon in six months from this date.
Q: Mr. Carr, on this sheet I have in front of me, the sheet
headed, Performance Characteristics and Delivery Terms for the
OTC-X1 circular foil space craft. I noticed the paragraph headed
Safety under normal conditions would be
anticipated in flight. It would be within 1,000 miles away from
earth. Now maybe I am not reading this correctly. Sir, but as I
read this you are saying that at the present time you feel that
the OTC-X1 craft could go a distance of 1,000 miles away from
earth and yet a few minutes ago you told us you could go to the
moon in 5 hours.
OTC: That is true, the same craft, after all this is a contract
form and we have not been to the moon. We are going to enjoy
looking at the earth 1,000 miles out and I think that would be
satisfactory if we make a safe return.
Q: From a thousand miles?
OTC: 1,000 miles was picked as an arbitrary figure for
demonstration purposes only. Before we delivered the craft we
would take the crew a distance of 1,000 miles.
Q: Before you delivered to the purchaser?
OTC: That's right.
Q: Then let me ask you Mr. Colton, how long would it take you to
go 1,000 miles and return provided you don't hover around 1,000
miles away from the earth?
Colton: It could be done in a matter of minutes, probably
because of the takeoff and landing practicalities, it could be
done comfortably in the space of one hour.
Colton: So as to avoid awkward velocities and any discomforts.
Q: In other words the possibility of going to the moon in five
hours is a dream at the moment, right?
Colton: No, I wouldn't say it's a dream...
Q: Well, if it takes you an hour to go 1,000 miles away from
earth it should take you a little longer than 5 to go to the
moon unless you've got an indirect route that will save a little
Colton: If you think of it in terms of a passenger train leaving
a station and arriving at another station or an aircraft
traveling between cities. This proportion and the amount of time
it takes for takeoff and landing, the distance of approximately
50 miles in a heavy atmosphere would be traveled very slowly.
Once out of that atmosphere as Mr. Carr said almost any type of
speed is possible up to and approaching the speed of light. You
couldn't approach any such speed because you could reach 1,000
miles in the wink of an eye. That's why I say the figures are
rounded off and arbitrarily selected for discussion and
preparing the contract proposal.
Q: Mr. Colton, 20 million dollars sounds like a lot of money if
you purchased an amount of jellybeans but it doesn't sound like
a lot of money to me if you could produce the craft you propose.
Do you have any idea in your mind why some big aeronautical
concerns, Lockheed, etc.; I don't know all of them, why it is
that they haven't taken advantage of this opportunity to invest.
It's quite possible it wouldn't cost them 20 million dollars
because they already have so much equipment available to them.
Colton: Up to the present time we haven't approached them
directly with an offer.
Q: You were incorporated in 1955 and I imagine you have made an
effort to get some money to promote your product.
Colton: An offer we made was that the OTC-X1 craft will be
parked in any specified area in the Continental US and go one or
more times outside the earth's atmosphere and land within a
distance of the Pentagon building in Washington or any other
location best suited for public observation.
Q: What are these coils? To describe this the best I can,
imagine if you will a circle about 16-18 inches in diameter. Two
circles that form a sort of a...in other words 1 circle fits
over another circle and from the top of the circle and coming
down from off the circle are two cones, in other words one is up
like a round pyramid, the other an inverted round pyramid.
are a number of what appears to be copper wound coils around the
edge of it. If you looked at it head on it would look like an
old fashioned airplane engine more or less. And then there's
sort of a framework on top and underneath there's sort of
braces. That's the general idea, I noticed this, these cones
placed mouth to mouth with some coils, the coils on the edge of
this thing, it revolved within this structure.
A tough thing to
Q: What is this over here, Mr. Colton?
Colton: This is a paper mockup to show the counter rotation
principle and its outside circular section that Roy is
describing looking at the other mockup. It contains the
electrified horseshoe magnets. This would rotate in one
direction counter clockwise while the center section with the
electron accumulator would, which he described as 2 inverted
cones mouth to mouth, would rotate clockwise in the other
Q: Would these coils in the outer rim...?
