Dane Tops [D]: I wanted to say
that I have hardly ever run into anyone who got involved with this
subject - or offshoots of this subject - after 1975, who didnít have
anything but a very bad opinion toward the Church of Scientology.
Personally, I believe that before I (quote) ďblew the whistleĒ the place
was already completely infiltrated by the Illuminati. Their intention
was to produce exactly that result (a very bad opinion) on the general
public. The Church was fully corrupted and made a mockery of what it was
intended to be and started out to be. Goal accomplished.
The reason it was infiltrated by
the Illuminati is because of the
control techniques that could be developed from the 1950 book that Ron
Hubbard published, and soon after because of the paranormal abilities
that Hubbardís techniques were producing. The Illuminati thought it
could not allow humanity to discover their true innate powers and
In the 50s, those abilities were virtually unheard of.
Today, there are
dozens of understandings in the general public that were not extant
then. I believe that Hubbardís discoveries and techniques filtered down
into literally hundreds of subjects from black ops (direct mind control
used for dark purposes) on to personal therapies, self help
organizations, new religions, cults and into general medical literature
now considered standard knowledge.
In the í40s Hubbard discovered and demonstrated that there is no memory
that cannot be recovered. That was startling and unbelievable. At that
time he developed techniques to have people recall memories that
occurred at birth AND from conception onwards. Memories were verified
for accuracy with, for instance, the doctor at birth. Or with the
parents for incidents that happened during the pregnancy. He developed
techniques that allowed anybody to recall anything in their history with
a little work.
Weíre not talking about imagination; weíre talking about
literally verified birth and womb memory: full conversations, and exact
Now, he did this work in the í40s, and he wrote about it in a book
Dianetics, a Modern Science of Mental Health in 1950. The book
was a best seller. Russia tried to contact and hire him and the reason
Russia wanted him was because they recognized that the techniques in
that book could be reversed so that they could develop psychic warfare
and mind control techniques.
The Russians realized that the out of body perceptions that Hubbard was
developing could be used to spy and collect information from remote
locations. The Russians saw that the power of the mind could be focused
remotely to influence the thoughts of others at a distance. Russia
started testing their children and developing the ones with the most
skills. The US followed.
After Camelot, I now realize that at that time - in the 50s - we had
recovered ET bodies in crashed disks. I now see the Russians and
the USA were interested in Hubbardís techniques not due to mutual
animosity, but because the governments were really scared about the ET
problem. If theyíd told Hubbard what was going on, he would have been
happy to help and would have done a lot better job of it than our
Hubbard already knew more about the ETs than the
governments did, because people were recovering memories of many various
races of ETs, of
interplanetary wars or prior earth histories of wars,
of intelligent robots, clones, cyborgs - you name it. But Russia wanted
to use Hubbardís material without TELLING him what was happening with
the influx of crashed disks and recovered ET bodies that escalated
immediately following the bombing of Hiroshima.
By the early 60s, Hubbard was teaching the general public openly about
his independent discovery that this universe was heavily populated with
intelligent life and various life forms and body types.
alien disks would have been SOP [Standard Operating Procedure] to him.
He could have really assisted the governments to do a lot better job of
it, rather than to screw up the entire theme of contact the way it has
been. He would not have been technically overwhelmed by the ETs. He
would have sent out ambassadors to access their intent, and these would
have been people who had accessed their own memories about the various
races populating the universe and who were getting re-acquainted with
Russian efforts to hire him were intense. He was presumed to be someone
who could be utilized to develop any number of psychic abilities,
warfare abilities and spying abilities. The US versus Russia cold war
was not real except to the lower level people. It was a distraction for
All this time,
UFOs were freely infiltrating US and Russian
airspace. The entire cold war was a front and actually the US and Russia
were united behind the scenes, at the top, in fighting and attempting to
ďcatch upĒ with the feared common unknown potential enemy, the ETs.
So the intent to procure him started in the 1950s after the book was
published. During the í50s Hubbardís provable discoveries about the
mind/body/spirit were unheard of. During that time the kinds of results
that were being standardly produced on people Ė my friend here amongst
them [Ed. note: present at the interview, anonymity requested],
who saw many of these things Ė were an enhancement of what in common
language is known as
psychic or paranormal ability.
Some people had levitated, some had seen through solid matter, and
others had gone outside of their body with full perception of where they
were. When the Russians failed to hire Hubbard, they broke in his home,
stole the material, and altered the techniques to begin the Russian mind
control programs with the USA doing the same later.
Instead of using his techniques to naturally develop psychic abilities
and to recall our past lives and in-between life memories as Hubbard
intended, the governments extracted from Hubbardís works what heíd
discovered that has been done down through time to control human
behavior through force.
So the modern subject of mind control and Manchurian Candidates and much
more was re-researched and developed to a fine art form. As best I know,
the techniques were largely ďinspiredĒ from Hubbardís material. I say
that because the techniques that have been used, such as the
Chair, are described in detail in Hubbardís work.
That sort of chair has
been used down through time and is in our memories from way back.
Thereís nothing new under the sun. Weíve all been around for a long
Hubbard recovered from many persons the same memories of how to control
the mind by force and hypnosis. He wanted to undo the effects on all of
us by training a world-wide army of people skilled in helping mankind to
recover their memory of having a veil put over their minds to the point
that we do not know our own past.
It was known by Hubbard and completely acknowledged by the í50s that we
were, or that each human was a spiritual entity, not a body, nor a mind;
that all of an individualís history was recorded in energy patterns in
their body cells, but also around their bodies, which he defined as the
He discovered anew that mankind goes forward
from life to life to life and memory record is taken forward with the
spirit entity or soul which is each personís complete self. That each
person IS a soul rather than HAS a soul was his new major definition of
what man IS. In the 50s, this description of the soul was not common.
One thing Hubbard did prove that was... wellÖ he went on a trip around
the world to test that his memory was accurate. He went to different
locations to verify that just by his recall the memory of locations he
had never been in this life was accurate.
Hubbard came out of an era where there were people called Spiritualists
who contacted the dead. There were a lot of sťances in the US: it had
become all the rage. There are newspaper accounts of someone in England
in the 1860s doing body levitation and flying out of one upper story
window and into another one [Ed note: this was
Daniel Dunglas Home].
Blavatsky, a researcher and author who had psychic abilities, actually
killed an animal 40 miles away; thatís documented and witnessed. So
Hubbard heard about all these things during the era he grew up in. He
wanted to find out how these abilities came about, and what the
explanation for it was and how come people were reported to do these
things. He wanted to understand it scientifically.
Hubbard researched healing techniques and discovered that trauma and
pain in our past really affects us negatively and that those effects can
be reversed and that they were the cause of all psychosomatic illness or
accidents in accident-prone people. His discoveries were phenomenal. The
techniques for a full and total recall of past-life memories came soon
Then, the research to develop psychic
abilities to the point that one could see through walls and access all
their prior knowledge; do any number of psychic phenomena; these were
the kinds of things that were being developed in the í50s and early 60s.
Ingo Swann was part of the same era. He was still there in the í70s when I was
involved, in Los Angeles, coming up through these levels.
Bill Ryan [B]: What do you mean by levels?
D: Well, in Scientology, they had grades you went through where
you progressed from ability to ability to ability, and so Ingo Swann was
going through those grades, those levels.
There was a magazine that was
put out by the Church of Scientology where people that went through
these levels would write things that they experienced. Almost every
month Ingo was in this magazine with what he had done next, alongside
others who were also getting these sorts of results.
People who would report their results, such as moving a car sideways to
avoid an auto accident, seeing through walls, going out of the body with
all the perception to see and hear, levitating themselves, making things
materialize, like that [snaps fingers], healing a chronic illness or a
personal relationship that seemed to have been permanently destroyed.
There were some extraordinary healing stories. Later he had to retract
any claims that the techniques could heal due to the AMA [American
Medical Association] and the psyches [psychiatrists], with whom he ended
up in a lifelong battle. At first he offered his discoveries to
psychiatry, until he realized that many psyches just wanted to drug
people, do lobotomies and use electric shock.
Then he organized his own black ops within his organization in order to
expose harmful psychiatric practices with so-called ďhealingĒ
techniques. His organization spied on the IRS and published records of
their crimes. He sent infiltrators from his Church into the IRS to spy.
They were quite successful.
Although the governments had not succeeded in hiring Hubbard, they did
hire Scientologists who had demonstrated paranormal abilities. They were
not hard to find because Scientology published articles about what
people were achieving.
Ingo was hired by the government. I mean, he went to work in a program
Stanford Research Institute with a number of other Scientologists
to study paranormal things. I remember reading an SRI report that they
were having Ingo heat up objects and measuring how hot he could make
them. And that was just the start of what he could do.
What Ingo was doing was not different from the things that a lot of us
were doing as a result of the training and what Hubbard named
processing, or auditing. Thatís what he called it. Hubbard often used
computer terms and terms that made it seem very mechanical. But really
what we were dealing with and what the discovery was that we were
dealing with was a spirit, a spiritual being, and thatís what we are; a
spiritual being Ė an immortal spiritual being with any number of godlike
Later Ingo became famous as the father of remote viewing, a watered-down
word for what he was actually able to do and which many of us were
doing, which wasnít ďremoteĒ viewing Ė but it was out of body: going out
of your body with perception, more perception sometimes than you had IN
These techniques can be used to keep developing control over
time and ultimately control over the dimension that youíre in. Yes.
B: Somebody I knew described it as more like knowing whatever you want
to know because you decide you want to know. Thatís actually what
Hubbard coined the word Scientology as Ė itís the study of knowing how
D: Yes, knowing how to know. Well, actually, he didnít coin the word.
You can find in the í30s in a German book ďScientologieĒ - spelled
differently - with the rudimentary version of what became the
Scientology Axioms [Ed. note: Scientologie, by Dr. A. Nordenholz, 1934].
Hubbard discovered many things on his own but he put together amazing
things, like... He ended up having to lie and say he was the sole
developer of it all, an unfortunate solution for a problem he was having
managing his organization. I knew the person who suggested that he lie
and how it came about that he did. He had started out acknowledging and
giving credit to many of his sources.
There was no turning back after he
lied about it.
Kerry Cassidy [K]: Somebody gave me that book. Scientologie.
D: You have it?
K: I have it, yes.
D: Iíd love to see that. Itís got the original version of a brilliant
work called The Axioms of Scientology. Brilliant work. Thereís another
work he has called The Factors, which I find even...
K: I have it.
D: Iíd love to see the book. I havenít seen it in years.
K: Itís here in my library.
B: Sure. Its ďknowing how to knowĒ. I was just making a comment that it
is about knowingness rather than acquiring...
Acquiring data is like a
lower harmonic of this sort of knowingness, that one can sort of
permeate anything in the universe at any time and actually extract that
information if oneís operating at sufficiently Ė weíre running into
problems of vocabulary here Ė at a sufficient level of consciousness,
one can acquire and download that information.
D: Right. Thatís true. Another way to do it is to re-access our own
memories. hatís another way to know. But, you know, to some degree you
can get almost anybody to do that. But, if one doesnít go through some
developed discipline, one canít master levels of energy and success with
mental and psychic discipline.
And so these discoveries were all
happening then in Scientology. It was terribly exciting. That was what
we worked on, these kinds of discoveries, at that time.
K: Okay. Can I just interject? Rather than a philosophical discussion,
it would be better if the point was made...
D: Itís not philosophical, because even in some of the Camelot
interviews... Who was the one that said: This is the greatest secret of
all, is the power you have and who you are and what you are. This is the
K: Well, Camelot is saying that. We are saying that.
D: There was a witness also who specifically said that to you.
Bob Dean was talking about that.
B: I think what youíre referring to here is what Bill Birnes described
Admiral George Hoover as saying: The greatest secret, actually, is the
enormous power that all human beings have.
D: Right. Now the trouble with Ron Hubbard was he discovered this
greatest secret within the realm of his studies and he discovered
techniques to develop enhanced abilities so that he, with his
techniques, was producing people who could go out of their body, go in
another room, look at anything they wanted, and report accurately what
He was producing people who could travel wherever they wanted
in the universe and report back on what theyíd seen, heat up an object Ė
like they made Ingo do when he went up to Stanford [laughs] Ė paranormal
and psychic... more than psychic... godlike abilities to manifest,
appear, disappear and KNOW things.
Ingo tells the story of how they gave him a job of going to the moon. He
called it remote viewing, but I assure you, Ingo WENT to the moon! And
thatís how the government found out that
there were ETs on the moon. And
very aware ETs, because Ingo quickly found out that the ETs who were on
the moon were able to sense that he was there, even though he went there
out of body.
These abilities were why the governments wanted to hire him, learn from
him, and develop means to train others to do the same. So Hubbardís
methods could enhance our native natural abilities and could be used for
spying operations and war. But as I said, the governments were dealing
with ETs and they didnít tell Hubbard that.
The Scientologists were
recovering memories of our past, loaded with all kinds of space scenes -
Hubbard called it ďspace operaĒ. Star Wars and Star Trek were really
popular with Scientologists as it was very real to us as our own past.
We didnít know there was contact in our own present-day, however, and
that our governments were going nuts trying to find a way to make our
technology AND our mental abilities catch up with the ETs. Developing
telepathy was an important part of it all and Hubbardís materials
offered great hope for the development of all these skills and more. And
thatís also why the governments wanted his research.
So, enhanced psychic abilities were being produced in Scientology and
Hubbard was busy describing the fact that we have such abilities
innately, and have been manipulated out of using them by mind control.
Russia stole his research and used it to start their psychic development
programs on their children.
We did that too, but they were ahead of us, because the Russian psychic
programs took Hubbard more seriously. Hubbard casually mentioned the
theft of his research materials during a lecture once.
But when Hubbard refused to play along, he became a target TO be feared
by the government. They didnít the public to recover these enhanced
abilities, only those children the put into the programs. In addition,
they began to recover
technology from the ETs about how to control the
minds and bodies of mankind.
Their choices about how to utilize all this new knowledge were poor as
they were too uninformed about our history in the universe. Thatís were
Hubbard could have been of far more use to them. So, he became a target
to be feared. The governments didnít want an army of Scientologists
capable of knowing what was going on for real.
