Start of interview
Kerry Cassidy: So we're here with Bill Holden. And he flew on
Air Force One with Kennedy.
Bill Holden: Yes.
K: And had conversations with him way back then about your...
well, about the visitation... in some close way. Is that right?
B: [pause] Somewhat. And I can go ahead and give you a better
description of what actually happened. I was stationed in the
Wiesbaden Air Force Base in Germany. And this was June of 1963
and President Kennedy was on his way to do the Ich bin ein
Berlinerspeech in Berlin.
And I had the pleasure of being one of the stewards on board,
and greeted him that morning.
And President Kennedy was one of
these gentlemen, that he knew everyone, and so when he came
onboard he knew who I was and he said,
“Good morning, Airman
Holden.” And I said, “Good morning, Mr. President.”
And that morning I had picked up a couple newspapers from the
local newspapers, English editions, and there had been two UFOs
spotted over the Autobahn and clear pictures, right on the front
page. And so I had them sitting on the table and I'd asked him
if he'd like some juice and coffee.
And he said,
“Juice would be
fine, thank you.”
And by that time he looked down at the paper and saw what was
And he looked up at me and said,
“Well, what do you
think?” And then I said, “What do you think, sir?”
And he looked
back at me and with that just phenomenal smile he said,
So I laughed about that and I said,
“Well, sir, I'm an old
southern boy from down in Georgia and my grandfather was a
Methodist preacher there. For us to believe that we are the only
intelligent beings in the world is unbelievable. So, yes, I
believe that there is such a thing as other human species as
well as UFOs.”
K: And what did he say?
B: He says,
“You're right, young man.”
And I just wish I knew
then what I know now to have been able to go ahead and ask the
president some of the questions that I have today.
K: Wonderful. So, did you have any other conversations with him
as time went on?
B: Not really. As you know, we unfortunately lost him in
November of 1963.
B: And the anniversary flight the following year, I was with his
brother, Robert, and the Ford family, his wife, and some of the... two of the children. And we went back and did the
anniversary flight to the Ich bin ein Berliner and the actually
went... We had Princess Lee Radziville onboard... and we had
the opportunity to actually go see the Radziville estate in
K: Uh huh. And did you talk to Robert Kennedy about that?
B: No, I did not.
K: OK. So that was basically, kind of, that experience. So did
you have... I don't know what a person on Air Force One would
have, in you position... Was that a Top Secret clearance or was
that any kind of clearance at all?
B: It was known as a Top Hat. It's above a Top Secret because
you may hear something in conversation onboard the aircraft and
whatever is said there, stays there.
B: And that's our responsibility.
K: OK. So the conversation between you and Kennedy... You were
kind of... You've spoken about it since at conferences and so
on. Was this, you know, a conscious decision of yours to come
out, and...? Or was it because of that experience, or was it
because of other experiences you had that made you come forward?
B: There were many other experiences that occurred as far as...
Three particular in my military career. One happened prior to
meeting with President Kennedy and that was in August of 1962.
And I was down in Zweibruken in Germany doing a swim meet down
there. And it's a Canadian air base there. And I had won my
event and I was guest of this Canadian Air Force pilot and his
family at his house.
And during the course of the evening he says,
“What are your
I said, “Well, I planned to ask your daughter
if she'd show me around Zweibruken and just kind of tour the
He says, “Well, I understand that you're a jet mechanic.”
I said, “Yes, I am.”
He said, “How would you like to go fly
And I said, “Hmmm. Go fly or go on a tour with your
I looked at her and said,
“I'm sorry. I want to go
K & B: [laughter]
B: So, we took off that next morning in one of the most
phenomenal aircraft that I have ever had the pleasure of being
in. And it was the F-104 Starfighter. And it was the fastest
known aircraft to man at that time.
K: Uh huh.
B: During the course of our flight that morning, at about 10
o'clock position, I saw this weird-shaped craft to my left.
“Bogey. Ten o'clock.” And “What is it?” He looked over
and says, “Don't know. Let's go find out.”
He hit the
afterburner, which just launches you at mach speed and we took
off to this. Now, here we are in the world's fastest aircraft
and this aircraft... this “aircraft”... disappeared on us, it
went away so fast.
K: Uh Huh.
B: Well, this was my actual true introduction to what cover-ups
and everything else is about, both in the military and in the
K: Uh Huh.
B: And politically. When we got back we were met by a Commander
and he said,
“Who are you?”
I identified myself. And he said,
“What you saw today you haven't seen and do not discuss with
K: Wow. OK.
B: And they put me in a car and took me back to the Captain's
house. The Captain came in, like about four hours later.
“Bill, whatever you do, do NOT say one word about this
experience. It will hurt me. It will hurt everything that I'm
about.” I said, “Sir, I won't say a word about this.”
haven't until, you know, after many, many, many years, and out
of the service in '77. And I first started speaking in 1995.
K: OK. So after that experience, did you know you had seen... I
don't know... a UFO? In other words, did you have any idea what
it was? Did you get a picture in your mind of what the craft
looked like? Did they tell you...
B: Oh... It was...
K: Was it a flying saucer?
B: It was indeed... And this was right over the Rhine River.
[shows drawing of saucer-shaped craft in sky above landscape]
K: So. Wow.
B: And we were like at about... Oh, I'm going to say at about
50,000 feet of altitude.
K: So there's no doubt about it. As far as the drawing's
concerned, that's a flying saucer, as we colloquials call it.
B: And in the front page of the newspaper on that morning in
June of '63, was this... was something similar type aircraft
[shows drawing of two saucer shaped craft with a bubble on top]
and this was where... the two that were seen over the Autobahn.