Colton: Rotate counter clockwise, correct.
Q: What is the material in the actual space craft?
Colton: A number of materials would be used.
Q: Was the outer shell possibly aluminum, sir?
Colton: Possibly aluminum, possibly fiberglass. Certainly not
any material or materials or products not known to use or easily
Q: When you say 580 rpm do you mean the outer rim is rotating
in 1 direction 580 rpm and the inner rotating in the other
direction at the same speed, giving a total rotation, one
relative to the other of 1160 rpm?
Colton: Exactly, although I don't know if 1160 has any bearing
on it or not.
Q: Well, it would be twice the rotation in reference to the
Colton: We're not giving it for a certain rotation for the sake
of rotation but for the sake of relativity to the attractive
mass. The earth at 8,000 miles diameter rotating once in 24
hours is relatively equal to a 45 foot craft rotating at 580 and
580 would calculate to be the approximate rotational speed of an
automobile tire on a car moving at about 25-30 miles per hour.
LJ: I'll try to describe a description as seen from the outside.
I was attempting to describe the inside of the mechanism which
is very difficult but I think I could describe it this way if I
may. Imagine taking a couple of loud speaker cones and putting
them mouth to mouth. Now that seems to be the body of the craft
as you would see it in flight or well let's say landing. Now
around it is an independent ring...so that the mouth to mouth
speaker cones revolve inside the ring and on its axis.
Q: It looks like a flying saucer. It sort of reminds me of a
LJ: Have you described the basic principle of the thing?
Colton: Yes, Mr. Carr described the basic principle and the
relationship of electricity and electro-magnetism.
LJ: Could a small craft be made to take off?
OTC: We plan to build a prototype model as a demonstration
device. Now I would like to state certain models have been built
by me and tested. Each one has been airborne. One was lost
entirely in space. We had a control system and this one didn't
function. This has already been done.
LJ: Years ago a man sold me two pieces of balsa wood, two cross
pieces, and a rubber band. It would take off and go up very
nicely and gently descend to the ground. It was not surprising
to me that a thing like this is quite feasible. As a matter of
fact he had a fantastic flying platform. He said it would one
day be a way of flying instead of a prop in the front.
how does it differ from this particular flying saucer? That's
what it really is, in principle, in motivation. The flying
platforms I believe are a combination of a propeller and a jet.
Thus directing motion downwards. This does not have anything to
do with this system?
Q: None whatsoever. As we calculated, the speed of the
circumference was 1263 miles per hour. It gets kind of warm at
that, doesn't it?
OTC: No, it won't because it has its own protection field which
is its electro-magnetic actuation. We described it as a self
contained unit the same as an orange. It contains its juice
within its skin and maintains its own circulatory system, like
mammals and animals, etc. This ionization of the capacitor
plates sets up a glow brilliantly with a very soft luminescent
LJ: What color?
OTC: It would be in the nature of the blue green or very similar
to the electric arc you see in welding. This is the field we are
testing, you do not have a heat barrier in forward velocity at
all. This electro-magnetic field is being tested out now in
conventional aircraft and proved very efficient. We have known
that there is something a long time in our particular operation.
We found out by actual physical tests.
LJ: Have you patented this?
OTC: We have patent applications in preparation and on file.
LJ: I personally am very reluctant to try to argue with you
about this device because it looks like a very definite look
into the future. Do you think that there are flying saucers from
OTC: These are electrified unidentified flying objects. We have
seen these as mentioned earlier on this program and we were
interested inasmuch as we were already building models and
tested them out by the time we had these observations. Now, it
is not up to me to conjecture whether or not they are from other
planets, but the evidence is so because we certainly would not
have to spend 355 million dollars to build a rocket if we had
such a system, which we propose to make possible. We have the
system ourselves. If the system is in operation already,
something is very wrong to put this money expense on an
expendable rocket. 55 million dollars is no cost at all to test
out a rocket that only gets a few feet off the ground.