So, Hubbard went on the run and ended up getting a fleet of ships and
escaping governments which were trying to stop Hubbard. He thought he
was targeted because he was using his organization to spy on the IRS and
the psychiatrists and exposing their crimes. Hubbard didnít fully know
the depth of why he was such a target.
They wanted to use his material to develop abilities like the ETs had -
but the governments did not want the general public to get those
And the movement was exploding like wildfire with centers
springing up world-wide to teach what Hubbard had learned and use his
techniques. So Hubbard lived on the ocean on a constant escape route,
trying to get away, directing research programs, developing the
techniques, and producing people who restored the innate abilities they
have as infinite spirits.
And his purpose was... well, he said that mankind was going to be
destroyed soon if there wasnít a massive change in human consciousness,
and he was trying to produce that change using these techniques before
it was too late. His goal was to wake us up from our amnesia.
Now, the Church of Scientology was destroyed from within by the US
secret government. Iím certain of this. And it was done by the use of
As time passed through the 70s, there were so many things about Hubbard
that indicated that he was tampered with that indicate that either he
was being cloned or he had extraordinary but deteriorating abilities, or
a combination of both.
For instance, there are reports of the different kinds of bodies that he
had, different wardrobes, fully different size wardrobes. And on the
ship, there were reports of somebody being downstairs being taught in a
room by him and upstairs, heís also upstairs working.
And that sometimes
he was one height and size and the next day he was a different size.
B: I think, if I remember right, it was Geoffrey Filbert who reported
that. Isnít that right?
D: Yes, I think so. He was one of the ones who wrote abut this.
K: Okay, now what I would like to ask is that youíre saying that ďbased
on information you were told.Ē In other words, why do you know what you
know? You might talk a little bit about who you were in the
Dís friend: I was in it from the beginning. Ronís character stayed the
same for many years. But in the late 70s it changed and underwent a full
turnaround. I donít know about cloning, but something happened to change
him, something heavy.
He had a heart attack in the 70s, and they had to go ashore in South
America to take him to a hospital. It made no sense, and was hidden from
the people in the Church. His personality underwent a drastic change.
Maybe a clone was substituted. In the last years, he was barely running
the Church at all and became interested in music.
It was as if he abandoned his organization and the urgency to save the
planet - but he was still alive. He seemed to go farther and farther
away from even having an interest in his mission, which had been
all-urgent, all-important, and a race against time to save the planet.
D: Well, okay. I didnít know
that cloning existed back then. Until
Camelot, I had no idea how developed human cloning is. But whatever
happened, he changed, and that was obvious. There are a lot of ways to
exert mind control. Maybe that was it. But what we know beyond a doubt
is that he was a target, and that he was affected, and that he went from
fearless to fearful; from brave to paranoid.
Getting back to the story, I knew lots of people that were high up in
the organization, including Hubbardís family. I knew people who worked
directly with him from way back. In the late 70s, Hubbardís family was
separated from him, so they couldnít see OR talk to him. His wife was
later put in jail, his children couldnít reach him, and he was isolated
in order to take him down.
But I was close to his children even after his wife, Mary Sue, was
jailed. And so I was able to observe the control and manipulation on his
family and hear the resulting upset, confusion and betrayal, because
they and everyone else who was cut off thought that Ron was choosing to
ignore them and talk with them or see them.
They couldnít conceive that their powerful father was an unknowing
victim of black ops. I knew about the bags of millions of cash dollars
that were couriered from one place to another. It took a lot of money to
keep from being captured by the government, a lot of money, and he just
used it as cash to escape and to fund his own reverse-spy operations
back on the government and to buy expensive property outright.
He put up a good fight, but he didnít know what he was up against and
how many resources would be used to take him down. They made a big
mistake not telling him about the ETs. We wouldnít have signed the
treaty with the wrong race of ETs if they had utilized his knowledge and
hired him directly.
He started out with a sterling intention to help mankind, but little by
little his organization was infiltrated, and massively infiltrated in
the end, so much so that I donít even know if the person who eventually
died WAS the body of the original Ron Hubbard.
I donít actually know, and donít have a way to know. But we do know
people that were near him very close to the end, and he was a far cry
from what he was in the beginning. Since studying all that I have now,
including Camelot, I know we have had
full cloning technology of humans
since the 60s from aliens, and how very much it is now being employed
for ďproblem leadersĒ.
They just get a new model whenever they are
unhappy with the old one.
K: What was your role in the organization?
D: Well, I had a job in the organization that I did. In my job I was
someone who heard a lot of things about stuff that was going on because
people would tell me things in confidence and because of that I learned
about things that were going on.
K: Youíre not answering the question because you donít want people to
know what your specific job was? Itís okay if you donít want to them to
D: One of my jobs in the organization was called auditor, which meant
someone that listened to someone else talking about their concerns and
B: Itís a kind of therapist.
D: And who keeps a confidence.
K: But not a traditional kind of auditor that... there are millions of
auditors. You were just one of them, or something special?
D: No, Hubbard called it that. It was a strange name as far as Iím
concerned. An auditor was someone that used his techniques to assist
people to get their memory and abilities back, the kind of abilities you
really have as a being Ė not only a human being, but as a spiritual
K: Okay, but there were many of those, right? And you were one of them,
D: I was one of them.
K: How many were there approximately? Do you know?
D: I donít know. Thousands, before the exodus. I really donít know.
K: Okay. What Iím trying to establish here is how you said you were ďup
highĒ or you had ďaccess to up highĒ in the organization. What Iím
trying to kind of get at for the people who are going to read this is:
How high were you in terms of your job? And then how high Ė you kind of
indicated your informal access was to family members. But how high were
you in terms of the formal structure?
Because you blew the whistle on an organization that you were a part of.
Right? You had a job in that organization on a certain level, so I was
just trying to figure out... Like if you were going to paint a picture
for people... if we were saying something like this on the government
and they were the Secretary of State that would be a title within that
organization. They had a title.
I donít know if you had a special title
besides a general title such as auditor.
D: It was a general title. I had a couple of general titles. I was near
the center of power, so to speak. When I discovered corruption, my
intention was not to expose their inter-organizational crime and blow a
whistle in order to destroy or hurt anything. My intention was to
Thatís why I wrote the letter - and if it couldnít be repaired, my
intention was to at least set people free from was becoming a kind of
tyranny. I wanted it to inspire the power to find who was behind it all
and create the ability to stand up against the structure that was
authoritarian and taking Hubbard and his organization down.
I didnít know then that it was the US
secret government destroying
Scientology from within, and thatís why it was so impossible to fight
it. We - Scientologists worldwide - were a strong group, united in a
worldwide mission that we all believed in, but we didnít have a bloody
clue where to look for the hidden third factor.
Well, the US black ops were the hidden third party. And indeed many
things that Hubbard predicted I saw come true - which was, if the
organization of Scientology broke up into splinters and didnít stay a
united group that could maintain the high quality and purity of the
delivery of the techniques, then Scientology couldnít and wouldnít
maintain its ability to produce a worldwide result.
And indeed it did not. Now thereís many, they call them splinter groups,
many that lost the core of the subject and its best features. But the
parent organization lost their values first, paving the way for a
The IRS and CIA and beyond now oversee the Church of Scientology... the
techniques have been watered down so that you donít find many many
people achieving the kinds of results that once existed.
The Church is no longer a threat, and Hubbard is a public laughing
stock, completely made to look like a criminal and charlatan - using the
very Scientologists who loved him to take him down. Theyíre totally
unaware that they were all victims of a massive campaign to take down
the Church of Scientology.
You donít find as many people in Scientology now that can go outside of
their body and travel at will anymore - or who even focus on that
achievement. You donít find people that can levitate or move their cars
sideways on the freeway in an emergency. There was a massive public
campaign to make less of such accomplishments and turn them into
unimportant ďtricksĒ, even in the New Age movement.
But at one time
there were real physical-universe results of accomplished enhanced
abilities like these. Thatís what the government didnít want: people
were finding out they did not have to be slaves of their bodies.
What it took to destroy Hubbard and Scientology was a concentrated
calculated operation that turned members against the Founder and against
each other. It was the old divide-and-conquer technique. The people of
this planet have no idea the degree of manipulation we are under. Our
minds are studied like rats in a maze and weíre all manipulated
Our support of our leaders, or our protest against our leaders, all
falls into line according to the plans of the controllers. The general
plan is to break all sovereignty completely and to allow the
continuation of an ignorant slave population. That ignorance was
threatened by Scientology and the benevolent ETs who came to warn us.
Only waking from our sleep can save us now.
Hubbard said this very clearly early on: This is a prison planet. Weíre
being imprisoned on the planet and our ignorance is the main tool of our
There were nuclear wars on earth a long time ago. Scientific
evidence came out that nuclear glass was being found every place on the
Earth and there have been other massive explosions on Earth long ago.
Thereís evidence now that there were other civilizations here. Many of
the current group on Earth is implanted and hypnotized here as
prisoners. The people or the souls, or the actual spirit beings we are
that are here are not here by accident.
Many canít get off the planet
because weíre held here in an electronic field of amnesia.
We canít wake ourselves up enough to gather the science to deal with
periodic cyclic Earth changes because weíre so mind-controlled and so
many of us live like Truman did in the Truman Show. Thereís a lot of
truth in that movie.
And I would say that the principal mind control techniques that were
extracted from Hubbard, and now used on people like
and others in the super-soldier program were originally developed using
the discoveries Hubbard made about how the mind works.
I bet wherever he is, he is one angry guy now to have found out what his
discoveries have been used for. Hubbard found similar things in the
memories of thousands of people, as they started to really recall their
past: he discovered that the way that these past-life and
in-between-life ďimplantsĒ are most effective is to use electricity.
Thatís when a being is delivered a great deal of electronic voltage,
along with commands to behave in a certain way or to limit themselves or
selectively enhance themselves in certain ways. People were recalling
independently that electrical and electronic techniques have been used
to implant the free soul out of body for literally millions of years.
It messes with the auric and mental circuits, you could say. Electricity
is confused by the being with his own similarly powerful energy. These
implants confuse and destroy memory and the personís own power of energy
production is destroyed or limited.
Behavior is controlled. Itís been historically controlled down through
time. In the last few decades implants were developed, once again, to a
fine art form. Now our own governments have it and use it to develop
their push-button assassins and other behaviors using electroshock,
hypnosis, chemical and other traumatic physical manipulation.
Soon after Hubbardís information came out about our ancient history and
what really happened, the governments started using their SS
psychiatrists to experiment with electricity and use real-time mental
and psychic implants to control behavior.
Thousands of children, the best subjects they could find, have been
kidnapped into such programs, because theyíre prime subjects with the
Ron Hubbard called it ĎP-D-H-ingí someone. That means
using Pain, Drugs and Hypnosis to control behavior and to mind control
So Iím convinced that in Russia and in the US in modern times the
techniques that now create super-soldiers, that created the entire mind
control program, started in this 1950s era - partly by studying Hubbard
and recreating what he discovered had been done to us that we had in the
records of people who recalled millions of years back in time and saw
that in the present, weíre about to repeat the past again.
And partly by reverse-engineering crashed disk technology and partially
by trading with ETs for technology. Hubbard put out the knowledge that
such techniques have worked throughout our history, dating back millions
of years. We just recreated it.
Psychiatric electric shock implants became popular by the 60s as routine
psychiatric tools. Seeing as we had SS psychiatrists directly imported
in [Project] Paperclip there were plenty of willing psyches to do the
dirty work in mind control, sex slaves, messengers who relay political
data and forget it like a robot, and super-soldier prototypes. For
behavior modification, the making of assassins and sex-slaves and spies.
We developed the know-how to segment the person into different
personalities: that was developed to a fine art form.
Because when you study whatís happened to these super-soldiers, what the
psychiatrists were being hired for, to cause people to behave in a
certain way, using electronics Ė and simultaneous hypnotic control or
commands that are delivered at the time that one is in the state of
electric shock, then thatís effective on a long-term basis, and that is
the way these super-soldiers are created.
Pain plus chemical brain alteration plus deep commands are how the
behavior is modified.
Mind control can be done through pain without
electricity too. The way the mind works when commands are given during
pain was discovered and written up in 1950 by Hubbard in his first book.
Within a few years, the techniques were being creatively utilized for
the Dark Side. Nazi Project Paperclip doctors were given the information
to enhance their new employment in the USA. History has repeated itself.
At the same time, there was a exploding populist movement to use these
techniques on ourselves, by partnering with another and using the
knowledge in the book.
Now Hubbard showed us how to reverse these techniques that are sometimes
done to us in between lifetimes for the purpose of keeping our memories
destroyed - to keep us in Earth prison. He showed us how to recover
knowledge of who we are and what our personal histories are.
My friend here has worked on undoing electric shock. I did it with one
person too... and what an undertaking when it happens on oneís current
body. It takes skill, but there are methods to undo electric shock:
where the effect can be reversed, and memory and body health can be
But it does require that you take it to the point of being able to
remove the spirit fully out of their body Ė because the brain circuits
are partly destroyed by that kind of electronic application Ė so the
personís got to have more than just a body healing.
But if you can remove a being from his body, they have the power to heal
their own body and heal whatís happened to their synapses, and, most of
all, core spirit energy, from those kinds of experiences.
So I believe that itís not what I did personally that has to do with the
whistleblower thing. Itís the significance of who L. Ron Hubbard was and
what he tried to do about the world situation. He bit off more than he
I believe that the US government is now under partial control of a race
of dark ETs - because the government did not know how to evaluate which
race of them to trust. The US government and other governments took the
information from Hubbardís work and they are using its dark-sided,
morphed modern versions to keep civilization from knowing the very
secret he discovered about OUR power. The new techniques allow you to
destroy memory, not recover it. They allow you to dumb down a
population, not wake them up.
We ALL have these kinds of memories. Weíve ALL been messed with. When
memory is restored, we find that we ALL end up remembering how we got
here or were sent here through these nefarious methods where we were
implanted Ė implanted meaning... while using electronics, we were given
behavior modification hypnotic control commands to keep our natural,
real, true abilities limited and to not really know who we are, where we
came from: to not have a memory that goes back millions of years, like
some of these ETs have. Right?
And now some whistleblowers and some
contacts are acknowledging that indeed this is a prison planet.
So you can listen to recordings in the í50s and í60s where Hubbardís
talking about all of this. Many people in Scientology recovered similar
independently derived memories... we all have knowledge and memory: we
can recall the galaxy teaming with intelligent life and a huge variety
of life forms, and all the things that are now coming out in Camelot.