K: And this is in Germany.
B: Right. This is in Germany. This was outside of Wiesbaden,
between Wiesbaden and Frankfurt. On the Autobahn.
K: And they put this in the newspaper?
B: Front page.
K: Very interesting.
K: So the Germans at that point were not... I mean, I don't
know what the article said, but they were not really keeping
this a secret from the people at that point.
B:... That's the uniqueness about the Europeans, the Mexicans,
and other locations in the world.
K: Uh huh.
B: They have no problem in showing actual pictures of
UFOs and experiences and telling about experiences. And it's
front page. It's not page 96...
B:... in the last section.
K: Yeah. It's not completely forbidden, then. And it's not a
laughing matter necessarily, either.
K: Well that's... that's great. So, moving forward in time,
your next experience in the military. What would that be?
B: That would the summer of 1966, and I was stationed in
Colorado Springs at Peterson Field. [ADC Command Aircrew, SAMS
(Special Air Missions)]
B: And I was flying for the ADC [Air Defense Command] Commander
and I was also providing support for the Air Force Academy.
K: So when you say that you were “flying”... were you operating
the aircraft? Or were you...?
B: I wasn't a pilot. No.
K: You were...
B: I was a Loadmaster and it was Special Air Missions and flight
B: And so we took care of special missions that were either with
high ranking officials, international dignitaries, or special
missions that we were going on, such as this one. And we were
taken into... in fact I was taken in privately... into a room
and I met with an Air Force Lt. Colonel.
And at that point, he said,
“This is a voluntary mission.”
said, “Sir, I take every mission as a mission. You don't have to
ask me would I like to go. You tell me, I'll go.”
And so he went
ahead and he had me sign a document that was a 20-year
non-disclosure agreement, with full penalties, all the way up to
going to prison and losing all rights.
K: And this was in what year?
B: 1966. It was the summer of '66.
B: And what he indicated was that I was going to be flying back
to Andrews Air Force Base and I was going to be picking up high
ranking military officials and high ranking scientific
individuals. OK? So I agreed to everything and went ahead and
planned the mission, got all the food and everything that would
be required on the trip. Flew into Andrews Air Force Base. Spent
the night. The next morning we loaded up early. And there was
one Brigadier General. There were a couple of Colonels. And then
the rest of the entourage were high ranking civilian engineers
K: And did you know the names of these people?
B: No. No, I did not.
B:... just. It wasn't something...
K: Did you recognize them?
B: No, I did not.
B: From there we went to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in
Dayton, Ohio. We landed there and they went to what was called
“the blue hanger.” Now, a lot of people know what the blue
hanger is about. And it was where a lot of the
reverse-engineering was being done on UFOs that were found in
the late '40s that had crashed. There were...
K: Are you saying that you knew this at the time when... In
other words, when you were told that you were going to the blue
hanger, it was general knowledge among the people that you
worked with that that's what that was?
B: No, there was only a special few that knew what the blue
hanger was about.
K: But you knew at the time?
B: I did not.
B: I learned later.
K: I see.
B: So... It was really unique. So from there we flew to Colorado
Springs and where our base was and they went up to the Air Force
Academy. They went up to Cheyenne Mountain, which was NORAD
headquarters and where the Cheyenne Mountain complex and where
all the early warning system and headquarters as far as for
And then from there, we left and flew to White
Sands in New Mexico. And we landed and all of us were put on a
bus and to this day I still do not understand why we went along.
K: So normally you would stay with the aircraft.
B: We would have stayed with the aircraft and stayed on the
B: This has happened both times that we, as an entire entourage,
we were taken with the group. So anyway, we got on to a bus. The
bus was blacked out in the area that we were sitting in. And
basically this gentleman in - not in an Air Force uniform but in
a khaki colored - with a special emblem (and I can't remember
the emblem) on the left sleeve. And they were armed and they had
a clipboard and each one of us had to show our military ID. And
then we were checked off the list and then we were told to go
ahead and sit down.
We traveled probably for about 45 minutes to an hour and
then... I was right up front and off to the right front seat
there, so I could kind of see through to where the driver was
and through the window there. But as far as the... When we got
there, we were stopped and I could see, like walls of a
mountain, on the left side by the driver. And then a guard rail
which was down. And then this guy got on board with another
gentleman and walked through with a clipboard. And again all of
us had to show our ID.
From that point we were driven on in and we stopped at this...
There was a line shack out there. We got off the bus and the
entourage was escorted over to where there was a UFO on the
ground. There were, like, two Quonset huts and another building,
a runway, and we were inside a box canyon. And then... from
what I could see... We weren't able to get right up with the
entourage. The crew was held back. But basically what I was able
to see was that there were two UFOs, in one-piece flight suits.
They were probably about 5 feet tall, in coming to the other
people around them.
K: OK. You mean there was one UFO and there were two
B: ETs. Correct.
K: OK. And they were wearing one-piece suits?
B: One-piece suits, light aluminum colored.
B: OK? Their skin was a pale color and as what is typified or
called a Grayling is what they looked like.
B: The larger head, the large black eyes, small mouth,
small nose, and...
K: Is this what they would look like, or not?
[Bill picks up a brown sculpted head, a classic representation
B: Surprisingly very much so, but the nose is more protruding
here and the lips are fuller.
B: And then the other thing that (and there's an amazing story
behind this piece...), but as far as the back... it's is very
true to what the Graylings were like.