Q: Well, what do you think about the principle of rockets under
certain conditions? Would you suppose you could put rockets
toward the edges of the cones and have the ring spin by rocket
OTC: We don't need it. We have a tremendous spin here. An
electric motor operates the same way. You set up an
electromotive force inside a magnetic field and you get
rotation. So what we actually have here is an improved
electrical motor which in itself is a circular device, and we
say we make energy out of the air, from another dimension.
To clear your analogy up also, we would like to demonstrate the
fact that this earth itself is literally a space craft
demonstrating what we're talking about; it's rotating and
orbiting at a certain constant speed with a magnetic field and
it is in itself a spacecraft.
Q: Mr. Colton, we assume the moon has a gravitational field. How
does it make a gravitational field and yet it does not rotate on
Colton: It does not rotate on its axis?
Q: No, the moon does not rotate on its axis.
Ben: Sure it does, 1 rotation for 1 revolution.
Q: How long does it take?
Ben: 28 days.
Q: And the earth takes one day.
OTC: And that's how engineers and scientists have evaluated the
velocity of the craft we call the earth by the orbit of it. Upon
the pattern already set up, by the amount of time it takes the
moon to rotate once around the earth from the center of the
earth's core: 28 days. The distance being 245,000 miles. It is
easy to calculate.
Q: These cones seem to revolve over intricately wound copper
coils. Do you supply any motor power to this?
OTC: All energy comes from these two cones [Utron]. This in
vernacular is a battery. The big novelty is that we have put a
battery in motion. We have designed it within the accepted
knowledge of total dimensions of space-matter and we have
activated it electrochemically [electrolyte in the hollow
center] and used the force through chemical activation to
activate the entire craft, after which we have motion as the
feature of this accumulator.
Ben: Mr. Osgood's telegram brought up a very important and
perhaps crucial point, mainly, James Clerk Maxwell demonstrated
that light is an electromagnetic radiation, also verified by
Hertz who laid the foundation for modern radio. Now the speed of
electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves also travels
186,000 miles per second. In other words, light and all forms of
electromagnetic radiation travel at the speed of 186,000 miles
Now if it were possible for your craft to travel
faster than the speed of light, it could, therefore, travel
faster than the speed of electromagnetic radiation. So once it
exceeded 186,000 miles per second, you wouldn't be gaining all
this energy from this electromagnetic radiation you're
generating and wouldn't you fall rapidly down?
OTC: There is a continuous falling in space which in itself can
bring velocity and can bring you to another system. We mentioned
conjecturally that in other systems, there could be different
velocities. We're not applying them to our craft. We don't
identify them with our craft. Relatively, we could not go faster
than the speed of light unless we were in a system that
In our solar system, which we have mentioned now
three times, it is designed on known principles. We conjectured
about other systems. If we go beyond the speed of light in other
systems the conditions within that system would make it possible
for us to have power.
Roy: Let's assume, Mr. Carr, this vehicle is at rest. What is it
that originally overcomes the inertia of this rotor and starts
the rotor moving?
OTC: The electromagnetic force stored in the energy of the
electric-accumulator, which in vernacular is a battery.
Roy: Now the Utron electric accumulator is these cones that are
inverted to each other with bases together. I know of zinc
batteries, nickel-cadmium, lead-acid cells. Could you use those?
OTC: We could use any of the kinds you mentioned; what we have
here is tremendous power size in comparison to other batteries;
therefore, it's very easy to put 1,000 2-volt cells inside this
one unit as you see it. It has functioned very well. In our
45-foot craft we plant to have 12,000-volt batteries which will
extend an electromotive force which will energize the
electromagnets and the capacitor plates.
The generative coils
will put back into the batteries in this system the same amount
of volts going out until there is a breakdown of
electro-chemicals or wear-out of equipment. But it could last as
long as average storage batteries in automobiles.
Roy: In order to start the motor off originally, is it necessary
to cause a flow of electricity through one set of the coils?
OTC: That's true.