Ron Hubbard would have LOVED Camelot! He would have offered to
demonstrate his techniques in public so people could observe how memory
is recovered. In fact, he did that for the public in many demonstrations
and lectures in the 50s.
In the í50s and í60s we in the Church of Scientology were talking about
all this because we sat around remembering our history. We loved Star
Trek because we REMEMBERED its reality as life in this universe!
remembered being in different bodies, different races, being different
kinds of ETs, being robot bodies Ė you as a spirit occupying a robot
body or bodies that looked like dolls, or being at what is a higher
dimension, which is just spiritually, really functioning at a higher
level, and we have been the fourth dimensional and fifth dimensional and
I mean, all of that is a matter of restoring our memory records.
B: And for example, just to support what youíre saying,
in 2006 Bill Deagle in his Granada Forum lecture was talking about the Illuminati
being controlled by higher dimensional demonic entities.
D: Right. And, you know, these entities are looked at as pretty
frightening by normal humans, but itís because humans donít have ways to
become comparable to those entities in power or in understanding: to
have comparable abilities to entities that are stuck in a repetition of
(quote) ďevilnessĒ or ďacts of control, domination and power,Ē rather
than having their own freedom.
K: Okay, so thatís been established, and I understand what youíre
saying. Certainly he had those techniques and he was aware of all of
that. But I actually think that the occult goes back a lot further than
Hubbard. Hubbard was born relatively recently, so those techniques did
exist in the occult in various disciplines. Do the illuminati come from
D: As a matter of fact, Hubbard studied with
Crowley. He studied with
Crowley, so the techniques to enter the dark side did exist and he
studied their application and what they were, but the techniques to UNDO
ďthe Dark SideĒ did not much exist, and that is what Hubbard discovered.
And that was uniquely different.
After he proved that memory could be recovered from the womb and birth,
many methods were derived to find these memories. One of those is now
well-known as Rebirthing. Hubbard was the inspiration for many such
Even the brain was investigated after his book came out. Surgeons
touched parts of the open brain to see if certain memories resided in
certain parts of the brain. After Hubbardís book proved that the
memories exist, there was an explosion of studies and therapies and
research, none of it now attributed to his discoveries.
K: I understand. Okay, so given that, now letís fast-forward to you are
a person within this organization, these things are happening, these
people are being trained to get, you know, to basically free themselves
using these techniques.
Russiaís interested in Hubbard. So letís now explain sort of what
propelled you to do what you were doing. In other words, can you maybe
chronicle just in a superficial way to some degree or in as much depth
as you want, what was corroding the organization and how it came along
and then why... like something of the drama that brought you to the
place where you wrote this letter and then what the letter did.
D: Well, for a start I believe that I have had
D: And the reason I say that Ė and Iíve only recently come to the
realization that itís probably what happened Ė is because the way that I
accessed certain understandings of the universe was that I had a great
deal of revelation about what happened to mankind at our inception, or
at the inception of the human race, and I went into various states in
which I could time-travel and be fully out of my body and go where I
But the reason I think there was ET intervention on me is that I didnít
eat any food or drink any water for three months, and I didnít sleep for
three months. During that entire time, I was manifesting an extension of
Hubbardís techniques that went beyond... that were a continuation beyond
what Hubbard did.
And I realized some things that were stuck that wouldnít allow
Scientologists to progress.
I felt Hubbard could progress and get out of
whatever ailed him, he had some problem and it was becoming undeniable
that something was deeply wrong with him. He had become paranoid. Now I
know why. It was well-founded. He had no idea of the kind of technology
used against him. The ďhiddenĒ factor is what makes it so dangerous.
I was very determined at that time, with a small group of people I was
working with, to get to him. But he was basically held a paranoid
prisoner in the desert in California [Ed. Note:
Gilman Hot Springs] and
we couldnít get to him. He died shortly after in a pretty nefarious,
intentionally neglected and despicable way.
But that level of ability I had for three months: not eating, sleeping
or drinking water... the abilities only stopped short in that I could
not stop breathing. I still had to breathe, but all other body functions
I didnít need anymore. I never slept, and I was more wide awake than Iíd
ever been wide awake. During that whole three months I experienced a
continual amassing of knowledge. I experienced being many places in many
I learned much about our past, and there was a full
transcendence of time. I was in simultaneity without break for three
K: So you were working with a small group of people.
D: Actually I was alone when all this happened - not with the others
directly. I just didnít see them and was not in a state to be able to
explain it to them.
You know, weíre hearing about in Camelot how we are hybrids and how we
were genetically engineered. But itís more than genetic engineering, its
also spiritual engineering, and very precise entity engineering.
in that three months I was shown, and I never knew quite how it was I
was shown, but I thought recently it must have been that I was
contacted, because when I started to get this information there were
many, many, many beings talking to me that came to me in the room and I
thought: Why me?
Because I didnít see that I had done very much to deserve all that
understanding and knowledge. But for whatever reason, I downloaded this
extraordinary information and then I just understood a concept of
stepping stones that were an extension of what Hubbard did.
Another person in the little group broke it down and made further
discoveries. He wrote it up and taught others how to deliver new
techniques derived from these discoveries. But all of what I received is
not intact today in a delivery form. Much of what I utilized and what I
downloaded is still with me. Iíd like to see the work completed.
has been a revelation, as much of what I learned in the download is
being revealed by ETs.
K: You got information. What information?
D: Information about how the human race was constructed. Information
about missed steps in Scientology. Others have discovered techniques to
enhance Scientology, but all too often they leave behind parts of it
that should still be used.
I discovered a crucial understanding that Hubbard had missed. Most
everyone in the subject back then had received new abilities, but some
went out of body and couldnít maintain the ability. Now I know what to
do so that abilities can be a magnified and maintained.
I donít have an
organization to deliver it, though, and my small group never took it all
K: And are you able to put that in words?
D: In words? What that technique is? Let me see... We are each of us
infinite in our abilities to create energy, and we naturally have
infinite energy, BUT when we do not manifest it in a way that is free,
it boomerangs on us and our own energy fields are confused so that we
canít actually use them.
And when we canít use them, we canít manifest as we are and so we lose
abilities. Our infinite energy is infinite. We must learn to direct and
manage it or it turns inward on us.
One must learn to USE it, or the misdirected energy will abuse oneself
and others. Weíre structured to flow energy and manifest. We canít NOT
do that without removing ourselves from life.
Eastern religions are based on dealing with our energies by removing
ourselves. Buddha did, and that is your life work then. Not to live and
manifest, but to remove and disengage to end all suffering.
Suffering is not from living, but from not understanding that desire and
life and energy must be manifested as one really IS in order NOT to
If you donít know what you are, you canít understand your abilities and
educate yourself in their happy utilization and enjoy your gifts for
pleasure, rather than pain.
Youíve got to become educated as the infinite soul you are. So, from
where we are, we need to successively deal with a larger and varied
energy field so that we can manifest energy thatís more and more
developed. Defining this as the model of expansion was actually
discovered by one of us in the small group and written up in extensive
files along with training courses and techniques to begin to deliver
So by increasing our own ability we can deal with these entities we hear
about that are these hyper-dimensional evil entities and so on, we can
connect to them. We have the ability to go beyond, stand ground, and to
talk to them, and to communicate with them, and to assist them to get
out of their own repeating dark destructive patterns.
But we canít do that unless we go through certain processes ourselves to
reach these different levels Ė and to undo whatís been done to us or
what weíve done in our own past, which is keeping our energy boomeranged
against ourselves. Then we can again put our energy outward.
I donít know if that was clear!
K: Okay. That was the beginning. Thatís interesting. So from there you
were working with a small... initially you said you were alone and you
kind of developed this technique in which you could basically become a
Breatharian, in essence to live on air. And did you use sunlight at all
to energize yourself?
D: Yes. You could get nutrition from sun and air, and I never got past
that point of not eating, sleeping or drinking water. My body got
lighter, but I wasnít levitating except on one occasion.
K: Okay. So youíre using this, youíre doing this on your own but at the
same time youíre part of the organization, Iím assuming.
D: Well, officially I was.
K: And then you were working with a small group.
D: And I was also working with a small group. Yes.
K: Do you want to say how small?
D: Three people.
K: So, two other people.
D: Two other people. It takes basically a triangular energy to generate
power. Two terminals, Positive and Negative, and a Ground. Itís good to
work with three people until you can do it yourself.
B: Do you still have those techniques? Could you get back in touch with
them, or have you somehow disconnected from them?
D: I intentionally recreated the necessity to sleep again. Iíve always
regretted it. I donít sleep a lot of the time. I sleep about three
nights a week, maybe 25 hours a week. But thatís more than I would like.
B: Very interesting.
D: Itís an entire structure that makes you sleep, and itís very exact.
You have to know it, and you have to know how to undo it, because itís
intentional that we sleep, and itís how we deal with all our not fully
conscious energy. Without REM [Rapid Eye Movement] sleep. we go insane.
But once youíve dealt with these energies and contacted and eliminated
the automatic installed sleep programs, you donít need to sleep. Sleep
is a way to handle the fact that weíre ignorant as a spiritual and
physical being. But when youíre not, you donít need to sleep.
We need sleep to repair health every night as it is, because weíre
ignorant of health. You donít need to sleep, ultimately. But you have to
know how to get to the other side of sleep. We are all drug-dependent,
sop to speak, and we donít even know what that means when I say it.
B: Very interesting.
D: Not sleeping is not just an ability to acquire by learning it. You
have to be able to go through the energy fields that are boomeranged on
you. Part of it is dietary, too. You have to clean up all the toxins
before you can work on the deeper installed spiritual mechanism of
B: Thereís a bunch of questions there! But letís stay on the topic.
K: So itís a little bit like following a plot. So here you are, youíre
doing this technique and youíre breaking through certain levels that you
think are holding back at least Ron Hubbard and his organization on some
D: Well, holding back all of mankind. What Ron Hubbard discovered was
why mankind is trapped and why mankind in the condition it is. He wanted
to free us. He put the organization there because he wanted it to free
everyone on the planet.
But, instead, it was heavily attacked and he was attacked, and it was
finally taken down through children. And I believe those children
themselves were part of a psychic program, because those children were
given jobs in the organization to run the adults.
They were called ďThe Messenger OrgĒ. They never went to real school.
They were like five, six, seven years old. They were his servants and
the only people who could get close to him.
B: Were they that young?
B: I didnít know that.
D: Oh yeah, you bet they were, itís all they knew.
K: Did they go on the boat? How many children, and did they go on the
boat with him?
D: Yeah, they were the only ones who had access to Ron. The adults
couldnít even get to him, only the children could. And itís the children
who took over the organization. The person that runs that organization
today was one of those children that started out very young.
K: Okay. And how many children? Do you know?
D: I donít know how many there were. Hundreds. In the end they fought it
out. I mean at the end there were three or four of them that were
fighting it out for control of the Church and they were like 12 years
old, or not much older. One of them won, and he got control of that
B: Let me clarify this just a little bit by bouncing this off you -
because it kind of sounds a bit weird. What youíre saying is that these
children served as messengers.
D: They called them that.
B: Right, but let me tell you what I understand, because I was never in
the Church, and I was never a part of that environment at all, so Iíve
got no personal experience.
What Iíd understood was that they served as messengers, both verbal
messages and written messages, but the reason why they had power was
because they had the power to change the message, or not deliver the
message, or to falsify messages.
D: Thatís right. And there must have been instruction to them that
programmed them to know how to do alter directions until they themselves
became instilled with the personal drive for power and dominance. They
were intentionally programmed to have enormous egos.
B: And therefore that put them in entire control of the communications,
like a spy program in a computer.
D: They were. Exactly.
B: And they could do absolutely anything they wanted to.
D: Thatís right, and they did. They totally did. They totally did. Many
communications never got to Ron. Many were altered. He ended up afraid
or withdrawn, a Howard Hughes-type figure. No one else talked to him but
K: So who recruited the children initially?
D: Well, I believe that the government infiltrated sleeper and conscious
adult agents into the Church who trained the children; that there
programs with secret intentions that went on with the children, but that
it wasnít known to the parents, and was hidden in plain sight.
K: Agents who were members of the organization, youíre saying.
D: Exactly. Exactly. But the children were programmed to become inhuman
and not like children; they became an entity unto themselves.
K: They were trained, brought up in the organization, so to speak, and
trained in these methods.
D: Well, not trained very well in actual Scientology, not the real
techniques, but the powerful military side of things. Entire sections
became like the Gestapo.
D: Not educated in real Scientology very well at all. They were taking
down the real Scientology.
K: They were infiltrated in a sense that somehow, but did you feel
that...? Like letís say we have a kid, would you feel the child and the
parent would be infiltrated by the CIA?
D: They were separated from their parents.
K: They were separated?
D: Because there was, it was called The Messenger Organization. It was
within the Church, and the parents would be working in some section of
the organization and the children would be going through their own
training, which was supposed to be like regular school - but wasnít so
much like regular school. It was highly disciplinarian.
The person who took over the Church when Hubbard died wasnít even a high
school graduate. He did NOT have a good education. But he was trained in
force and he was trained to dominate.
He was trained in control. He was
trained in using power, and he runs that organization that way.
B: What youíre saying is that the conditioning, so to speak, came much
more from the organization than from the parents, and itís almost
D: I think there was an organization within the organization, because
the IRS ended up running... I mean, the place was loaded with IRS agents
and lawyers that ran it, which took over the Church.
K: And what year was this when that happened?
D: It happened fully in the í80s. The final coup.
B: I remember that another whistleblower,
Bill Robertson, who we may or
may not end up talking about, named Alan Hibbert as also one of the
infiltrators - and also, I believe, the Broekers. All of this is in the
public record and itís extensively debated on the internet. But the
point is that there was good reason to believe that there were agents in
D: Oh, there has to have been.
B: ...in this pyramidal structure that was complicit in this takeover
and many of them were sleepers, so to speak, that had been there for a
very long time. And all this was going on alongside you because you were
also fairly senior. I think this was the question Kerry was asking. You
were fairly senior in this pyramidal structure. Is that accurate?
D: No, I was close to people that were senior in the structure.
B: Okay. All right.