B: They have a musculature across the back like this. [runs
fingers over back head of the sculpture]
B: And the... but very thin lips across here [touching mouth of
sculpture]. Their arms... very thin and the hands were long and
thin. Now, I've been asked many times if there were four fingers
or five fingers and I have to be absolutely honest, I've never
known that. I never knew to look for that, didn't think about
K: OK. So are you still on the bus at this time, or are
B: No, we're outside.
K: OK. But you're back from the group...
B: We're back from the group.
K: But you can still see.
B: We could see. Yes.
K: OK. And was there any verbal introduction, or preamble to
what you saw?
B: Not at all. Where we were put on this was the fact that...
The way it went, we were not allowed to ever discuss the mission
with any of the participants, OK? And basically [shows sketch of
location, showing placement of buildings, craft, and people]
when the crew was around, there was no conversation going on
about what as going on at the site.
K: Were you shocked?
B:... [thoughtful pause, big smile] Excited. Not shocked.
K: Did any of the aliens exchange eye contact... what you would
consider to be eye contact with you?
B: No. Too far away.
K: Uh huh.
B: OK? But basically they were very, as I said, they were real
thin, and long arms, long hands, longer neck... thin, and their
heads were larger.
K: Uh huh. About how tall?
B: About five feet tall. OK?
B: But the thing that I saw was when they moved, they were very
B: Very graceful in their movement.
B: But that was... that was a very unique...
K: Did you sign a non-disclosure during that time? Was there
non-disclosure within a certain length of time?
B: Twenty years.
K: Oh, that was the 20-year one.
K: OK. So we're past that time. You got past that time and you
started speaking out. So this is another incident. Did anything
else happen during that time?
B: Yes. Now, in the fall I was brought back in and briefed again
by the same Lt. Colonel. And he said same drill, same scenario,
sign the form. I did. And anyway, ended up back in Andrews Air
Force Base and this time I'm expecting to see the same people
again. [shakes head No] Totally, totally different crew. There's
an Admiral. There's a Captain, which is the equivalent of full
Colonel in the Air Force. This was basically an all-Navy group
with, again, high ranking civilian engineers and scientists but
none of the same crew. Totally different.
B: But, here again, we flew to Wright-Patterson. Here again they
went to the blue hanger. We flew to Colorado Springs and they,
again, went up into Cheyenne Mountain.
And from there we went to
Los Angeles and took off the next morning and we flew to Hawaii,
landed at Hickham Air Force Base [Oahu] and we were told,
the airplane ready, we're leaving at midnight.”
So we got
everything ready, got some rest, back at the airplane, took off
at midnight. We flew for somewhere around 3 hours and 45
minutes, to maybe 4 hours.
And we were flying in a C118, or what is the equivalent of a
DC6. OK? A four-engine, propeller aircraft. And we landed.
“Guys, we're back in Hawaii.”
And they said, “What do you
mean?” and I said, “There is nowhere out there that we can go
fly for 3 hours, 45 minutes - 4 hours and land.”
impossible in this airplane. I said,
“Johnson Island is five and
a half hours. Guam is much more. So. No, we're back in Hawaii
So, sure enough, again (which I still do not understand) we were
all taken together. And we went out to... We had breakfast and
then we went out to the site that's right by the ocean on the
west side (because the sun was coming up behind us) and we're
looking to the west. And it's an observation deck and all of us
are standing there.
And a little after 7 in the morning, about this time, this craft
comes out of the water, from our left to our right, just goes
SHEWWW [makes sound of fast movement] just like this, and then
stops out there in front of us. Now, here again... double
elliptical saucer-shaped craft, but at the mid-beam on this
there's a light going back and forth, like this [indicates
left/right, back and forth movement] at the mid-beam on it.
B: OK? Pretty much equal, as far as in design, top and bottom.
Double elliptical. Now, it sits out there and then almost
instantaneously disappears. So everybody's excited about what
they're seeing and everything. And about this time somebody
yells, “It's back!” And it's now a little bit closer, about a
hundred yards out, maybe 100, 200 feet off the water, and it
then demonstrates... as far as going up and down, side to side,
cants left and right, and cants at an angle and goes right back
into the water. Now, when he goes into the water – and when he
came out of the water – there was no explosion or implosion as
it went back in. And...
K: So what was the size of this vehicle? Could you estimate?
B: Oh... I'm going to... Hundred yards out, I'm going to have to
guess that this craft was somewhere around (and I'm guessing),
I'm saying probably 50 to 60 feet overall length.
K: So it wasn't huge.
B: No. But what was amazing about this... I had the opportunity
later on to be able to meet the astronaut Gordon Cooper. And I
had asked him about it and he said,
“Bill, it's... when you
have electromagnetic propulsion there's a force field around it.
It's like that craft is inside a sandwich, so that when it comes
out of it and when it goes back in you're not going to see the
explosion or the implosion.”
So that was one of the explanations
I was trying to find out.
K: Now, was it your understanding that that was flown by
extraterrestrial beings? Or was that one of ours?
B: My understanding was that it was ETs, still, at the time.
Today... we have our own.
K: So it could have been one of ours.
B: I would say that it was probably a combination.
K: Oh really?
B: Yeah. In '66 it was all a matter of the evolvement that's
been coming along all the way through. Gordon Cooper talks about
the time that he was stationed out at Murdoc, which is now
Edwards Air Force Base. He was a Major at the time. And one
actually landed and his crew was out there filming, brake
testing and everything, with one of the craft. And they actually
caught this craft landing and the door opening and closing, and
then taking back off again.
K: So at this point you've seen... You know, you've had some
pretty amazing experiences, right?
K: And in a certain sense... You signed NDAs, but you didn't... Did you have what was it considered to be a Top Secret or
Beyond, or did this Top Hat clearance go across the board for
you at this time?