Roy: Is there any magnetic force in the other set of coils at
OTC: They individually operate by circuit breakers and the first
motion begins to start a repetition. The same we have in a motor
that has the opposite of a commutator, which is an accumulation
of contact points where each coil is energized as the current
flows through this coil. Then this starts the motion, the
repetition of this motion brings the whole motor into phase in
the same sense our accumulator and magnets become speeded up and
the circuits are made and broken as they rotate.
Roy: Where the inner rotor rotates in one direction and the
outer in the other direction. and if the cabin is located on top
of the rotating mechanism, what keeps it from rotating in one
direction or the other?
OTC: We have this cabin as the center of the craft and the
battery below the cabin and the electromagnets are the total
outside of the circular foil. The shaft of the accumulator goes
through the cabin and there is a bearing. Now, just as this
stays stationary when this is rotated, so will the cabin because
there are two rotating forces.
You have the clockwise rotation
of the accumulator, the capacitor plates, the generative coils,
you have a counter-rotation of the entire circular area of the
craft, the larger diameter which houses the electromagnets;
therefore, when you have rotation in both directions, the cabin
itself is like a bearing and extension of the shaft. We've built
models and proved this is correct.
Roy: OTC X-I was accomplished?
OTC: Six crafts were airborne, one escaped; we used circuit
breakers of various types and fuses burned through the switch
and we lost one craft.
Roy: What was the size?
OTC: The largest and the one lost was 6 feet in diameter.
Roy: You also talk of the Caroto Gravity Motor and you mention
it requires no fixed location in which to function, and you also
say a lot of other wonderful things about the possibility for
this motor. Is it something else than the spacecraft?
OTC: They are two separate packages. The spacecraft utilizes the
electrical accumulator and the gravity motor uses the energy of
the inertial attractive forces. We have learned how to take this
energy and key it to a working shaft and get work power which we
call free energy because it is. We don't make any part of it.
Now in the rather vulgar vernacular sense this would have been
classified as perpetual motion. It is nothing of the sort. It's
Now we have learned that all masses that are
smaller than the masses to which they are attracted exert
energy. Even this ashtray; if it takes a pound of energy to lift
it, then it is exerting a pound of energy. We have a true
gravity motor. Its functional operation is to produce power
continuously without any dissipation of the energy which causes
it to operate, and we have built models of this and they operate
and function and we are in the patent procedure with this.
Mel: Back to a question a while ago regarding an analogy of the
earth as a spacecraft. Taking another look at the mock up
prototype power package there in front of you. It resembles the
solar system itself, and as a matter of fact one of the
statements in the brochure published in 1957, stated it
illustrated the geometry of the universe.
It seems that this
device miniaturizes and essentially duplicates the motion of
bodies in the solar system. It must have the ability to
miniaturize their energy. So in a sense, the bodies in the solar
system, in all time, have maintained their constant motion
perpetually in those motions and this is why people characterize
this power package as a perpetual motion machine.
OTC: But we do not make any such claim.
Colton: The Utron has many applications, has many forms, many
variation. In one sense you might describe it as an energized
armature or in other words a motor with a self-contained moving
battery, also capable of continuously re-energizing itself. The
offer in regards to spacecraft applies to government and
We will only make total disclosure demonstration
after we have procured a firm order. In other words, we're not
looking for anyone to evaluate our development. Mr. Carr has
come a long way in his research. He doesn't need any risk money
from taxpayers or industries for further exploration and
development. We will disclose to anyone who is a purchaser, but
not to anyone who comes along for curiosity.
Mel: What does the word "Utron" mean?
Colton: "Utron" is a coined word, a word Mr. Carr put together:
the letter "U" and "tron", U meaning the direction or shape of
motion as applied and used and equated in this accumulator or
battery we described - U is the plane, the geometrical figure
that is the portrait of the wave, you might say.
The letter U as
described on paper, the two-dimensional, is a portrait on paper
of the wave or the wave motion with the cut field, with the
straight line, the pressure energy in the Utron accelerator.
