John Lear: He’s driving home by the time I
get to Los Angeles and get my cell phone.
I said: Bob?
He says: Where the hell are you?
And I said: Well, I accidentally got on the wrong airplane. I’m in Los
Angeles.
So that was the big laugh for about five years, that John Lear gets on
the wrong airplane.
Start of interview
Kerry: [laughing] OK. And with your ideas - and they’re pretty
cutting-edge basically - do your friends agree with you?
J: I don’t have any friends. [Kerry laughs, John laughs]
K: Come on, John. I don’t believe you. You’re one of the most charming
guys we’ve come across.
J: My good friend Bob Lazar thinks I am nuts. So...
K: Does he really?
J: Yeah. He told us at the birthday party.
K: And he works on UFOs, so ...
J: As a matter of fact, if you’ll reach behind you, I would like to read
his birthday present to me. It’s that cup that says “JL.”
K: All right.
J: Just hand it over here. [Kerry laughs] Now, Bob Lazar had this made
for me and this is my birthday present. Basically, what it is...
K: [laughs, hands cup to John] What does it say?
J: [reading cup and turning it toward camera] ... is the Periodic Table
of Elements. And the Periodic Table of 116 is “JL.” And it says it’s “a
human solid.” And the atomic mass is 256.89. And it has all the stuff
there [running finger around image on cup].
And then it says:
* Element: John Lear.
* Occurrence: Found primarily in Nevada. [Kerry laughs]
* Physical properties: JL is a rare and unstable element. It is best
known for its remarkable ability to resist common sense and facts.
[Kerry laughing]
* Applied liberally, JL has been known to improve the quality of lives.
It is also known to absorb great quantities of expensive substances. It
is one of the most powerful money-reducing agents known to man.
* Prolonged exposure to this element can cause severe physical, mental,
and financial damage.” [laughs; Bill and Kerry laughing off camera]
K: That’s great. [laughing] OK. And you told us off camera that Bob
Lazar has gone back in, working for the government.
J: Yeah, he works back at Los Alamos National Laboratories.
K: What’s he working on?
J: Have no idea. One of the things he told us is when he went back to
work they had a short chat with him [Kerry, Bill laugh]. And before they
gave him his clearance they said: Now Bob, you’re not going to cause us
any more problems, are you? And he said No.
K: Well, they basically threatened him to get him to come back in. Isn’t
that right? I mean, he was having all kinds of problems right before
that.
J: I... didn’t hear that part.
K: OK. But he’s been inside for about four years.
J: I think so.
K: OK. And you’re saying that it’s possible he might give interviews.
J: Yeah. Yeah, he did the Travel Channel a couple years ago. And just
the other day he did somebody else, you know. But it would be best that
you guys not mention my name. [Kerry laughs]. Just call him up out of
the blue, you know.
K: OK. But he’s your friend, right?
J: Yeah. Yeah, he’s a good friend. He came to my birthday party and it
was really great.
As I’ve told you... I used to have two wicker chairs here. In 1987 I
started talking about UFOs. I gave a lecture at the Spring Valley
Library. Well, it created such a ruckus here in Las Vegas! People were
calling, there were people wanting to interview me. I mean, it just
EXPLODED. And, of course, it disrupted my family here because people
were calling. Marilee eventually had my phone shut off. She took all my
UFO files. [Kerry laughs] I mean, it was bad.
And so, in 1988, a guy called. He said: My name is Gene Huff. I’m a real
estate appraiser and I’d like to get some of your tapes and stuff.
I said: Gene, I’m out of it. You know. It’s almost cost me my family.
I’m just not doing it.
He says: OK, well, you know, if you ever want to trade some tapes, I’ll
trade you a real estate appraisal for it.
And I said: Oh, wait a minute. Because, you know, I needed some money. I
said: I’ll tell you what. I’ll get you those tapes and you appraise my
house.
So he came over the day after that to do the measurements. Of course, he
had no idea it was 7,700 square feet! He’s complained ever since because
he had to do such a huge house for just a couple of tapes and some
information.
Well, anyway, when he came over he brought this guy named Bob Lazar, and
he introduced him to me. Bob was the guy holding the end of the
measuring tape.
And he said: Bob used to work at Los Alamos National Laboratories, and
he lives in town now and develops photos.
And so I said Great, you know.
So Gene and I were talking about UFOs and Bob was rolling his eyes. He
said: You guys are nuts. This could not be true. I worked at Los Alamos.
I had a “Q” clearance. If it’d been true, I woulda known about it, I did
enough snooping around there.
So he didn’t want to hear about any of this stuff.
So anyway, that was like in June of ’88. So over the next four or five
months, Gene and I and Bob exchanged information. And Bob, you know,
he... There was three or four things that pushed him over from “This is
totally ridiculous,” to “It might be true.” And one of them was, in
those days we knew about a secret facility at Los Alamos called YY-II,
and my information was that it was where they held aliens there. And
then there was something else. But anyway, Bob found out - Yeah, there
WAS YY-II. And yeah, it was WAY more classified than he could get in.
And there was like three or four things.
And anyway, in November, that was when Bob decided that: Well, you know,
I think I’ll see if I can get a job up at Area 51. So he called Dr.