D: See, itís my belief that the FBI, the CIA and the IRS, the AMA and
the American Psychiatric Association, all together joined in taking down
Scientology because it was exposing each one of them because Hubbard was
spying on them and releasing their own incriminating documents - and
openly curing disease in the 50s.
He published a periodical of listed crimes with the time, location and
events, with names. He made enemies, alright. But the biggest threat was
that Hubbard was a threat to the Illuminati, to
the Anunnaki, because he
had much truth about our past, about who we actually are.
donít want us to keep remembering our history! And he researched and
published successful techniques to free us of our amnesia. He just
the Controllers are STILL here, and never left!
K: How did these people begin the take-down? In other words, how did it
D: It manifested through children. Those children in The Messenger Org
were not the same as the people in the regular organization. They were
not the same. They were separate.
K: But Iím saying youíve got auditors, youíve got the Scientology
organization operating, so how did, literally, the takedown occur? Do
you even know? I mean, Iím just asking.
Like in other words, was there... letís say... Iím just going to guess:
was there some human being besides a child who went into a position of
power, who became sort of an insidious leader?
D: It has to have happened on an invisible adult level first. But the
children manifested the takeover. There was corruption that happened
where people were compromised, as was Ron. Ron didnít know the real
And true to the age old technique, his own justice system ended up
turned in on the members themselves. L. Ron Hubbard was compromised, and
I donít know which L. Ron Hubbard, but L. Ron Hubbard was compromised
and made to be paranoid and it became an organization of dominating
His carefully thought out justice system, which he simply
called Ethics, became a series of kangaroo courts.
People lost the real evolution of a workable human justice or ethics
system and blamed the now travesty on the original for the crimes now
committed using THAT as the means.
His real ethics system was a work of genius, but was subverted and used
to commit horrible crimes against members. We blamed the system, and
didnít know it had been intentionally corrupted and turned suppressive
to the members themselves in order to take them all down.
Hubbard became blinded with paranoia and it started bit by bit, way
back. From fearless to frightened. If he only knew there was good reason
to be frightened, but, as he said, if you know the real reason for
something you can DO something about it. You can deal with it.
sets us free.
K: He ended up taking money? Or they started changing the techniques?
D: Money was taken off the front lines, but Hubbard allowed or
participated early on in using forcefulness to control people and to try
to discipline them. Desperate.
Major mind control technique. Entice a pure being to commit one act of
compromise, and he is so basically good that that act becomes an
Achilles Heel until he can see WHO manipulated him and why and what his
own part in it was.
B: Let me make a suggestion here, which is also in the form of a
question. Because, as I was saying, I wasnít around at this time. What I
understand is that, for example, a message would come through apparently
from Hubbard with apparently his signature on it saying: Donít do it
that way, do it THIS way from now on. This is an order.
And nobody ever really knew whether this came from Hubbard. It could
have been falsified because the messengers were fully in control of the
And even to this day there are debates about whether Hubbardís signature
has been falsified on certain Ė theyíre called Technical Bulletins Ė
because everything that has got to do with defining the exact details of
how a beneficial process should be applied was defined by Hubbard, and
as his research was refined over the years he would periodically make
alterations and amendments and upgrades, like Iíve discovered a better
way to do this; do it this way. Or thereís a better way to do this, do
it that way.
And all youíve got to do is to have somebody faking that and then say:
Iíve got a better way to do it; do it this way, and actually was it is
was sabotaging the process and producing a completely different result.
Thereís been extensive research done Ė actually itís sort of like
historical research Ė done in the context of the Church of Scientology
now, just looking up and backing up how everythingís been changed and
changed and changed.
D: Thatís entirely correct. The subject is now a shadow of what it once
was. Periodically, I walk in one of their organizations. Iím not in bad
standing as my actual self. I can walk in and out and say hello to
people who know me and, you know, nobody knows anything.
I maintain good standing and I go in and look at what theyíre doing, and
itís absolutely a different subject, almost not recognizable, and the
things that had the most power are so watered down that theyíre
Ron is made into a cult icon. Itís now a cult mythology. They tell the
people he died because he ďwantedĒ to go on to do his next level and his
body was holding him back. What a crock! They make movies these days
that make him look like an ascended God.
He would have been disgusted.
B: Yes. Okay.
Dís friend: ... Destruction of it from places very, very powerful and
very high up on the levels. Senior technical persons changing the
workable procedures. And that went on because The Messenger Org had a
tremendous control and used it, and the children went crazy.
K: They went crazy?
Dís friend: They went crazy with power because Ron would say go out and
tell somebody to do something and the children would go out and say:
Here I am, L. Ron Hubbard. The child basically would say that and the
people would say: Okay, fine, Iíll do whatever you say. Just imagine a
nine-year-old or a seven-year-old with that kind of power. Pretty
K: So they believed them.
Dís friend: Absolutely. Well, that was the policy. They were Ronís
Messengers who were supposed to give his exact communications as he gave
it to them.
B: Itís very hard to imagine. I think itís very hard for the new
generation of Scientologists to really understand that. This is one of
the reasons why what weíre recording here is as useful as a historical
D: My friend here was in it from 1950 when the book first came out. Heís
one of the so-called old-timers. They call them that. Most of them are
Dís friend: Very few of us left.
D: Very few are left. Very few have what it takes physically to live old
like you have.
B: We were talking about how things were altered, and how they got sand
in the works, and things were gradually changed. And the power was more
and more in the hands of the children and less and less in the hands of
the people who really were competent. And thereís an example Ė I guess
you captured it about how Bill Robertson... is it worthwhile explaining
who Bill Robertson was?
Dís friend: There was this guy named Bill Robertson, and he had gone up
in the hierarchy and he was a captain in the Sea Organization on the
ships, and he had various stories. One of the stories was that one of
the ships was in France and heíd tell us that the ship shouldnít go back
to England because if they did the government would confiscate it.
the kids that were running the center of communication at that point
said: Forget it. We arenít paying any attention to that. So the ship
came back and the government actually confiscated it. That kind of
And one time when Robertson was in England, and Ron and he were about
three buildings apart Ė Ron was in a building, Robertson was staying in
another apartment about three apartments away Ė and Ron sent some
communication to Robertson, the children picked it up and the kids
brutally said to Robertson that Ron doesnít like what youíre doing and
youíre in a lower condition.
B: What do you mean a lower condition?
Dís friend: Youíre in disfavor, so therefore youíre going to have to
make some amends to make up for what youíve done - whatever it was at
that particular time.
And the report was an invention of the kids, a ten-year-old or
eight-year-old, whatever he was. And so Robertson fell out of favor,
didnít know that Ron didnít say that himself, and there was a lot of
fallout from that episode.
Those kinds of things because of the
Messenger Org went on more and more as the Messenger Org children got
more and more power.
D: Bill Robertson wasnít the only one it happened to. Many, many
powerful people that were high up that had tremendous ability to
technically create and assist others to become aware of their own
psychic abilities and...
The Church of Scientology was fighting the IRS, they were fighting
psychiatry, they were certainly fighting electric shock techniques of
any sort, and they were fighting drugs, medical drugs, and all drug use.
They put out a magazine detailing the crimes of these agencies and
organizations. That really made enemies. He had no fear in telling the
truth and exposing this stuff.
His techniques didnít utilize any hypnosis or drugs in order to assist
somebody to have an extensive recall of millions of years of their own
history and to realize that this is really the nature of existence, that
weíre all eternal spirits.
That knowledge was common for us in those days and it was NOT done
through these techniques that have since become popular: getting
regressed and somebody else tells you what your history was, and having
drugs so you can find out, having hypnosis so you can find out.
The techniques that he came up with were pretty straightforward. You
actually could remember, yourself, no different than you know what you
ate for breakfast. You could remember what you were doing a thousand
years ago and it really didnít feel that different once you were
developed to a certain point. There was nobody else who ever told you
anything about yourself with these techniques; it was purely your own
memory. The techniques were not mind control.
They reversed mind
K: So to get to this place where we have the organization being
infiltrated in various ways and the children of members being targeted,
you know, and being messed with in the process. Right?
K: So they interfered with the lines of communication such that rifts
occurred in the organization.
K: Were there also individuals who maybe started to manifest things?
Like you said, the organization was against drugs, but also people that
were, probably Ė Iím guessing, you can correct me Ė embezzling money,
encouraging drug use, doing power games, possibly using various negative
D: As far as I could tell, anything like that came from the top only. It
wasnít people in the organization. At the top, Hubbard had to hide. He
ordered money taken off the top. He had to hide and he had to escape
constantly from various governments. Thatís why he was out in the ocean.
K: But at the top of the organization? Youíre saying those things would
have done at the top?
D: Not drugs that I know of, but money. Unbelievable sums of money were
siphoned off the organization and carried, hand carried, so that Hubbard
could maintain an ability to not be found. In paper bags sometimes!
A million bucks in a paper bag!
K: Okay, so youíre saying some of the money. The big thing about at
least that I remember about Scientology was that it cost a huge amount.
D: Huge! And they manipulated the public to get it. They promised they
would get so many abilities, they would make back the money they
borrowed and gave to the Church. Mortgaging houses, credit cards etc.
K: And then people were funneling money in there and youíre saying some
of it went to Hubbard. Iím assuming not all of it went to Hubbard.
D: Well, much of it did, and to buying land outright. Now, in the
present day the money goes to the person who took over; one of the
children. They probably get it off the top the way Hubbard once did,
only theyíre also in cahoots with the IRS and the government, they are
not hiding like Ron was, cause they made peace with the criminals.
Church had so much dirt on the IRS that David Miscavige used it to
demand that they back off the Church. It was pure blackmail. Miscavigeís
blackmail dropped the ďchargesĒ.
K: At the top of the triangle, did you know the names of people who
became instrumental in...? I didnít read your letter yet, so I donít
know if it named names.
D: Not at all. Not at all.
K: So you didnít name names. But were you aware of the names of people
who were instrumental in infiltrating and in bringing in other
D: Let me try to remember. Give me a minute. Can you remember who
was...? (Addressing his friend)
K: And you donít have to publicize them.
D: Itís okay. Iím just asking my friend if he recalls names. This is
like so old for me. Almost 30 years ago. I donít recall names of adults
who were really messing stuff up. I recall some childrenís names. Do you
recall? It seemed that there were really compromised people.
Dís friend: They formed a Watchdog Committee.
D: Oh yeah, the Watchdog Committee. They were bad. They were adults.
Dís friend: It was composed of an IRS member. I donít know his name.
D: That was it. Thatís how they did it.
Dís friend: One IRS member, three lawyers and there was one senior
official from the Church. So basically it was the Watchdog Committee...
Ron set this up with jurisdiction over the entire organization,
policy-wise, and they could come in and correct whatever needed to be
D: Ron did? Well, if that was true and he allowed the IRS in, one of the
worst enemies, then he was fully compromised or that is an altered false
report that he set that up that way.
And they, the Watchdog Committee
could kick ass too, kick people out; they could do all kinds of stuff to
their personal business and lives and reputations Ė whatever they wanted
if they wanted to destroy somebody and decided they were an enemy of the
Dís friend: Basically, the orientation of the Watchdog Committee became
legal, so they formed up dummy corporations to protect the money, like
four or five corporations deep. A tremendous amount of money was
involved and basically they came from a legal structure, organization,
and various appropriations of publishing corporation and so forth became
separate entities and...
D: The publishing corporations watered down the material.
Dís friend: The juniors, the children, the guy who runs the Church now
was one of the messengers and there was about five of them and the
battle that ensued was that he finally came out on top.
D: Yes. The children fought for control and this guy got it.
B: David Miscavige. This is all in the public domain.
D: Pat and Annie Broeker... They fought each other to get control. We
were all watching and wondering who was going to get control. Big drama
in high places. Lots of bodies.
K: Okay. So but when this was happening, because what weíre trying to do
is build the scenario up to your writing the letter, so Iím trying to
paint that and so I was wondering: At what point did you become aware,
if you can remember the year?
D: At the time, í80, I think, í79, í80.
K: There were some clear indicators that the organization was going down
the wrong road.
D: Yeah. At the time I wrote it, a few of the children were fighting it
out and that was when I wrote the letter and I named those children in
B: But there were other people of course who were very aware and
becoming seriously concerned. There was a gradual, as I understand it -
this is a question - there was a gradual rising of awareness and
concern, but nobody actually did anything.
D: The leaders in the field really tried to do something. There was
actually a meeting on Flag, which was the main headquarters and all of
the heads of individual organizations Ė called franchises Ė all met
together to complain about this Watchdog Committee and the way they were
being controlled and the tech [processing techniques] was being
K: What do you mean, it was on ĎFlagí? Is there a place where it was
D: It was a place. It was the headquarters, and I believe that happened
in Florida, didnít it? Or was it on a ship?
Dís friend: Clearwater, Florida.
D: They had a land headquarters. It wasnít on the ship headquarters
where this happened. So they met, all these franchise holders and heads
that were very powerful people that knew the techniques and helped
others to have their own organizations where people could come in and go
up this ladder of getting their memory and their recall and their
freedom, basically Ė they were the ones out in the field that were
delivering this to the public.
And they all met to complain and meet, wondering what was happening to
K: Did you go to that meeting?
D: I wasnít at the meeting. The letter I wrote reported about that
meeting because I heard what happened in the meeting and what happened
to these stellar leaders had all been put down and stopped and put into
situations where they were said to be criminals within the organization,
kicked out in some cases or told that they had to do many things to make
up for the terrible things they had done.
But these were the people who had built the organization. These were the
leaders within the organization who had independently formed their own
organizations which were feeders for the higher levels in the larger
Church-run organizations. They were ravaged in this meeting that
happened in 1981.
K: Were they innocent? Is that what youíre trying to say?
D: Yeah. They were innocent. They were leaders who had done the most for
B: They were highly able, highly respected, real heroes...
K: Okay, and so, once again...
D: The Watchdog Committee, I believe, that was somewhat mysterious. I
think I talked about that in the letter. It was somewhat mysterious, who
was who in it, but they had this power that was supposedly given by Ron
but if it was signed by Ron I believe it was done through the children.
It wasnít just that Ron Hubbard knew everything that was going on.
If he did, his own mind was much compromised into some kind of state of
paranoia. He himself knew he was being attacked for many years.
Certainly since the í70s he knew he had to hide, and he had to run. He
knew he had to be on the seas.