B: No. That was only during presidential, and any time... And
that's one of the things... When you're in presidential service
and someone says they're flying on Air Force One, that is any
aircraft that the president is actually flying on. It can be a
helicopter, or it can be the Spirit of America which is 2600
[Spirit of America 2600: a Boeing 707, President Kennedy's
Plane]... So, it's...
K: So, OK. So how, just briefly, could you explain to us... I
mean, you have to be highly, highly trusted, I imagine, to have
the job that you had. Is this not true?
B: It required a full EBI, Extensive Background Investigation,
to be on presidential air crew. It also required, as far as that
for Top Secret. Now, any of the missions that I flew after the
presidential, all the way through 1974, when I was stationed in
Panama, I had a Top Secret clearance.
K: OK. So, were you a member of a certain armed forces?
B: Air Force.
K: Air Force.
K: And what was your title, your professional title under those
B: I was a Loadmaster and Flight Steward, Special Air Missions.
K: That's what it's called...
K: That was your title.
K: And did you change rank during that time?
B: I did. I went from Airman 2nd Class up to Staff Sergeant, on
my last... as far as my last encounter.
K: OK. And... now, have you told us everything that happened to
you in the military? Or do you have another one?
B: We have one more.
K: One more. OK. Because what I would like to know, after you
tell me this, is whether or not you feel that you have ever been
called in for psych evaluation [Bill starts laughing] or have
been, you know, to your knowledge, mind-controlled or suddenly
have been told to go see the doctor on a periodic, you know,
K: Never. OK.
B: [shakes head No] Never.
K: OK. That's interesting.
B: In fact I had a clean bill of health when I left the Air
B: Summer of 1971, I'm stationed at Patrick Air Force Base, Coco
Beach, Florida. And I'm... I always love to go down to the
Indian River, and go fishing, and everything. So, it was a
Friday afternoon and I was going down, and putting my gear out
and everything. And threw my line out and just kind of stepped
back... And I'd like to preface this statement this way: I
don't smoke. I don't drink. Never done drugs. [K laughs] And I'm
the grandson of a Methodist preacher.
B: So I wasn't having my beer, I didn't have anything special as
far as to, you know, put me out, but I kind of leaned back
against the palm and the next thing I know, I'm on a pedestal
table. I'm inside a craft. I'm looking up at a domed ceiling. I
don't see any light fixtures. And I have three ETs to my
left-hand side, two short, one taller. And I'm guessing about
five feet tall and maybe three and a half to four feet tall. To
B: And the only marking in the room is up on the ceiling is this
brilliant, brilliant, bright blue placard with three gold stars
on it. OK? Now... Conversation, as far as that I'm going
through is all telepathic and basically (this has happened to me
Tell them to stop destroying Mother Earth. Tell them
to learn to love one another. And thirdly, to take their mental
and heart harmonics to a higher level.
And it's been the same
message to me both times.
K: OK. Were you afraid?
B: Surprisingly not. Surprisingly not.
K: Well you'd had more exposure before that encounter than most
B: Well, also, even the very first one, I wasn't afraid.
I was excited, as I have been with all of these. And...
K: So it didn't shock you and put you into any kind of,
you know, altered state or, you know, conundrum, about your
religious beliefs versus what you were seeing, and all that kind
of thing? [Bill shakes head No]. You didn't have that kind of,
sort of a break in your conscious mind...
B: Not at all. Not at all. And the thing that I found through
all of my experiences is that I've had a very open mind. I've
been one that has been willing to learn and to share these
experiences with others. Because when I started the speaking
tour it was “Let the Truth be Known.”
And that's how I feel
about it. It should be known. And the thing that I had out of
this experience was the fact that the... I found an implant in
my left arm [shows inside of left elbow] about right here.
K: Uh huh.
B: It's about... not quite an inch long and about 3/8 of an
B: You see where I'm pushing it up?
K: OK. So it's still there.
B: Yes. It's still there.
K: You never had it removed.
B: No. And the thing that... I've been asked,
“Why haven't you
had that taken out?”
I said, “I consider it a blessing that I
have had these opportunities to be able to experience the UFO
and the ET phenomena that I have seen. And in so doing, they
felt it important enough that whatever this device is, that it
is following me, OK? So maybe there is another time, another
place, that I may have another encounter.”
K: Uh huh.
B: And it's like the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind
and Richard Dreyfuss is there and you know all the experiences
that he goes through. You know all the disbelief and everything
that they talked about, but he says, “Let me go!” And that's
what I've always said, “Beam me up, Scotty.”
[B & K laughing]
K: Oh, OK. OK.
B: So, I definitely don't have a problem with that.
K: Wonderful. OK. So, you've had these experiences in the
military. Now, I'm assuming you've also had some civilian
experiences... just because of the way you're talking.
K: OK. But, at this point, you left the military. Voluntarily?
B: No quite. We have one more... that did not involve UFO and
ET phenomena. But, while I was stationed in Panama at Howard Air
Force Base in Southern Command, in the summer of 1973 we were
called in, we got a briefing that we were going to be taking a
civilian filming crew... Because one of the astronauts, as they
were returning, saw these
hieroglyphics on the plains in Peru.
K: Uh huh.
B: So they wanted somebody to go up there and actually film them... the Nazca Plain. And it's as the astronauts were returning
that they saw this and they of course called it in and talked
about it and in their debriefing they saw this. They saw this
and they explained about it and took pictures of it.
what they did was we went out with that crew and we had the
pleasure of actually walking the Nazca Plain, physically being
in the trench, 18 to 24 inches deep and seeing this phenomenal
[shows still black and white shot of monkey glyph from Nazca
Plain, then color shot of large-headed humanoid figure etched
into vertical landscape] creation that they had done.
also in this tour we were at
Machu Picchu, Cuzco. We saw
drawings on the walls of helmeted figures, craft, and stuff like
this, that were dated aeons ago.