Teller, who he knew from Los Alamos. And I think I was there when Bob
talked to him.
And Teller said: Do you want to work out here at Lawrence Livermore with
me, or there in Nevada?
And Bob said: I want to work at Groom Lake. [smiles broadly]
And so Teller said: Well OK, let me get back with you.
So then, Bob had three interviews down at EG&G, and he would come up
here after each interview. And I remember, after his second interview,
the first question was: Do you know John Lear? And: What do you think of
John Lear?
And Bob said: Yeah, I know ’im. And I think he sticks his nose into
places where it doesn’t belong. And Bob told me: What I DIDN’T tell them
was I ALSO like to stick my nose into places where it doesn’t belong.
[Kerry laughs].
So he got his third interview and he told us, you know, he aced them,
because they talked about really technical stuff. And he just laid it
out. And he said: I did a good job.
Anyway, the next thing I know it’s December 6th of 1988.
Bob comes, sits down, and he says: I saw a disk today.
And I’m writing out checks there, you know. I’m not paying attention. I
said: What?
He says: I saw a disk today.
And I...: A disk? Theirs or ours?
And he said: Theirs.
I said: You went to Groom Lake?
He said: Yeah.
And I said: What are you doing HERE? [Kerry laughs] I said: Obviously
they’re going to follow you. Why didn’t you just, you know, work there
for a while and then come and tell us what happened?
He says [Kerry laughing]: Because I’ve seen you take so much crap over
the past 6 months about this. I’m telling you it’s real. I saw it, I
touched it.
You know. And then we spent about two hours talking about stuff. And it
was just totally shocking, and...
K: OK. But tell us that story. I mean, we got it on the other tape. But
it’s just so much fun, where he sits down and says: John, you’ll never
know what it’s like ...
J: That was January. And he’d been up there two or three times, or four
or five. I don’t know how many. And I remember it was January, because
it was bitter cold and I had a short-sleeved shirt on like this [rubs
his bare arm].
And Bob comes in and sits there and, you know, he’s just ON. He’s LIT.
And he wants to talk about something. And we already knew we shouldn’t
talk in here. So we went out by the pool.
And Marilee’s coming this way and she says: What are you two doing? You
know? [laughs]
We’re going out to talk. You know. And she’s suspicious of ANYTHING
anyway, and so she doesn’t believe that for a second. But she lets us
go.
So we went out in the little back place by the stable. And I’m looking
at him, saying: WHAT? What? What?
And he said: John, you will never know what it’s like to see your first
alien.
I said [excited]: You SAW one? You saw one?
He said: Yeah.
I said: It couldn’t’ve been a doll? It couldn’t have been...
[He said]: No. It WAS one. [Kerry laughing].
And, you know, these days, you ask him that question, he says: “Well, I
don’t know. Coulda been a doll. They were doing all these weird stuff.”
K: Oh, yeah.
J: But THAT night, that’s EXACTLY what he said.
K: OK.
J: And I said: How’d it happen?
He says: Well, I was walking down the corridor. He said: I got a guard
on each side. And, he said, I walked by this door and there is like a
12-inch windowpane [gestures to indicate size of window]; it has wires
through it. And I looked through it and there’s two guys in lab coats
facing me. And an alien standing up talking to them.
Now, did I show you that picture?
K: I don’t think so.
J: ‘Cause he drew it for me.
K: Oh really!
J: Do you want me to get it?
K: Yeah. Absolutely.
J: [indicating papers on desk] These are a lot of stuff I kept from Bob.
[shows diagram] For instance, here’s how security clearance works. The
lowest clearance you can get is Top Secret. And then above that, there’s
28 levels of Top Secret Crypto. And then above that, there’s 10 levels.
Now, these aren’t the real names, except the top one is Majestic.
Now, each one of these are compartmentalized. So that you may have Top
Secret Crypto 25, but you don’t get to know ALL that information. All
you get to know is what you’re cleared for. In other words, when you get
Top Secret Crypto 25, somebody doesn’t come and tell you: This is ALL
the stuff that the guys in the Top Secret Crypto 25 get to know. It’s
compartmentalized.
So we had this to show that the President of the United States is, like,
Top Secret Crypto 17. He doesn’t need to know very much. He’s a
figurehead. He’s told what to do.
K: Right.
J: So he doesn’t really need to know all this. To my understanding, the
last President that was given any kind of a briefing was President
Nixon. Ford knew a little bit. Reagan knew a little bit. Of course, Bush
knew something because he was, you know, Director of the CIA. That
doesn’t mean they tell the Director of the CIA anything. He’s an
appointed office and they HATE appointees, so he knew that for other
reasons. But anyway this is how that chart worked.
[Picks up a cassette tape] These are the... When Bob decided NOT to go
back to work for the government, we took him into three regressive
hypnosis sessions. And they were with Lane Keck. And Lane was supposed
to be at my birthday party and I don’t remember why he didn’t come. Or
maybe he did come. I think he did come. We’ll see on that DVD.