His character of strength, of ability to take care of himself and teach
others to be responsible and stand up to evil ... He was like that and
he taught that and the people he spawned were like that, so he was out
there on the high seas doing all of this stuff and they had psychic
abilities to tell when there was going to be attacks, and what harbor to
go in, what harbor not to go in, all these sorts of things.
something happened to him.
K: Somehow he got compromised.
D: He was compromised, absolutely.
K: So then what youíre saying is they had this meeting and what was the
result of the meeting?
D: The result of the meeting was all these people that had power were
stopped from functioning, stopped from running their organizations.
K: Were they fired? Were they asked to leave the organization?
D: They were fined huge amounts of money and told theyíd committed
crimes that they hadnít committed. It was posted publicly. The people
who were the most looked up to. People felt betrayed and confused. The
leaders were publicly humiliated.
K: And just because some church fines you money, you donít have to pay
it, do you?
D: Some paid, some didnít. But things just stopped working. The
infrastructure of the Church was dysfunctional. Its own members were
turning against the hierarchy. Confidential materials were left in the
K: Okay. So at that point, did you have people leaving the organization?
D: No. Nobody was leaving. There was loyalty - and disbelief it was all
happening. Like the USA now! These people were trying to do something
about mankind. So hereís the organization delivering these techniques
and Ron Hubbard at the top and nobody knew what happened to Ron. Many
people who knew him were shut out and couldnít talk to him.
K: So youíre saying they stayed attached.
D: They were attached.
K: A sense of loyalty for what he had given them, or something like
D: There was massive confusion, upset and great betrayal, including of
persons whoíd worked with Ron directly. I wrote the letter within a
month or two after this Mission Holders meeting on Flag.
There was outrage about the meeting at Flag, so people started having
secret meetings about the big meeting; hushed conversations in halls
talking to each other around the world. Theyíd gather in peoplesí homes
and talk about what had happened, and these outrageous things that were
happening to water down and misuse techniques; and not using the
organizations system to deal with disagreements or discover who did
what, not using it correctly, misusing it in kangaroo courts of judgment
in which people were ďdeclared evilĒ in the Scientology terminology, an
But if you fought it, they would plant drugs on you or calls your
friends, family, employers and harass you. This misuse of justice had
been creeping in for some years, but at the Mission Holder meeting at
Flag, the system completely collapsed.
They isolated the highest producers and most respected leaders in the
organization and labeled them as having had criminal behavior. They had
to pay penance either in hard work or labor for doing all these ďevilĒ
The Church levied ďtaxesĒ on anyone who used Hubbardís techniques. They required 10% of your gross income if you even used the subject in
business. It was the worst of control and suppression possible to the
basic subject. The opposite of what should be done if one wanted the
subject to be well known and well thought of.
So people were meeting around the world. They were meeting, and they
were talking, and they were trying to understand: Whereís Ron? What
happened to Ron? How can all this be happening? Trying to figure it out.
These meetings were extremely intense. People would cry their hearts out
and scream in rage. Many of the people I heard weeping had been close
personal friends of Ron. There was real love and great dedication and a
sense of loyalty that was betrayed. How could Ron let this Happen? Where
IS he? What HAPPENED to him?
It was heartbreaking. It was these emotions that drove me to write the
letter. One of the great stated discoveries in Scientology was the
ďThird Party LawĒ. It stated that for two sides to continue to have a
conflict, there HAS to be a HIDDEN THIRD PARTY who is invisible or not
obvious, who is actually causing it all.
That was the core subject of my
K: Okay, so now letís get back to you. So people were doing this. You
werenít at that initial meeting in Florida. At the same time you had, I
assume, friends who were there. And so, then what happened? Did you
participate in meetings like youíre describing?
D: Yeah. I started going to them and listening to what was going on, to
these people that were heroes that had helped so many people; I listened
to them talking about what had happened.
K: Okay, so what propelled you, then, to write the letter?
D: People would cry their hearts out and scream in rage and anguish. I
witnessed some people uncontrollably weeping who were close personal
friends of Ron.
We believed that the planet was on the brink of destruction and that we
were going to save it. We believed we had the means to do so. We were a
movement. We believed our history and our future was in the stars, just
as Bob Dean says.
D: And I was giving counseling someone who worked directly for Ron
Hubbardís children, so I was finding out about all sort of untoward
things where they couldnít see Ron Hubbard, they couldnít reach him,
their mother was controlled and couldnít reach him, and that this
Messenger Organization and the Watchdog Committee were all standing in
between and they ruled what happened to Ron Hubbard and no
communications could go back and forth.
Ron and his wife had decided to separate to make it harder on the
authorities to locate him, but that may have been a manipulation by the
Messenger Org too. Maybe the Messenger Org itself created false stories
and utilized the resulting fear in LRH and his family to make it
impossible in the future to ever meet again.
So something was wrong; the family couldnít tell Ron about anything
anymore. So I kept hearing about that. The kids - his kids - were very
upset and hurt.
K: Okay, and so what made you sit down and write the letter?
D: The desire to save the subject and have the subject help mankind the
way it had started out to.
K: Okay, but was there any, you know, if I was writing a movie, was
there any inciting incident that actually said to you that you have
special knowledge, special access, and that you could write a letter
that might have an effect?
D: The final thing that caused me to write it was that severe and
dangerous unrest broke out in the public sector. The mega size LA
organization was stormed by a large crowd of upset Scientologists. They
entered the huge downstairs dining room. There were more outside the
building with megaphones, and they were surging in large numbers.
It was close to a full riot, really out of hand. The Church authorities
couldnít control it. It was like a violent revolution starting. Next,
there was going to be broken windows and physical fighting and
hospitalizations. It really looked to me as if it could start getting
violent. I was there and witnessed it all.
People were citing injustices on the megaphone and screaming in protest
and weeping on the megaphones about injustices and it was becoming mob
mentality. The Church authorities had ultimate control because they
could threaten excommunication. But the authority was wearing thin. If
it werenít for this real life situation, my letter would have had less
B: Wow. I never heard about that.
D: Critical mass was reached. It felt as if there was going to be real
violence. The authorities in the Church were clearly afraid, trying to
calm the crowd down. The next day, at another organization where I was
working, I heard about the riot from Ronís childrenís viewpoint too.
A couple of them - Arthur and Yvette - worked that other organization in
LA. They were scared too. People were demanding that they get in touch
with Ron and they could not. Diana, another older kid, was not in that
office, but Iím sure she felt the pressure terribly.
These kids are
alive now, and they were all bought off.
K: Were they very young at that point?
D: Teenagers at the most, and one of his children was killed and left in
the desert to die.
B: You mean Quentin.
K: Did he die?
D: Yeah. He was killed and left in the desert outside of Vegas.
K: And did that happen before you wrote the letter?
B: Thereís a weird offline here: Kit Green provided me with his autopsy
K: I remember that.
D: Oh yeah? What was it?
B: Suspicious. I can show you the details.
D: Iíd like to see it.
B: Iíve got it. Iíll e-mail it to you.
D: I felt terrible about Quentin. He was one of the dearest people there
ever could be. He used to come to LA and let us watch him do sessions.
He was a master at the techniques. Ron said he was the best in the
Dís friend: Can I add something here? Basically the main organization
was taken over by these new people, children that were coming up. The
missions or the outlying territories where people were actually learning
the technology were doing a tremendous job.
The people who were running the main organization didnít understand why
all this activity was going on in the outside and they thought that the
missions were ripping them off, taking all the money that should have
been turned into the central organization and all that money was being
fed out to all the mission people for their activities.
And so you have this area where thereís a fight going on, a battle is
going on between the central and the outlying organizations... I mean,
one of the senior officials used to carry a .45 and he had it on his
desk and that was who youíd go talk to, and hereís the .45 looking right
D: Youíre talking about Russ?
Dís friend: No.
D: Well he had one too.
Dís friend: Anyway, one of the basic tenets of this whole technology was
that any time you have a battle when you have fight of any kind between
two people, look for a third party.
Dís friend: And the Third Party Law which is all written up in all the
technology itself became very, very apparent, I believe, to Dane.
D: Yeah. It was very apparent that the battle was not between the
central organization and these outlying ones. There was somebody causing
that battle to happen, that caused the organization to fight itself.
And thatís how it was taken down, essentially. It fought itself. They
did each other in. People did each other in. Itís like people that are
married did each other in. People that loved each other, worked
together, came up the ranks together, agreed on the same principles,
were there altruistically, not there because they wanted to make a buck
Ė they were there to save mankind, and they believed Ron Hubbard that
the planet was going to be taken down, and they could see it for themselves
when they remembered their own history that it was a repeat performance
on Earth coming right on down the pike again.
They wanted to assist
people to WAKE UP, recall who they were and are, and to save the planet.
Dís friend: Let me finish my thought, which was the Third Party Law.
Itís that most of the people that were in this movement were very
conscious of the Third Party Law.
And when the Dane Tops letter came out about what had happened at the
Mission Holder Meeting in Florida, there was an edict that was put out
by the central organization that if they didnít like what you were
doing, what they said was that you are excommunicated by the Church,
period. Thatís it, nothing you can do.
And there were hundreds and
hundreds of these edicts that were put out all at once in a matter of
three, four weeks, or a month and a half.
Dís friend: The central organization, which the children and the various
alphabet agency people were in charge of. Daneís letter went out... and
thereís another factor involved here.
What happened was that the central organization formed up what was
called the Finance Police and they would come into the outlying
franchise operations, and I know specifically because a good friend of
mine ran one of the organizations and they told him: You owe us $15,000,
which is exactly what they had in their account.
They took all the money
out of the account. They just took it. They broke the Mission.
D: ďMissionĒ is another name for a Scientology franchise.
Dís friend: Weíre the Finance Police and therefore weíre totally in
charge of all the money which is supposed to come back.
Now this happened worldwide. Now you can imagine what this central
organization is saying: All your money is mine. Daneís letter comes out.
Everybody gets the letter, and says, Look at this: Who IS the third
D: Thatís what I wrote in my letter.
Dís friend: And everybody is saying the Third Party is who? And this
question that went out in Daneís letter that ended up being sent to
everybody. This is what started the whole full schism and exodus.
K: A spiraling.
Dís friend: A spiral. Right.
D: It was not just that part of us was wrong and others were right. The
real destroyer of the Church was something hidden outside of all us,
planting false information and making us fight ourselves and most of
all, the founder, Ron Hubbard.
K: But before we get to exactly the letter, just a little bit more
background in terms of here you are. This is occurring around you,
youíre going to these meetings that you described, and thereís not just
you, but thereís two other people that youíre kind of like in a small
group with. Is that correct?
D: They werenít part of these meetings. They wanted nothing to do with
the whole thing. One of the people in the small group was already out of
the organization and had already seen the writing on the wall - and the
other one was afraid to get involved, or be seen as going against the
It was only myself who went to the meetings and public outcries
and downright insurrection.
K: Okay, so you were alone there. Were those two people working with
you? Because you said you were working with two other people. Were they
involved in writing the letter?
D: No. They had nothing to do with it. It was totally individual, just
myself. The work I was doing with them involved these enhanced psychic
ability techniques that were originally derived from the three months of
an ET contact.
One of the three of us had devised some techniques too, and we utilized
it all. We were working with each other to bring the techniques to a
higher level... Just the technology itself that Hubbard did, we enhanced
it to make it go farther so that we would have more abilities and more
stability once achieving them. And that was the only work I was doing
with the two other people.
K: Okay, here in the setting at this point, I donít know what year are
D: All of this happened between í80 and í82.
K: So at this point, you decide to write a letter. Is it your ET contact
that says youíve got information or a download that says write this
letter or helped you write it? Or was it some other stimulus that was
direct that made you write the letter?
D: The public riot in LA was the last straw. It was truly frightening. I
had strength from my experience of enhanced abilities. In retrospect and
having learned all the information on Camelot, I can now see that I must
have had an ET contact to cause the ability to go without food, water
and sleep for three months and download the material about the creation
of the human race - and much more.
To go beyond the ďveilĒ, one might say. But the things that happened to
give me the courage to create Dane Tops and writing the letter, was not
an ET contact as such. Dane Tops was born out of a passionate desire to
save the Church of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard from destruction.
K: Just a sober analysis from the point of view of a person, yourself,
who had some inside access and knowledge and then with what was going on
around you who were, basically, it was falling apart Ė as it was Ė as
you described it.
D: Falling apart, but nobody was leaving.
K: Okay. Even though they were being sent letters to be excommunicated,
they wouldnít leave.
D: They wouldnít leave.
K: Okay. So at that point, with that setting, you write your letter.
Okay, now you had to be hidden at that moment.
D: I was always hidden as Dane Tops.
K: In other words, you have a persona that they know you as. When you
walk in, they would say hello?
D: Yeah. They would know me just as I am now, but I became someone else
and I wore different clothes when I was Dane Tops. I wasnít recognizable
at all. I used a different license plate on my car. I had a complete
K: To do what?
D: To be Dane Tops. Because what I did was I got a mailbox that was...
actually I had to find a mailbox where I couldnít be followed or known,
that wouldnít be a normal suspected mailbox, so I took out a mailbox in
the name of Dane Tops and the mailbox was actually in a business of
mailboxes that were utilized for pornography mail between people. There
was some security around it to protect it from the law.
K: So you thought of this ahead of time.
B: This is very important part of the story.
K: [to Bill] I know itís important, so just let me set the scene so I
can understand the story a little bit more.
[To Dane] I want to understand because I know you might know a little
bit more, but I know nothing, so Iím just talking to you as someone who
knows nothing about what you did and how you did it.
You wanted to write this letter. Did you decide to write the letter and
then figure out how to put it out there? Or did you first figure out how
to disguise yourself, knowing what this organization would do to you if
you wrote such a letter? Do you see what Iím asking?
D: I wrote the letter out of my own passion, and I hadnít figured out
all of this, because I had no idea of the impact the letter would have
when I wrote it.
I wrote the letter and sent it to a Los Angeles mailing list of certain
key people, maybe 20 or 30 people originally, thatís all
Thatís the only time I ever mailed it. But I wanted a return address to
see if anyone responded, and that needed to be totally hidden so they
wouldnít find out who I was.
K: They didnít have e-mail then, so how did you send it?
D: By regular mail, snail mail.
K: And was it traceable?