K: And this was part of your military duty?
K: Sounds like, you know, that you couldn't pay to get a
B: [laughs] This was phenomenal.
B: Phenomenal. And then in Lima we were taken into this
building. It was maybe 5,000 - 7,500 square feet in size. And on
the floor, and on shelving and everything, were... There were
skeletons that were dated 20,000, 25,000 years ago. Now, you
asked about religious beliefs and everything else. This is where
you get into where the Bible, and we're talking about being
taught about the Bible, and 6,000 years is what that Bible talks
OK. It talks about before Christ and when Christ comes and the
2,000 years after to where we are today. The Greeks are the only
one that feel that there's another 1,000 years and it talks
about in Genesis, “in the beginning,” “and man created.... And
God created man,” and as far as Adam and Eve and all the
So basically this raised a lot of questions,
especially being raised as a grandson of a Methodist preacher
and down in south Georgia, and looking at things.
K: You bet.
B: So I turned around and I looked at it and I wasn't disturbed
by it. What I looked at was this... is that the Bible... and
if I take it phonetically, it's “Basic Instructions Before
Leaving Earth.” It tells us how to live, how to get along with
each other. It's a chronological history of our mankind, all the
way through to where we are today. That's what it's about. It's
how we're supposed to live. It's how we're supposed to love each
other and take care of one another. Not all the war and
everything else that's going on.
Now, so here I'm looking at remains that are dated older. What
have been found today now? We've found remains that are 80,000,
100,000 years old. We know about the dinosaurs being here
millions, billions of years ago. OK? So how does it say as far
as today, the Earth? OK? Many, many, many millions of years old.
We've only been here for “this” period of time [holds his hands
not very far apart]. All these other civilizations have been
here before us.
K: In this sense, were you putting together in your own mind,
with your own teachings that you got from, you know, your own
religious background and so on, with what you have been shown... and did you just create some sort of a bridge between them
that made sense to you. And then I am assuming that you did some
research since then... so that this all comes together in a
package. But at the time, were you given, you know, by the
military for example, any instructions, or any... Or in other
words, did they say... we were created by ETs, and so on and so
K: They didn't. They never, absolutely...
K: So when you showed.... When you were on these tours you were
with others, right?
K: And did you talk to these other people?
B: I talked within my own crew.
K: And what was the general consensus at that point? Were people
blown away? Were they like you and relatively OK about
everything? Was there a wide variance in reactions?
B: As anytime you get a group of people together, there's
different opinions. OK? But what I found was that I had a
spiritual feeling about it. I felt that there was a reason I
shared that experience, that I was exposed to that experience. I
still feel that today.
K: OK. But did you feel that the other people there were
reacting... In other words, were they buttoned down and careful
not to show too much reaction because they were part of the
group doing this sort of thing?
B: There was nothing that was... “Oh my god!” Nothing like
K: They weren't falling over themselves in shock...
B: No. No.
K: So they were on some level with you as being...
B: It was an experience... Here's what happened... In the
K: OK. So you were taken here, you were shown around on this
tour and nobody explained to you, “Hey, you're going to be going
on a tour that's going to change your life,” or anything like
B: No. In fact, we were never told... We were never told what
the mission was about. We were just told that the mission was
classified and as far as we had to sign the Non-disclosures.
K: Do you feel you were test subjects?
B: [broad smile] I don't know. I feel... Here's what I think. I
think that, back in the time... When was the first time that we
supposedly found out about
UFOs in the United States? When?
K: Well, OK.
1947. Roswell was the
B: Roswell was the notorious...
K: But they were here before that.
B: Oh, yes. OK. Now here's the thing that happened. What was
causing the crashes - because there was more than one. There
were many crashes in the Four Corners. And what had happened
was, up in the northwest corner of New Mexico, was a huge radar
dome that was put up.
And it was basically to protect the
southwest corridor and to be early warning. Well, what happened
was that every time that turned on, and as the UFOs flew through
it, they were all of a sudden thrown kittywampus and everything
and thrown out of control.
K: When was that built? Do you know?
B: That was built in probably the mid ‘40s... '44, '45...
probably after Pearl Harbor.
K: I see.
K: OK. Well I understand that it is said that radar took down
B: It did.
K: OK. Did you have any exposure to actual crash teams? Did you
go out on crash teams at all?
B: No. I was not, OK? In...
K: Did you share stories with other people in the military who
K: Have you talked to
Clifford Stone, for example?
B: Ah... probably at the conference, OK?
K: Not inside the military?
B: No. I was long gone out of the military before I ever spoke
one word. It was long past my 20 years.
K: OK. So tell us why you came forward.
B: Ah.... I felt that it was important that the world know that
UFOs and ETs are true. They are real.
K: So was there an incident...
B: You asked the question, though. I want to go back to it.
K: All right.
B: Because you asked, were we a test. OK?
K: Uh huh.
B: You know what I think? I think that I can look back on that
now, and the bases... Because I've always been trying to figure
out why were we taken along on both instances. And I think what
it was... Is the public ready to know about UFO and ET
phenomena? They wanted to see how we reacted.
K: Well, you reacted very well. Why haven't they come forward?
You know what I'm saying?
B: [sighs] Because that was one of the things that came out in
the 50s, OK? And that's why...
K: But this was after the 50s. This is after
Project Blue Book.