OTC: To me there's no such thing as a completed curve; you only
go half way, just like you only go half way into the woods, then
you're coming out. This is the same. A bisection of a total
sphere is its exact curve and one half of it is primarily
U-shaped. Because in magnets there are always two poles and one
normal way to show them is in a U-shape, but if it's in a bar
magnet, there are still two poles and the shape is still the
We can only put a rope one half way around the tree and
it's coming back the other way, and this is true in all wave
motion. Now, if you extend this into velocity, this is the
pattern in the sine wave and definitely the electromagnetic
Ben: I see... the vortexian of the wave.
OTC: All motion is relative to all other motion, so this
serpentine, spiral state.
Ben: So it's not the form of that motion, the graph and the
equation. I'll accept the fact that it's the form of the Utron
OTC: Also the form as well in two dimensions is intensified in
the geometry of our accumulator.
Q: Why do you refer to this vehicle as a 4th dimensional
OTC: Because the geometry of the accumulator is such as the 4th
dimension. To me the application of space and time, a vibratory
field and electricity as we know it is a vibratory force in
motion. This is symbolic of it and when it is activated it
Now this may be a little bit difficult to
understand, but nevertheless the very smallest electronic
particles of matter have been shown under the highest type of
electron microscope to be one-dimensional squares. To me this is
verification that this is truly a space dimension because it is
the shape of matter. Without matter you couldn't have space.
Q: I'm holding a thing that looks like two loudspeakers in a
simplified form, placed mouth to mouth, two cones mouth to
mouth, like two tops together so they have a point at each end
and actually like a thickened flying saucer... Now what is it
that comes from that: is it a high voltage?
OTC: The voltage is whatever we wish to make it by design.
Q: In other words, then, this is a battery?
OTC: That's right.
Q: The battery then goes through these magnets?
OTC: The battery rotates in this magnetic field. The average
armature today in any electrical system is usually the
permeability, iron wound with copper, then through a magnetic
field acts as a motor, or it becomes a generator, depending upon
the lead. The great novelty here in the area in which an
armature is normally used, we have a [power unit, and this a
battery, and this is a moving power unit.
Q: In other words, you might call this a self-contained power
supply, right? How would this generator --- maybe I'm using the
wrong word --- gather additional energy from outside?
OTC: This is due to its circular motion. Electrical forces are
motions where they manifest. Now we have cycles in alternating
current; AC gives you 60 cycles per second; we have discovered
in our experiments that there is a space cycle related to
electricity, and if we join the cycle we get energy from it.
Q: Mr. Colton, will you try to describe to our listeners how
they can draw at home a facsimile of an Utron?
Colton: You can take a pencil and draw four lines to form an
open square. When you have a square, draw a straight line from
one point of the square to an opposite point and you'll have two
right angle triangles. Now if you convert the line you've just
drawn into a small lip you'll begin to see two inverted cones,
the base of which form a circular equator. While you started
with a square, you now have two cones.
Obviously, the base of
the cone is a circle or completely round as we describe it, and
you have the device which is described as completely round and
completely square, the Utron electric accumulator. The cavity in
the center of these which is a hemisphere when the two cones are
put together have a hollow sphere. This is the cavity which
contains the electrolyte which would be used in some of the
applications of the accumulator.
Q: Of what value is the term "completely round and completely
square" apart from its obvious redundancy?
Colton: It is Carr's definition of the geometry or the basic
space form or the basic form of all matter large or small
relatively as we describe it. It is the definition of the
terminal motions of universal energies in what we call space.
Q: In one of your brochures you make mention of a "photon gun"
and you say, "This is primarily a development that works outside
of the earth's atmosphere. We are entering an age of space
flight and the use of solar energy is practically unlimited"...
What is a photon gun?
OTC: I am using the word "gun" as a reaction principle instead
of as a weapon. Nevertheless, it is a gun and in fact fires
billions of rays of solar energy at right angles to the
reception. By placing them through a certain chamber, we have
been able to get a reaction and whenever there is a reaction, we
can get power, we can get force from it. So we feel outside the
earth's atmosphere new systems of propulsion even beyond our own
of electromagnetism will make themselves apparent.