D: Yeah, because I had the return address which was this phony Post
Office box that was a real one under the name of Dane Tops, and Dane
Tops is who signed the letter.
When I went to get mail from that Post Office box, I wore a disguise and
I had a false license plate. Because I knew the organization would be
K: So you had a disguise, Okay. You sent out the letter before you
decided to protect yourself?
D: I think before I sent it out, I got the PO Box so I was protected
when I sent it. But when I wrote it, I didnít know what I was going to
do. I just wrote it out of my own passion and desire.
But then when I decided to send it out and got some significant
snail-mail addresses of major people in the organization in LA, I
decided I canít be known or allow myself to be discovered.
I signed Dane Tops out of nowhere and I did this thing with a
pornographic snail-mail address. I had to figure out how to disguise
myself. I got an idea that was wild for me, to go somewhere I had never
I got my disguise because I went to a gay porno manís movie and I looked
at the way they were dressed in trenchcoats when they went because they
would go in these movies and masturbate in the movies and make
connections in the movies.
So I went to several of these movies in a trench coat outfit and copied
their manners and then I found out where one of these porno addresses
was by asking from one of the guys in the movie who thought I was a gay
I had to really take care of myself there.
K: Did you get advice from somebody, or did you think of this all on
D: It was all on my own. I wrote the letter. Then I had the thought: How
am I going to do this? I thought: Well, Iíll try this; Iíll just dress up
like one of those guys who go to these movies in Hollywood.
were around and you would see the men outside and they were slinky and
in disguise. I started going to the movies. I found out from one of them
where I could get a secret address because they had secret addresses.
Gay life was different then.
K: Thatís great.
B: Now, at that time, nobody else, not one person at that time, knew
that you were doing this.
B: This was absolutely solo, a total personal secret. Nobody knew.
K: Did you have romantic partner at that time? And she didnít know?
D: No, she didnít know. She was very much in the organization, but she
wouldnít have agreed with anything that I was doing, so I had to keep
quiet with her. And I kept bringing this weird outfit home in a
suitcase, so it was very weird.
K: So you sent the letter out without her knowing about it?
Dís friend: I was there too. You told me about it and I got very alarmed
since I was really...
D: You were high up, higher up than I was.
Dís friend: I got very alarmed and said: Well, this is all really
incredible. [Dane laughs] What are you going to do to protect yourself?
And then he came up with whatever he did to create the image, because I
thought if this gets out, then weíre all dead, anyone who knows you.
D: Dead meat, yeah.
K: But you knew ahead of time that if this letter... at that time you
knew, because now I would say everyone would know.
D: At that time I knew, yes, Kerry.
K: You knew theyíd kill you over the letter.
D: I didnít know if theyíd kill me. Work me over, maybe, but I knew that
we would be excommunicated and any kind of reputation my wife and I had
would be ruined, all our mail would be gone through from there on out,
weíd be harassed where we lived and worked and our neighbors would be
They wouldnít necessarily kill me, but they did a lot of bad things,
like theyíd plant drugs on you and get you thrown in jail. Theyíd do
things like that to ruin your life if you were messing with them. Many
lives were ruined.
B: And you said, I think before we started recording this, that they
threw a lot of resources at finding out who this person was.
D: Well yeah, because when I sent it out just to Los Angeles people. I
didnít know what was going to happen. I was amazed! When it mushroomed
and exploded, they went after me.
Dís friend: I was looking at a clip on Miscavige and it turns out that
heís 47 or 49 now. I thought that was amazing. Time really flies.
D: That means he was a late teen when he took over the Church. But he
had started in the Church when he was a little, little child.
Dís friend: He started when he was four or five.
B: Four or five, thatís unbelievable.
Dís friend: There was some attention to some education either home
D: Well, he could read and write.
Dís friend: But there was some Church education.
D: Yeah. The hard-ass stuff.
Dís friend: But mostly it was crazy.
D: It was all discipline. It was like military discipline for little
Dís friend: Yeah. Bad news for kids.
D: Unless you got to be in power, then you were privileged. [laughs]
Dís friend: Yeah, really. They had their hierarchy in there also.
D: Everything had a hierarchy. Thatís what it was all built on, right?
Dís friend: Right, whoís the top dog.
Dís friend: Iíve read some of the articles on Miscavigeís escapades, and
some of the people went into great detail because The Times in
Clearwater... I think three guys left and went public, published their
stories in The Times in Clearwater about Miscavigeís escapades.
D: What were they?
Dís friend: He ended up using raw force to control people. I mean, slap
them in the face, punch them, jump up and down, hit them in the side of
the head, and smash them in the ears.
D: Heavy, heavy, heavy. Yes, bad stories about that guy.
Dís friend: And because it takes raw force... Miscavige is the one that
got the IRS to classify Scientology as a Church, as a religion, which is
an interesting thing in itself. He got the legal status as a religion.
D: So he let all those IRS agents in? Miscavige did it?
Dís friend: Miscavige went through, got a tremendous amount of legal
background on all the IRS people.
D: Well, the Church had been doing the research on the IRS and
collecting files on it for years: so Miscavige wanted to make peace with
Dís friend: No, he wanted a deal up front and he laid it out one way or
the other. They had the goods on the government and IRS. The edict from
David Miscavige was: If you will give us what we want, we will not
prosecute you personally, officially. And he did it up front. I mean he
went there in his usual manner, used a lot of force.
D: So this was what, age 18 or something?
Dís friend: Yeah. This was the time when the Church flipped over and
became a legal entity with government protection and they no longer
attacked the government after that.
D: I see - legal, doesnít have to pay taxes, a religion.
Dís friend: And the whole transaction never went public.
D: Right. Nothing went public. Nobody knows about it.
Dís friend: Well, they know it happened but nobody can find a date. It
was a corporate structure, and itís all private. So the whole area was
turned into... the energy was physical, raw energy thatís being used.
Even his niece turned against him.
D: David Miscavige?
Dís friend: Yeah, went public on it.
D: And said what?
Dís friend: That he was a bad person and he was...
D: Beating up people and stuff?
Dís friend: Beating up people, using undue force, no real communication,
etcetera. But he really got crazy when he started beating up the
D: He actually was physically beating up the Executive Committee?
Dís friend: Yeah.
D: Good God. Heís really, wow, heavy duty. Does he beat the shit out of
them or does he just slap them around?
Dís friend: Some of them he slapped around, some of them he kicked. He
hits them hard.
D: Like one hard hit, like he can deliver a great punch?
Dís friend: Yeah, but sometimes he would do it in a very inopportune
D: Do it in front of people to humiliate them. Right?
Dís friend: Yeah. Absolutely. Thereís one boss and thatís him. Thereís
D: Didnít you say he did that to Tom Cruise?
Dís friend: No.
D: It was some big star who he slapped around. Oh I know, it was when he
was married to... who was that Australian lady Tom Cruise was married
B: Nicole Kidman.
D: Nicole Kidman. Werenít you the one that told me what happened with
Dís friend: No, not me.
D: Somebody told me what happened with Miscavige and Tom Cruise.
Dís friend: Oh, he came on to her and said that she was a bitch.
D: Miscavige told that to Tom Cruise?
Dís friend: No, told it to Nicole Kidman, that she was a bad influence.
D: Miscavige told that to Nicole Kidman?
Dís friend: And he told Cruise that she was a bad influence on him.
D: And thatís why they got divorced?
Dís friend: I donít know if thatís the case.
D: But, I mean, if he says it, then Tom Cruise has to pay attention to
K: Nicole Kidman was also a Scientologist?
Dís friend: Not any more, I bet.
D: But this guy, David Miscavige, this Messenger who got control of the
Church, bad-mouthed her to Tom Cruise really heavy duty.
K: So, he was involved.
Dís friend: Well, everybody took Miscavige seriously, because he beat
people up and he was good at it. [laughs]
K: He physically beat people up.
D: Yeah, thatís right, in humiliating ways, in front of others.
K: I know, but if somebody does that, youíd expect them to lose
Dís friend: Well, he was in a position of being THE senior in the
Church, and he could kick somebody out at will, as IF he were Ron.
Thatís the power the Messengers had gotten. People did not want to be
D: See, where the whole control goes in on the populace of the Church is
that the idea that they are holding the next level thatís going to give
you this kind of freedom of retrieving all these super abilities... to
save your immortal soul! Ever hear of that?
K: Holding onto knowledge.
D: Thatís right, and the fact is, the Church stops at a certain level,
and after Hubbard died Ė actually before Ė they didnít have more levels
to offer to keep advancing people, so thatís when the real scam started.
But if they restored the full use of the techniques, people wouldnít put
up with the police control. They become individually powerful, and will
not become a slave.
K: The levels stopped after he died.
D: The true delivery was compromised before he died. The scam is that
you are going to become completely enlightened; your enlightenment
process will continue and finish to the point of full godhood provided
you get the next level and pay for it Ė and itís always the next level.
Theyíre constantly digging around in old material and trying to come up
with something new, but it isnít. And in fact the real techniques that
will get you the most stability in higher powers arenít being used at
all and were mostly abandoned, as they take too long to deliver and
people can do it with each other for no money.
B: Iíve got a little question that fits in with this, and that is that I
was very interested to know whether the idea of writing a letter was
something that sort of slowly crept up on you - or whether it came to
you in a kind of blinding flash of inspiration.
D: It was pretty much as I described a few minutes ago. My impetus
started after one terribly wrenching meeting where people were in great
emotional pain about having no answers. This was during the secret
clandestine meetings after the infamous Mission Holders Meeting. Then
the LA riot.
The letter came out of need to do something about it all,
just a total desperation and upset about what was happening to our
ability to help people worldwide.
K: Had you ever written another letter that made you want to write this
D: Not in the organization, no. Iíd written to Ron Hubbard before, and
received answers from him, but they werenít to save the organization.
They were just things within it to assist it to deliver well.
K: And was that common that people would write him?
D: Yes. People wrote him all the time, but they didnít get direct
answers a lot. For some reason, he wrote back to me and I was always
proud of that.
I had high stats or production and he took notice of the methods I was
using and validated that, and even wrote a administrative directive
about the technique I was using and it went out worldwide. I was very
proud of that. [laughs]
B: But at this point, I still want to interject for the benefit of
anyone who is reading this transcript, and hasnít seen the letter that
will accompany this transcript... a ďletterĒ makes it sound like a
little letter of a couple of pages that you write on a piece of
notepaper and put in an envelope.
This is a ten thousand word major presentation, and as somebody who
writes myself and sometimes I think, well Iím going to write a few
paragraphs here, and it ends up being huge. What was your experience
when you wrote it? Did you, just like you turned on the tap and then it
just flowed? Did it come out in one go or did you have to work on it for
D: One go.
B: One go. Because what many people seem to have experienced in reading
that letter is that it wasnít only a presentation of clarifying,
de-confusing, information, but it was actually inspiring in itself. It
contained something between the lines, between the words.
This was what I felt when I read it, and this wasnít even there at the
time. This was many years later, and I thought, my God, you know. This
is before I met you.
That letter had an energy and spirit of its own like a rolling snowball,
just rolling, rolling, rolling, that people seemed to have been
inspired, that they felt drawn to copy it and send it to somebody else,
and then they copied it, and there are copies of copies of copies.
You couldnít stop this thing because the spirit with which you imbued it
seemed to be picked up by the people who received the letters. Would you
say thatís accurate?
D: Oh yeah. After that, my life became trying to deal with all the mail.
Just about the only places I didnít get mail from in the world was the
Far East and the Iron Curtain, you know, the communist countries. But I
actually did get some mail from Russia. Every western country I got a
lot of mail from.
K: So, you had a disguise, you had a post box, you mailed the letter. In
a sense, were you continuing your normal life not disguised, and then
youíd go in and pick up your mail, in your disguise, I assume?
K: But no one ever found out, or traced you, or followed you.
D: No, but they tried.
K: Did they have suspicion?
D: No. They tried, they really tried. I was never questioned. They
wouldnít have known it was me when they cased the PO Box.
Seedy types frequented that mailbox center through the doors, which you
had to get through first with ID. Iíd thoroughly made sure with the
owner that he would never reveal whose mail I was picking up, if someone
came in afterwards and tried to bribe him to tell, which they DID - he
Of course, he thought I was hiding due to illegal pornography issues and
that would have affected his illegal business to reveal my identity. I
was dressed as a seedy, gay man. So that meant the owner of the business
was not bribable, and thatís what Iíd thought out beforehand, and why I
had chosen such a bizarre setting.
He had hundreds of mailboxes. The Church wouldnít have any way of
knowing when people went in the building who was going to pick up Dane
Topsí mail. I knew that it was a safe bet beforehand because I was going
to put a return address. I knew they were going to watch the place and
look for Dane Tops, even if it only reached the original 20 or 30 people
I sent it out to.
I didnít how hard they tried to find me and how much money they spent to
do it until later when I started hearing inside info about the search
for Dane Tops.
K: How much later was that?
D: Well, I was still in the main organization and could go in and out as
I pleased, and discuss the terrible letter with others, and see what
they were going to do about this instigator! [laughs]
I still kept going to these clandestine illegal meetings too, and
[laughs] I was getting all this mail coming in from around the world,
and at these meetings, they started acknowledging Dane Tops and
applauding. I was flabbergasted the first time I had to stand up and
toast and applaud myself along with the others.
Some of the people in the meetings had written to me in private. Thereíd
be a meeting of 50 of these people that felt more power now because of
the letter and they were all talking about the letter for many months,
you know, and theyíd start praising Dane Tops, and I would stand right
there toasting myself along with them - because it would have been weird
if I didnít.
Theyíd toast about all the copies of it that were going all around the
world and there would be stacks of printed letters for people to take
and send out to others. I was astonished. I was just there as my real
self, listening to all this.
K: So, how many pages was the letter?
B: It runs to about ten thousand words. If you print that out, thatís
what? I mean, itís a big piece.
K: I donít understand numbers like that. How many pages?
B: I would say about 20 or 30 pages. Is that about right? It was quite a
lot, you know.
D: It didnít seem long to me.
K: I know that this is a detail, but was it typed?
D: I did it with a typewriter. And then I got rid of the typewriter,
because I didnít want it to be traced.
B: And then you signed it at the bottom, and there was this fascinating
little subplot that people were trying to decipher this extraordinary
Dís friend: Itís still on the net. Itís still going on. There are still
arguments about it still going on: Who did it? Who was it?