They're still testing. They're still trying to find out. You had
a great reaction. I don't know about your other, you know,
fellow crewmen, so to speak. Any ideas why, since then?
B: Can we hold that question?
B: Because if we can I want to walk you up to this... Because
in 1996 and 1997 I'll have your answer.
K: OK. So you're out of the military.
B: 1977. In 1978 I'm living in California and I'm up at
Lancaster and I'm invited to go out for a tailgate party and
we're going out to a place called Mars Hill which is out in the
Mojave Desert, which is close to Edwards Air Force Base. And
they said if you want to see crazy things at night you've got to
So we're all out here and we're having a barbecue and we're
watching things. And about this time we had been commenting on
some of the light formations and everything, the way the planes... the craft were flying around and we're saying that's nothing
that we made that can do that. And we're laughing about that.
And then all of a sudden this girl has just this beautiful real
long red hair and it is straight out, like one of these things
that you hold the electron thing over. It is straight up in the
air and she is pointing up and she is screaming bloody murder.
Going over the top of us is a craft that is the size of a
football field, rectangular in shape, moving at slow speed
toward Edwards Air Force Base, OK?
B: We bailed. We get out of there so fast it's not even funny,
K: Did you feel the electromagnetics on yourself?
B: Did not. But the next morning I got up and I go into shave
and I'm “Whoa!” I am like I have a big sunburn, anywhere there
was exposed on me was just like a sunburn.
K: So you were living Close Encounters of the Third Kind. And
you ARE Richard Dreyfuss.
B: What happened was that we of course told everybody, OK, and
so of course I went down to my doctor and everything and he says... And he checked as far as to make sure there wasn't any
radiation. There was no encounter as far as radiation goes. And
he said it looks like there's no skin damage, but where you were
exposed give it a week and see if goes away. And sure enough, a
week later everything is back to normal. But anywhere that was
exposed it was just better than burnt red.
K: OK. Did you have a sense that that was one of ours or
B: Definitely not ours.
K: Uh huh.
B: Mothership, OK? And... President Eisenhower, in 1953 or '54,
one of the two years, he's president-elect and he's out at... I
believe he was out in Palm Springs and he was getting ready to
play golf and all of a sudden he said,
“I've got a toothache. I
need to go see the dentist.”
Now, instead of going like about 30
miles over to Riverside and to the Air Force base there and
going to see the dentist there, he goes all the way to Edwards
Air Force Base.
Now, history says that this is where
he met the ETs and that an
agreement was signed between the US and the ETs.
And as far as
that a mothership was seen coming in, there were a number of
UFOs coming in, and that the base was literally shut down for 3
days. I have been able to find that the base was shut down for 3
days. I've been able to find in civilian records, newspaper
accounts, and everything else, as far as those facts were
B: I have never been able to find the base historian. I cannot
find out if he's living or dead. He disappeared. I can't find
him. Because there's a lot of information that's somewhere, OK?
B: Now, from that point was where a number of experimentations
took place and when you hear about the 10,000 cattle that were
massacred, OK? And nobody could explain how all these different
things happened to them, OK? Well, what happened was that it was
laser testing, and it was everything from being mounted on
helicopters, on jeeps, on trucks, on tanks and backpacks. And it
was the only way they could test it without testing it on human
beings. And that's what that was about.
When we get into where we were talking about reverse engineering
on the craft that was brought in from
the '47 crash at Roswell
and other locations, this is where we get into the transistors.
This is where we get into, ah... electromagnetic propulsion.
K: But for our purposes, you've now told us about a civilian
sighting that you had that were pretty outrageous.
K: Now, these people, were they friends of yours, were
they also in the military, were they ex-military...
B: No. This is local friends in the area.
K: And they were not military.
B: No, not at all.
K: You did not know them in the military.
K: OK. So at this point you're pretty much an old hand at this.
Right? I mean, for all intents and purposes, you've been around.
So now, have you had other experiences since then?
K: OK. [laughs] Do you want to tell us what those are?
B: OK. In the fall of 1991 I'm living in Silver Lakes in
Helendale, California. And I'm driving home. And it's in the
evening. It's a clear, clear night. And as far as there's no
clouds that I can see as far as, until I turn off going into
Silver Lakes off of old Route 66 between Victorville and
Barstow, about half way. As I'm turning in I see this one little
cloud across here [draws horizontally in air in front of him]
and I see these large, kind of orange-colored orbs, not coming
down from them, but going up into the clouds, OK? So I park and
I watch this.
K: Uh huh.
B: Now I'm trying to judge how big these orbs are. Because I'm
sitting in the car and I'm about a half a mile away from the
site, and it's about the size of my thumb at that point. So,
figure half a mile away the size of my thumb, how big is this
orb? It's pretty big.
B: So, anyway, I see that. Now, in...
K: So nothing happened.
B: Nothing happened. I just...
K: No missing time...
B: No missing time. I didn't go away. Just here it is. Now in
1993 I'm still living there and I'm leaving with my wife to go
into Victorville to go out for a night's entertainment and
everything. And I'm pulling out the project and all of a sudden
I see this huge bright light in the sky and I'm thinking, “Oh my
god, there's a plane exploded, or missile exploded,” and
everything, whatever. But there's a huge light.
And all of a
sudden... it doesn't go away... it starts pulsing,. This light
is going in and out like this [moves hands together and apart,
back and forth]. And then so I take off and go on the Helendale
Road, going out toward 395. And the thing is starting to move to
the west. And I'm speeding up to 100 miles an hour and it's
pulling away from me.