B: So, a trivial question: Where did that name come from? What a strange
name. Itís very memorable. But where did that come from?
D: I donít know. It just came out of me, and I signed it.
K: So you mailed it out, you sent it out, and at that point, how many
days before you started getting any reaction whatsoever back to you?
K: One? How?
D: I didnít go to the PO Box for a week, but letters had been coming in
all week from the day after it was sent. Someone hand carried an answer
to the mailbox to get it there immediately, and then I just received
more and more and more mail from all over LA and the US, and then the
K: And when people wrote to you, what were they saying?
D: Thank God somebodyís written this. Youíre right, Iím free...
K: Now, you didnít write back to those people, did you?
D: I wrote back to a lot of people.
K: As Dane Tops?
D: Mm hm. I wrote back to hundreds of people. There were thousands of
K: And with the return address at the same PO Box?
D: Yes, I kept up the disguise and the license plate and the whole
persona. There were some people I had quite a bit of correspondence
B: But you said you got thousands of replies.
D: Oh, many thousands. For at least a year or two. I donít know how
B: Itís very interesting for us in the age of e-mails to actually... I
mean, thousands of physical letters is quite something. And also of
course thereís a time delay before these things get physically
photocopied and then sent out in the mail across the world.
And I remember, for instance, reading the report, I think it was from
one of the European countries, that the Dane Tops letter reached them
the next year, like a steamship, you know. Really very funny, this thing
was kind of gradually moving around the world.
And in todayís
terminology, it went viral.
D: I never sent it to anybody but the original LA list. I never sent it
to anybody but that, so the rest of it was from those original people
K: And did Hubbard ever read it?
D: By that time you couldnít get to him, but I had hope that it would. I
was trying to get to him because my small group had devised techniques
that we believed we could undo what was happening to Hubbard, what was
the matter, why his technology got stopped at a certain place.
We believed we could repair what had happened to him, what was stopping
him. But we couldnít get to him because he was already completely
quarantined. He was out in the desert.
So, the children would never give
him that letter, even if an adult gave it to them to deliver it.
K: But if you go out of body, you can communicate with him. Didnít
people think that they could do that? Werenít they getting reports back,
and so on?
D: By the í80s, these skills were deteriorating. And were never
developed to full mutual telepathy as they needed to be. It would have
certainly helped us more now with the ET problems.
K: But the heads that were Ė by that word meaning you said there were
heads, you know, the heads that ran the organization, which were then
basically taken down on some level. Okay?
K: But those people are still individuals and theyíre still going to
try, arenít they, to communicate with him? Go out of body?
D: I think a lot of tried, and we knew the main person Ė a fellow named
David Mayo who was the last known consultant of Ron Hubbard at the time,
the last one who was working on technology with Ron.
They developed the last major techniques together that Ron worked on.
David was brought in because Ron was sick as a dog and had cancer on his
face. The last piece of tech developed was an effort to save Ronís life,
and David was as much a part of developing it as Ron or even more.
It was called New Era Dianetics for OTs, its technical name. Or
short. We found out directly from David Mayo about the condition Ron
Hubbard was in - which was so very poor at that time, with a growth on
Ron was already a sick prisoner in his own situation, with child
vultures waiting for him to die so they could take over. Top executives
were made prisoners too, like a hard labor camp, and they couldnít get
out. Again the best of the best made into slaves.
Sort of like the Chinese Cultural Revolution, where you murder the
greatest in your county. Take down the artists, the inventors, and the
most educated. People in the Church were subdued and horrified and
couldnít believe it was all happening. Totally betrayed.
For years the government disinfo campaign continued until now. Hubbard
is thoroughly maligned in public and made to look like a charlatan and a
lying thief and criminal who was out to make money in a giant scam. And
of course that IS what the Church had become. Pretty ironic.
So there were people that tried to contact him, but his abilities were
impaired and so were those of others, total intimidation and fear of
being kicked out.
K: Okay, so just to tie this up: you wrote the letter, you sent it out,
and you got the reaction. The organization had already started
crumbling, and then could you talk about what you think the reaction to
the letter, how that sort of exacerbated any crumbling of the
D: Well it totally did, and from then on out that letter was used by
each sector that left. It was very much like Martin Luther and the
It was like that. It was a huge organization, and it was worldwide. It
was even in the communist countries, and it was hard for Scientology to
get into the communist countries, just like it is for Christians. It was
not an appropriate philosophy for communists.
But it was like a
worldwide schism with people leaving in droves.
K: So people kind of used that as a manifesto, in a sense?
D: Yeah. Exactly. They used it as their manifesto, and they left the
organization with the concept that they were going to carry on the
techniques, the part of truth that they had of it. And they tried, but
it mostly did not carry on.
People were affected by all the evilness attributed to Hubbard in a
giant campaign financed by black ops. They actually paid some
Scientologists to write disinfo, and paid others to shut up.
But my highest wish was not that everyone leave, but that they would en
masse demand justice and in numbers break down the walls that protected
those who were abusing power and let us GET to Ron directly. That step
So the letter was used not to create a revolution of redress out of
justified rage, but an exodus. People were already too beaten, too
hopeless, sort of like the USA is today. They did NOT get the point of
the letter and look for the Third Party at all. The people blamed Ron
Hubbard and personally felt betrayed by him. Thatís exactly what the
government wanted. The power in the organization was lost when so many
The government had to continue to malign and discredit the founder SO
THAT the techniques were not carried on in their purest forms. Everyone
was manipulated to feel completely betrayed by Hubbard for the
government operation to be successful.
We were chicken, and were helpless to organize, confront, and tear down
city hall. I and others looked within the organization for the Third
Party. We never hunted down and found the Third Party. The third party
was the black ops government of the USA. They took it down and now they
own it. Itís run by ego and power now.
In public, Ron was more and more made to look as if all he was doing was
stealing money, and that he was a total quack. His discoveries were
maligned and within a few years, even the people who were proponents
felt so personally betrayed by Ron and blamed him so badly that they no
longer practiced the techniques with as much care.
Slanderous books were written about Hubbard. The government bought off
the whistleblowers within the organization who were trying to openly
expose nefarious activities.
Individual loners came out and tried to get to the bottom of the
corruption and expose it, but they never found the Third Party. The
Church paid them big sums to shut up and never speak in public.
A few people I know actually went berserk, some of the highest most
experienced people just lost their minds over it all and bought the bag
about Ron, felt utterly disillusioned about the human race even.
We were in it to save the fate of the planet, the very fate Ron
predicted that weíre facing right now, and so the people felt that Ron
had betrayed the planet and all mankind and that it was all a sham that
we were taken and a part of it.
The government did a massive campaign against him and it all worked. The
full original techniques are no longer really employed, except in
comparatively small so-called splinter groups, not the way it was in the
50s when it was a giant wave, a giant movement.
Itís not an organization that can deal with what happening on the
planet... you end up with all these
hyperdimensional entities Ė and ETs,
the organization canít do it.
We didnít evolve large numbers of highly
capable people who have real power to go up against the things weíre
Of course, there are a few, very capable people indeed, mostly operating
very quietly and effectively and without any fuss, and they are getting
things done. But in numbers, we even now could really still count, even
without super abilities individually.
We still could win with certain basic truths and skill-sets. There are
some organizations that are excellent.
But not enough of them yet.
B: Iíve never actually seen anyone levitate, but Iíd say thatís a magic
trick, and maybe it doesnít really matter.
D: Itís not a ďmagic trickĒ - and it does matter! These kinds of things
matter, to be able to do those things, to read minds. The ETs have
abilities like that as a matter of course, and we can also.
B: Well actually, the most powerful people I know can be invisible about
all of this and theyíre changing conditions because theyíre operating at
a nonphysical level. But, you know...
D: I know.
B: Okay. There are techniques that are certainly a form of abuse, but I
think this isnít a failed experiment, and I want to let you know this
D: Iím very aware of what youíre talking about. I mean, my friend here,
he knows Captain Bill Robertson, heís trained in Billís techniques, and
he knows the people who deliver it. So Iím familiar.
But when I say itís failed I mean that there was an inspired worldwide
movement, and that was destroyed.
The real thing that was lost is the progressive ability to face larger
and larger forces and manifestations of energies, and how to actually
get a spiritual energy-entity to Ė independent of their body and
everything else Ė to manifest a larger and larger power, so much so that
they are themselves are the equivalent and equal of these
hyper-dimensional entities, but positive ones. We could do more good
with large numbers of us.
The ability... the techniques of manifesting in such massive ways are
not utilized and sought after and the techniques that my small group
discovered are not utilized and are not out there. Just like all the
techniques of your organization are not utilized in large enough venues,
more people, in other words, a sense of an Earth-Mission like we once
When the Dane Tops letter came out, I had correspondence with people
where I hinted at some of the things my small group was doing and we
were offered full support. We were offered a castle in Scotland by a guy
named Robin Scott; he later felt betrayed, like so many others.
But at that time, after the letter got to Europe, he offered full
support to my small group to carry on with the work that we were doing
because I said a few things in some of these private letters that
interested and excited him.
Well, today, all those people would be highly biased over any claims.
The sense of betrayal after so much trust of Ron ruined people. Bill
Robertson was not betrayed openly. But on some level he had to have been
very upset. He and Ron were close friends.
Who knows, if his techniques were proving effective, the government
would want to take Bill Robertson down too.
So Iím just saying itís not that there arenít great techniques still in
use and thereís some splinter groups, like Captain Bill Ė who founded
one of the best splinter groups, I believe. If Iíd known him, I believe
he would have incorporated what our little group was doing, or we would
have incorporated him.
But the real wealth of the subject is no longer flowing out, exploding
into the world. The death toll thatís about to be extracted from our
planet is imminent and we as a planet are appallingly ignorant.
It would not have been so if the mission that Ron Hubbard was doing
succeeded. We were a brave and emotionally powerful bunch. We were a
passionate purpose on fire.
B: It hasnít happened yet. I know people who are working on this right
as weíre talking. I mean, the gameís not over.
D: No, itís not.
B: It happens at every level.
D: Thatís true.
B: And there are all kinds of people who are working on this stuff,
using every kind of technique you can name. I donít care if someone
stands on their head in the corner and meditates and is sure theyíre
helping. Maybe they are. I donít know. Thatís cool with me.
K: We donít think we need to go under those headings. I think their work
is still being done.
D: Itís not only still being done, but there are many, many techniques
that have come up and are being employed. What is still being employed
in the subject of Scientology is a piece of the whole of mankind
discovering who and what it is.
K: Itís not a cohesive organization, is what youíre saying. The
cohesiveness of the organization doesnít exist. The techniques exist,
and theyíre being practiced in all different ways and forms and
D: There are so many isms and things that came out of Scientology.
Regression. Rebirthing came out of it, Primal Scream, Werner Erhardís
est came out of it, Landmark came out of it,
NXIVM came out of it and
NXIVM is just fabulous, improving on some things in Scientology in
several important ways.
Iíve done them all and seen what people did with Hubbardís stuff. It
goes on and on, all the stuff that came out of the original discoveries
that Ron Hubbard started. Itís legion. His work is everywhere. Few
people know that so much of it came from him.
You know, what I know now is that there are so many levels of whatís
true and you can go up in any column of that truth and once you reach a
height in any one column you feel: I have the truth.
And usually youíre so high up that you think youíve got it all because
the truth you see would solve it all you can just see how it will. But
then, thereís someone else that has a different perspective and they
have a great truth too, but within a different column of the whole.
Thatís where we have trouble when we go up the truth ladder ourselves
really high into understanding so profound it seems you have all the
answers for the world.
Then, on this very high level, there may be a different perspective and
itís an equal level of truth. People who reach the top of a column of a
particular truth are sure IT is the one - and thatís a trap. I see so
many of these high levels of truth having sprung up in the world trying
to get through for the masses to utilize, like whatever ETs tried to get
through to me, I was given directions on one column of truth.
And part of the knowledge within that column included THAT there are
similar equal truths that have tried to get through to many other people
in different ways. We reach truth and we want to share it, all trying to
give to each other what we see.
Different techniques or different methods. It may just be meditation.
But you donít really know there are always truths equally true to the
one you see. Itís a trap to not know that. The whole is all of them,
even opposing ones.
Understanding a full dichotomy is a basic in understanding the structure
of life. But equal truths are not necessarily opposing, theyíre also
just variations on a theme or different themes, equally valid in the
entire fabric of life.
K: Well, I did the same thing.
K: On my own, and it wasnít like that at all.
D: It doesnít have to be anyone elseís way. And it actually isnít the
same way I went. Scientology was just something different, a different
method of getting there, and it doesnít necessarily offer the same
abilities as other things. At its best, it is not a ďwayĒ, but a
technique to release an individualís unique path, each one different
from every other one.
K: There are many roads.
D: Many roads. Many, many roads.
K: And I think we could leave it at that rather than get this into any
kind of divisive...
D: Thatís the biggest sickness, is I have the way.
K: Yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, thank you so very much for telling us your
story. We need to talk about how we might put this story out.
B: But just a moment, though - because I know that you gave this a very
great deal of thought before you came on here. Are there more places you
want to go with this story? Because we might not know what those places
are that you have in mind. Have you finished? Maybe you havenít!
D: I believe Ron Hubbard had the most dangerous information of anybody
in this century, and for a time was a major target and enemy of
Illuminati. More resources were put into taking him down and his
knowledge out of the public domain and using it for their destructive
purposes than any other fight that they had at that time Ė I believe he
was their worst fight of the day, as far as a human threat.
They wanted his knowledge and they wanted to take him out. They won in
the 80s, after a 25 year fight.
People do not know what they are, and just telling them doesnít work.
How to manifest yourself in knowing the immortal being you are with your
memory intact is what Hubbard tried to impart.
It was a real attempt.
B: I understand. I remember something that... You may know the quote and
reference better than me, but I remember that Hubbard talked about what
I believe he referred to as the Shades of Night.
And the Shades of Night were falling, and that as we became more
technologically capable, that technology could be used to free man or to
And there was an opportunity, a window of opportunity, as
the Shades of Night were falling, to use this technology to free man
before the forces of darkness got there first.
B: Now, this is entirely is my paraphrase. Can you say something to
D: He knew the technical and philosophical elements being introduced on
Earth from his own memory, and the verified similar memories of others.
He labeled these technologies with his own labels.
He knew about the
forces to use technology for evil, and he knew that they were gaining
more and more power, and he was trying to wake people up in time. He
talked about it in these types of metaphorical terms.
K: And these are all the same kinds of things that weíre talking about
D: Absolutely. Itís what Camelot is talking about, only he was in the
1950s and 60s.
K: Right. And this is part of the reason why you were so attracted to
Camelot, and a long time ago you got very involved with us. But in
essence, he was talking about
the ETs behind The Powers-That-Be.
D: Right. Our real history. He was talking about the techniques of mind
control, and how it was done. And he was talking about the basics of how
the mind works, that the mind can be healed, and that you are able to
gain your healed mind back: how to do it, and the programs for recovery
were the courses and procedures in Scientology.
The super-soldiers could
make some use of it for their own restoration.
B: And the thing that Iíd like to say on record on this transcript - and
Iíd like to ask for you too - is that, for instance, we have just come
from the Los Angeles Awake and Aware conference where we heard testimony
from Duncan OíFinioan and David Corso on record and quite a number of
people were part of that program, the
MK ULTRA program, off record, who
have been extensively Ė in the psychology terminology Ė implanted, not
physically but psychically.
D: Itís physically too. That stuff under Duncanís fingernails with
electricity... The Bourne Identity scenario. Thatís classic implant
B: Right. But itís the psychic implants that you canít extract with a
pair of pliers. Thatís the stuff that you need extra, very refined
techniques, to get to the bottom of.
D: Right. But you have to undo the electrical charge to do it. The
implant is simultaneous. Pain plus unconsciousness plus command. Thatís
the formula. Itís all in the basic book from 1950.
B: I understand that. We heard Duncan OíFinioan talking on stage... We
heard him say in response to a question, that when a therapist tried to
work with him, one of his alternate personalities that his colleagues
had nicknamed The Berserker actually became triggered and he tried to
kill the therapist. And that was the end of that.
You told me off record, and Iíd like for you to say this again, that
Scientology techniques, properly applied, could actually handle that
entire situation without any danger or risk and with a guarantee of a
good outcome. And I wonder if you could state this, because a lot of
those people will hear this. Itís a very, very important statement to
D: The techniques, I believe, came from the research that Hubbard did.
But then you have to find an expert practitioner or develop it for each
other in tandem. The advanced techniques are the most basic techniques -
certainly not in the Church anymore, so one has to know where to go to
get that kind of assistance, and yes, how to do it is in the original
research that came out of L. Ron Hubbard.
There are techniques that are known that can fully reverse the situation
of a super-soldier, and it does require commitment, and time to do it,
and it can be done, and they havenít been known before Ron Hubbard.
And I believe the techniques done to make a super-soldier, they can be
reversed. You know of
Cathy OíBrien? The first person to help her when
she escaped was a Scientologist who took her in, a friend of mine.
Cathy had her memory restored by a number of techniques, and not only by
him. Thatís remarkable. There are no others of her ilk with restored
memory like she has. She was implanted severely. From childhood -
The super-soldiers should get together with the White House models and
examine their mind control programs. Would be a great joint project!
Invite Cathy OíBrien to the super-soldier convention.
K: We might see whether youíre in danger from releasing this interview.
D: It was the organization that used their money and resources to find
me. The only danger is still the truth about who and what we humans are,
the fact that our history can be known, and that we can become cognizant
of what our history really is in this universe and whatís happening on
this planet, and the fact that itís a prison planet, but we are
infinitely powerful and IF the secrets were revealed we could beat it.
These are the secrets that Iím verifying, thatís already come out in
Camelot. Its important to understand how brainwashing is really working
and being utilized.
K: There are other people that we can talk to to get more information
about that. There are some people we want to talk to about that.
K: But thank you. I think thatís very good.
B: Was there anything else that you wanted to add in there that you
havenít said, even something that can be inserted? Was there anything
that you came with on your notes that you didnít get a chance to say?
D: I think that if anybody becomes interested in the subject now because
of this, should do whatever they can to find original works of Ron
Hubbard, not the altered versions that are now sold and used and to find
people that know those techniques from the í50s. Thatís where the most
valuable stuff is. Donít buy rewrites of their original books, which
they have done.
B: Okay. For the benefit of the technical people, what specific
techniques would be on your list?
D: Okay, itís a sequence. Read
Dianetics, a Modern Science of Mental Health. That was the first book. Scientologists call it Book One.
Two people can team up and apply the techniques in there on each other.
You also want to go through this lifetimeís physical trauma in such a
way that the ridges of stuck energy in the body release.
And the main thing that has been taken away from the Church is letting
that kind of energy really manifest. Everything in the Church become
mental, but ďintellectualĒ doesnít cut the mustard of deep energy
ďUnderstandingĒ doesnít move mountains of negative energies. Leverage
does, and physical reversal, and that means applied skills. The
super-soldiers could read and utilize that book, if theyíre
B: I was only asking that question because you were talking about 1950s
processes, and I just wondered if you had some specific processes in
D: The book is the start. You can go a long way with it.
D: But the basics of whatís ultimately possible, Iíd say one of the best
things to listen to are
The Philadelphia Doctorate Course tapes.
D: Have you ever heard them?
B: Iíve listened to them all the way through.
D: Itís all Ron Hubbardís stuff.
B: Yeah. Where my question is really going here, I mean this isnít
necessarily going to be in the transcript, but, for instance, for any of
Ronís Org [the splinter group that Bill Robertson founded] trained
auditors and associates listening to this, what is it that youíre
pointing out that you donít think theyíre doing that they should be
doing for training or practice or drill that theyíre not doing?
you donít have an answer offhand, but it might be interesting if you
could specify that.
D: There are things about entities that I havenít seen fully addressed.
I believe thereís a blueprint for human beings that was installed in us
that whatever life form youíre in, whether youíre a human being or a
different kind of life form, it has a certain structure
And that structure is installed, and that structure means that if you go
have a life as one of these kind of life forms then there are secrets of
that life form, there is a spiritual structure of each life form, not
ONLY the physical DNA structure, and you can go much further as a
spiritual being when you become intimate with these spiritual installed
structures of each life form.
This is the
key to understanding ETs. We are ETs to someone else too,
you know, but youíre still attached to that life form youíre using at
the time, because you donít really understand the structure Ė you canít
really get free from it.
And this is a part of the research I havenít seen done anywhere, because
you get to the point of understanding yourself as a infinite spiritual
being, and realize you ARE your soul and you do not die, BUT you are
still trapped to a degree.
But start with Dianetics. Thatís the basic.
[Pause] Bill, answering that question is like trying to tell you
something in a capsule. But itís actually what weíve been trying to
share with you since we met you, why we wanted you to come and spend a
week or two or five days with us.
Weíve never been able to make it
happen, and the offerís still open for you to visit us and let us share
more with you.
B: Well, sure. I mean, the problem there, of course, is Iím not a
technical person; Iím not even an auditor - just a solo auditor. My job
here is different, so itís a way of creating enough of a
curiosity-mystery-sandwich-hook to get people to ask the right
D: Okay. Iím not talking about sharing it technically with you, but
applying it directly to you. For those purposes we also have the
conditions below Confusion and we have them in a way that I couldÖ What
we have is very interesting to most people that were brought up in that
discipline, and thatís something that could be shared. It could be
B: Okay. I think we can actually boil this down into something that will
end up looking like a pretty decent transcript. Weíve had a lot of
success before with converting audio interviews that have been really
quite broken up, with lots of breaks and interruptions, into something
that actually reads very fluently.
D: I was very moved by
Alex Collier, were you?
B: Oh yeah. A wonderful man.
D: Iím very moved by Alex, and I thought: Wow, if thatís a by-pass, you
know, if we could make a connection and receive a mentorship at this
stage that might not be a bad thing at all to make that connection.
D: I went up to him and I said: Would you assist us? And he said: Yes.
Iíll meet you halfway.
I thought that it would be great to see if he could pull some people
that are interested in that, in having some mentorships of that nature,
because it would be mentorship about how to get along in this part of
the galaxy and what we might do to give ourselves a better chance here
B: Itís a fascinating conversation. Iím sure itís already happening. I
D: As a result of Alexís message?
B: No. Itís been happening for years.
D: Sure. But I mean, he had a very specific message that the Andromedans
wanted him to deliver, like...
B: Yes. Itís like we step up the program, but... Iíve talked on record
now about my own strange ET experiences 25 years ago and Iím sure Iíve
been mentored all the time. What am I doing here right now? What are we
doing talking to each other?
D: Right, right, right. Why are we, who are we together?
B: Exactly. And so I think that with that encouragement, that support,
that catalysis, that there are unseen hands. I mean of us, everything
that weíve experienced, how it was that Camelot came together.
I mean, this whole game that Iím on here started three days after I
finished the Games Master Course, you know. Did you know that? Camelot
is a product of the Games Master Course. Absolutely. I spent 18 months
doing the Games Master Course and then... bang.
D: And hereís the game! You got the game! [laughs]
B: Of course, absolutely. This whole thing from my perspective is a kind
of Games Master Project.
D: Isnít that incredible?
B: I mean, Iíve said to people very quietly from time to time that if
you want to know what the Games Master Course does or can do, look at
D: Itís Camelot! Wow.
B: So this is a product of the Bridge. I mean, that needs to be
understood very carefully, very subtly, because Iím not kind of
saying... You know, this isnít a me-me, ego-ego thing. This has nothing
to do with that. Everyoneís got their own process, and Kerryís come to
that independently, but youíve got to see the whole thing as a whole.
Itís got to do with the nature of responsibility. Iím responsible for
everything, but so are you.
B: So is everybody, and so the whole thing overlaps and it builds
B: But I know that I wouldnít be doing what Iím doing without the
journey over the Bridge and so for me thereís nothing ineffective about
what happened after the Church split apart. I was never in the Church
and I only found the subject in 1984 with one of the splinter groups in
There are miracles happening all over the place, and this is a
manifestation of one of them.
D: I think I misspoke on this concept. Iím comparing it to what Hubbard
wanted to do, not to the fact there arenít miracles that came out of
what Hubbard did. There were many, many people that went on to manifest
extraordinary things, like
Bill Robertson, but compared to clearing the
planet, that dream was busted.
B: Yes. I think my understanding - which is a conversation we should
take offline - is that thereís something different happening now. There
are a lot of things that are happening off-planet. You know, you havenít
talked about the Galactic Patrol.
B: You havenít talked about how come all these people are suddenly here
in this lifetime, all working together doing this thing, you know?
B: What is it to be missionaries, and what does that mean? And why is it
that when the Sea Org members were asked to sign a billion-year
contract, they said Okay, no problem. What did that mean?
B: And what is that symbolic of?
D: Yeah. Like weíve already signed one. This is just a reaffirmation of
what weíre already doing. [laughs]
B: Exactly. Thatís right. And many recent observers have commented on
the fact that thereís this very huge influx of people whoíve come here
with a very strong sense of mission, and these donít seem to be ordinary
These seem to be people with much enhanced abilities, but just because
theyíre here on this planet, they need to have everything because you
arrive here and you canít remember a damn thing, and you donít know what
you should be doing, and youíre all confused. I mean, it wasnít like
what we call it, and so all of that has to be repaired.
But most of the missionaries here have never actually done any work in
Scientology. Thatís an assist program. Itís like a specific assist
program to rehabilitate certain abilities. Some people just say, Well,
to hell with it. Iíll just do my job anyway.
D: Right, like Kerry. Absolutely. And some people are coming in with
such awareness and ability that, you know... At the time in the í50s
there werenít people like that, you know. You went through a program to
get that, you didnít come in and have it.
Dís friend: Whatís her name, the third person in your little group?
D: I actually donít feel cool saying the third personís name because she
so much doesnít want that. They attacked her... they never attacked
me... they attacked my friend here too, but with her it was the kind
where they go through the trash and go to the house and knock over and
over for months and years on the door, lots of that kind of stuff, and
she got scared and she left town and she stopped delivering.
B: When did that happen?
D: Ten years ago.
B: Oh, as recently as that?
D: Oh yeah, the Church kept going after her. She was delivering for a
while in a small way. She was well-known in the organization and so, you
know, the harassment just didnít stop. They just wanted her to stop
You know, one thing I didnít talk about is I know how all the upper
level materials even got out in the public. I know who did it. I know
how the Class Eight tapes got out into broad public domain.
B: Youíre talking about... whatís his name?
D: Larry West?
B: Larry West, yes.
D: I know who gave him the stuff.
B: But some of that stuff has been altered, hasnít it?
D: Oh yeah, everythingís been altered. Thereís nothing that doesnít get
touched. because every person wants to be creative and put their own
touch on it. But even the Class Eight tapes, things like this, when this
all happened, this was done after Dane Tops, that this stuff came out.
But I know who got it out, and how they got the Class Eight tapes out,
and how it was masterminded because that material was much protected Ė
you couldnít get to that. Iíll tell you the operation sometime if you
want to hear it.
It was really, really incredible, but when that material started coming
out the confidential veil was broken for the Church to keep their
B: Okay. That was like the second stage of this whole... exodus.
D: Within three years after the Dane Tops letter, people were empowered
to go on their own, because they could get original material to use to
help people that had all been locked up. No one would have ever dreamed
of using it outside the confidential confines and inner holy sanctums.
D: IĎll put it that way. Many of the stellar people went on their own,
and then they failed and believed they had realized it was all a wash,
instead of that they were manipulated to quit and discredit all of it.
But, the thing Ron Hubbard said about it, that itís not going to hold
together without the organization, that was true. Everybody wants to be
an individual. And unfortunately, that sometimes means changing
something that doesnít need changing, when it just needs to be applied
B: Okay. Agreed. Thereís a lot of individuality in the alternative
media, certainly. Itís amazing how people with similar purposes often
donít work together well.
D: You bet.
B: Letís call that a wrap. Kerry, do you have anything else here before
K: No. This has been fascinating. Really fabulous.
B: Absolutely. Thank you so much. We could talk for a long time more,
but this has been quite an amazing story. A lot of people will be new to
this and will be fairly mind-blown by it all. Theyíll have to go through
it several times!
D: [Laughs] Probably.
B: Okay. Thank you again. Take good care of yourself. Still standing
after all these years.
Thatís a wonderful example.