And so it starts going like his [moves
hand in zigzag through air] and it's getting faster and all of a
sudden it just goes SHWWWW [makes sound of quick acceleration]
just like that, and it's gone. Now...
K: Your wife saw this at the same time?
B: Right. Now, at that point I called the sheriff's department.
I called the FAA. I called Vandenberg, because Vandenberg is
where they had the missile shoots and stuff like that.
Vandenberg said there was no missile shoot. And it went on as
far... You know, I contacted everybody I could. And...
K: Did any of them say that they'd seen anything that had shown
up on radar? That sort of thing?
B: [shakes head No] No. But as far as... In the newspaper the
next day they talked about.
B: They talked about the bright lights and everything. So...
K: So at this point had you started going to conferences and
B: Interesting you should ask that. I had not even thought about
talking about this.
B: OK? Till 1995 I get invited to a classified conference. They
even change my name, give me tickets, different identification,
and I fly into northern California and I'm taken to a place
called the Alisal Ranch [Santa Ynez Valley, CA]. And it's a
conference that later you'll find out was put on by the
Rockefeller Foundation. Bob Dean was there.
B: Two KGB officers were there. There was a Russian pilot there,
astronaut. There was the Lt. Colonel that his father owned the
ranch in Roswell that found the stuff... that kept some of the
stuff and buried it. So that was brought out at the conference.
B: And when they brought out this one piece that had come off
the craft... It was like an I-beam, a miniature I-beam, very
lightweight [measures size with fingers about 2” apart], and it
had hieroglyphics on it.
And we're talking about it and I said,
“This looks familiar. There's something about this.”
enough, two of the characters matched the Phoenician Sanskrit.
K: OK. That's an interesting link.
B: That was... That was an interesting link that we
looked at there. Uh...
K: You didn't call up
Zecharia Sitchin or anything to tell him
what you'd seen, huh?
B: No, and in fact I don't know whether Zecharia was there or
not. We had one of our own astronauts there. We had two Naval
officers there. We had... Air Force officers there and a number
of industrialists. But this thing was treated so classified. I
thought that the president was going to be there. That's how
much this was talked about.
K: OK. Well, so were there any Congress people there?
B: I don't know.
K: So, why do you think you were invited to this classified
gathering? I mean, you'd already been in the know, you'd already
been in the military. What was the purpose?
B: I think somebody knew that I had had some of these
experiences... from the military.
B: Because I hadn't gone public.
K: Right. Had you talked on the phone about this?
K: What about surveillance? Do you think they had an eye on you... electronically?
B: Not till later.
K: OK. Computers. Were they around in '95? I know they were
B: No. I wasn't doing anything.
K: Nothing on computers.
K: What was your civilian job at that point?
B: I worked for myself.
B: I was a consultant. I was in real estate.
K: Uh huh.
B: But here's what was interesting. Is because in 1996 I went
out and with a couple of friends drove around the Skunkworks,
the Lockheed Skunkworks just outside of Helendale, two miles
B: And everybody talked about that...
“Oh it's just a radar
testing facility,” and like that. And I said, “No, it's not.”
There's something about this. And so I drove all the way around
it and then we went into this one area. And outside the fence I
found this rock [shows rock divided by straight line into brown
and black coloring] and a bunch of other rocks that had been
burnt with high temperatures. And you can see where this part
right here, OK, you can see how that was in the dirt. [turns
Now picture this being in the dirt. And that's
what as exposed and that's how much heat was on this rock. And
this was in the mud. So... And this is in a circle that's about
36 feet in diameter, OK? And I have a picture I can show you
where this little girl picking this rock up out of the mud, OK.
And then these are around it. And then there were alkali
deposits at six... six or eight different points in the circle
that were about this big around [holds arms out beyond body,
curving to demonstrate a circle], and that if you actually
stepped onto it, you would have gone down in it maybe about 18,
24, inches. It was like the ground was all broken loose right
And so that was found right there by the site.
K: Uh huh.
B: Now, what was interesting about this was that this picture
right here says: Trespass, Loitering forbidden by law.
Trespassers are subject to prosecution. Private Property. No
trespass. Lockheed Corporation. [shows picture of sign] Now,
this is all the way around the complex that these signs are
posted. Now we're driving around and this jeep pulls up there
and it's got the armed security officers on it telling us to get
out of there.
And I said,
“I'm on the civilian side and you're
on that side. You can't tell me what to do.”
So what was
interesting about this was this. [shows pictures of landscape
with antenna visible]. This is an antenna that's out there by
the runway. Now, I called it a runway. [shows picture of round
areas in ground] Now, this is the alkali that I'm talking about.
And these deposits were like six spots around the circle.
B: And as far as the hole that I was talking about. [shows
picture of area] Because I stepped into this and this is how I
knew that anywhere that kind of alkali are was that the ground
underneath it had been disturbed.
K: OK. You decided, somehow, some way, to come forward, OK?
B: Following... following the conference at the Alisal Ranch
was when I received a personal invite to go to Mesquite and talk
at the international conference, the UFO conference.
K: So, OK, but did you know someone there? Why did they know to
B: They were at the Alisal conference. And this
individual that puts on the conferences was...
B:... was there.
K:... was one of the people there.
B:... was one of the people there.
K: Very interesting.
[Bill Ryan, off screen]: Bob Brown.
B: Bob Brown. Yeah.
K: Wow. So Bob Brown is certainly in the know at this point.
B: Right. And so he had invited me to come to this conference.
That was my introduction to public speaking, and going out and
talking about UFO and ET phenomena, “Let the Truth be Known.”
K: OK. But did you at that point need convincing? Because Bob
Brown... You're at this ranch, you're talking to all these
people. You meet
Bob Dean. I assume you guys shared stories.
B: Oh, we knew each other from when we were stationed in Europe.
K: Oh really? Ah.
B: Because I was flying for General Gabriel Disoway and he was
working... He was the Command Sergeant Major for the Commander
K: OK. Well we just did an interview with him, so...
B: Oh, Bob is... how is he doing?
K: He's wonderful. He's a beautiful man.
B: Please tell him I said hello, because I've lost contact with
[Bill Ryan, off-screen]: Would you like us to provide you with
B: Oh, I would love to know how to get a hold of him again.
K: Have you had any kind of threats...?
B: One time only. I had come back from my, uh... talk in San
Diego and this was in 1996 I believe. It was either '96 or '97,
and I'm living in Victorville. It had to be '97 because I'm
living in Victorville. And, uh... this black Ford pulls up in
front. This guy about six feet two, all black, gets out of the
car, comes up to the door, and I open the door and he says,
Holden?” and I said, “Yes.”
And he said, “I highly suggest and
recommend that you change your public speaking subject.”
I said, “Do you have a warrant for my arrest, or a presidential
order, or something telling me that I can't speak publicly any
I said, “Sir, then I suggest you go back to your
car and tell whoever told you to come here to stay out of my
business unless they've changed the Constitution where it says I
have the freedom of speech and the liberty and the right to go
where I want to go and do what I want to do. OK?”
And he took a step toward me and at that time I pulled out
something from behind my back and I said,
“You have about 3
seconds to get to your car, and I'm serious.”
So he turned
around and I've never heard anything since then. But I have
openly... openly... spoken about this and will continue to do
so and anyone that would like to have me as a speaker, it's just
a matter of contacting me. You can post my email and phone
number and be able to do that.
K: OK. Well you're a brave man. Obviously they were not able to
intimidate you. Have you ever talked to other presidents besides
B: No. I mean, I served with President Kennedy, President
Johnson, President Nixon.
K: And neither Johnson, nor Nixon, you had no reason to
B: Never. Johnson was a horse's butt. And I was only with Nixon
on the preflight to his China trip and then that was it. And I
was out of the presidential.
K: OK. Do you tend to believe that Kennedy was murdered by...
B: I... I will put it this way. Our president of this United
States was murdered by our own people and for three specific
reasons that I believe. It was not Oswald. Oswald had nothing to
do with it. He was the patsy.
K: Right. And three reasons which were?
B: I'd rather hold that.
B: OK? I have an interview that I did with Colonel Gordon
Cooper, USAF, NASA astronaut back on October the 22nd of '96. We
had become very near, near friends. He was stationed, as an
astronaut down in Cocoa Beach and I was stationed at Patrick.
And my last mission was the Apollo 13 mission.
B: And I as working there, working with Special Air Missions,
and also special events whenever they were doing a launch, and
K: Wonderful. Well... So, he was a very interesting man.
B: Wonderful, wonderful man.
B: In 1997. This was November the 12th, of 1997. [holds up
newspaper showing an ET wearing a Scottish bonnet] If you'll
look up in the upper left-hand corner of the newspaper... And
this is the Evening Gazette. This is the number one newspaper in
the northwest of England. And this was talking about the
conference. Now anywhere else in the United States they would
never do a front page, even talk about UFOs, let alone give you
a full page article. [shows article]
K: So this is in England.
B: This was in England in November of 1997.
K: And you went to speak, I'm assuming, as part of a conference?
Or something else?
B: It was to speak in a number of locations. One was.... I
spoke in Manchester. I spoke in Lytham St. Anne's, Blackpool, at
Cardiff by the Sea in Wales, and then over in Dublin, Ireland.
K: OK. But why did they invite you?
B: Because they wanted the latest. At that time I was one of the
latest subjects talking about UFO and ET phenomena.
K: I see. OK.
K: So they've got a picture there of you and your... the
carving or mask, whatever you want to call this. [film zooms in
on Grey head sculpture]
B: OK. Now, the interesting story of our friend. This is
Al the Alien and I was at, of all things, the state fair in
Victorville and up on a shelf there were three of these heads.
Now, one thing was that, upon looking at this, I found it to be
rather unique that it was very close to what a true GrAyling
was. So that whoever had made this head knew what he was doing.
And what told me that was the fact that the musculature across
the back of the skull was very true, and...
K: OK but I'm going to interrupt you here because you
told us that you've seen Grays...
K:... on a few occasions.
K: But did you actually see the back of their head?
K: Or how do you know this?
K: Oh, you did.
B: Yes. And that's why I said that the thing that's wrong about
this was that the nose is too large. It was just a very small
protrusion. And the mouth...You don't have, really lips, but
just a straight line, almost a straight line across.
B: .. And everything. But this was very unique. And somewhere on
here, it may have worn off now. No. It says that this was done
by L. Carr (C-a-r-r) was who did this.
K: Uh huh.
B: So... very interesting.
K: Now do you feel like there is more to the story than
what you've told us here? In other words...
B: There's a lot more.
K: OK. And this is because you have personal experience with
other things that you haven't brought up here? Or because you've
B: Research. Research and talking to very knowledge people,
engineers that are... have been out, worked at
Area 51, people
who have worked in the tunnels...
Huge tunnel system in the
K: OK. And is this tunnel system set up, do you think, for
2012, or do you think that these are areas
where they simply have underground bases, that are doing reverse
engineering, housing various ETs...
B: I think all of the above.
K: This has been wonderful. You are a wonderful speaker. I
appreciate you coming here today to talk to Project Camelot.
B: My pleasure. Thank you.