But he did the regressions for Bob. And what we tried... It was
EXTREMELY interesting. The first one we didn’t get, because the tape
recorder broke, and Gene Huff has those on notes. But the SECOND one - I
have the second one - and that’s where we tried to pull the information
out. And I’ll tell you what here. Later, if you want... I have a
transcript of the second one, and I’ll let you read it. Because it’s
extremely interesting.
K: That would be great.
J: [shows a sketch on paper] This is when Bob was telling me how you
went forward and backward in time.
K: OK. I was going to ask you that. So Bob worked on time travel, didn’t
he?
J: He didn’t work on it. He was briefed on it. See, when he went up
there...
K: If he knew Teller, he must’ve... And he worked at Los Alamos.
J: He only knew Teller because he met him that day in front of Los
Alamos when Teller was giving his speech and Bob was on the cover of the
Los Alamos Monitor with his jet-car. And he walked up to Dr. Teller and
said: I’m the guy you’re reading about. And the doctor said: Oh, really
neat. And they had a little chat. But that’s the only place he knew him
from. He didn’t work WITH him. But he did work at Los Alamos and he did
listen to Teller talk.
K: OK. I see.
J: So Bob, when he went up to S-4, they said: You have to choose what
you want to do. You can’t have a little bit of it all. You have to
choose. You know, do you want to work on this or that. And Bob wanted to
work on reverse engineering the propulsion. That was his job. But he got
briefed on all this. And what he’s showing me here [close-up of drawing]
is how you go forward in time - which is just exerting a strong
gravitational pull. And how you go aft. And he started drawing it like
that, and then he put in a scribble. So anyway, these were the...
[Holds up next paper] Bob Lazar 1987. He was drawing me the different
shapes of vehicles that were at S-4. And this one [pointing], what he’s
doing here is he’s showing me one that had been hit by a projectile.
[going through papers] And when I first started showing Bob the pictures
of the Moon, and showing him stuff that was on there [looking through
papers]... You know, I would say: Look at this. Look at that, you know,
vapor, and this... and that. And he kind of looked at me real skeptical.
I was walking out the door of his home, and he says: You know, John, if
any of this stuff is true, I’m going to have to kill myself. [Kerry
laughs]
And so I said: You know, why don’t I get that on paper, Bob?
So [close-up of paper] I had him sign this to me. It says: I, Bob Lazar,
promise to kill myself is any of John’s Moon stuff is true. Signed Bob
Lazar, August 23rd, 1996. [Kerry laughs]
Well, what happened is, when I finally got somebody, you know... when I
ordered that photograph from NASA? You know, they sent me the negative.
You know? It was a 16 x 20 negative.
K: Right.
J: And it took me, you know, five or six years before the technology
got... even to Las Vegas, to make a positive of that size negative. So
when I got it, I took it over to Bob’s house and... [camera zooming in
on photo] There’s a little one right here. This is the first I got and I
took it over to Bob and he scanned it. And those are the scans that went
on ATS. And so up here [pointing to photo] – I’ll let you do a close-up
later – there’s obviously what looks like a parking garage.
So, Bob looks at it and looks at it and looks at it. And he says: Yeah.
He says: I’ve got to admit. That is not natural. That is something.
And so I said: You know, Bob, we’ve been friends for a long time, and I
know you are a man of your honor. And you have agreed that if any of my
Moon stuff was true, that you would kill yourself. [Kerry laughs].
And he says: Well, is there any way I can get out of it?
And I said: Yeah. Yeah, as a matter of fact, why don’t you just sign
this statement here? [Kerry laughs]
And [showing paper] this is August 5th, 1998. This is two years later.
It says: I, Bob Lazar, in return for not having to honor my commitment
to kill myself if any of John’s Moon stuff was true, do freely admit
that the object in the crater Copernicus on the Moon, saved as “apple
crate,” is a box, which I don’t know what it’s doing there. Signed, Bob
Lazar.
Now that’s the best I could get him to do.
[close-up of Moon photo] But that is the infamous parking garage on ATS
that I show everybody. And people say: No, I don’t see a parking garage.
But, I’ll show you the enlargements later. But anyway...
These are some more. [close-up of drawing] This is the original drawing
he did on how the anti-matter reactor worked. And this is how he showed
me the arches were in the...
K: And that was what year?
J: This is all between December of 1988 and March of 1989.
[shows paper] And these are the notes I kept: Meeting with Bob Lazar,
November 2nd, 1988, because I typed up this stuff.
K: I see. Now, did he draw an alien for you or not?
J: Yeah.
K: You got it there? Because we’d love to see that. [John looking
through papers]
J: I realize that we went to get this. [Pulls paper out of stack] Now,
the original is blue and I’m sure it’s here somewhere. But this is the
original drawing he made me. [close-up of sketch]: “Drawn by Bob Lazar,
January 1988. This scene is at S-4. Position of gray in relation to two
scientists in lab coats. Size, orientation and construction of window”
through which he saw scientists and a Gray.
So this is... We were sitting... He was scribbling all over. [Rotates
paper] This is the test site and where S-4 was. [pointing] This was the
length of the hangars, 360 feet and each bay was 40 feet long. [Rotates
paper again] This was how the saucer sat in the hangar. And this drawing
right here is the two... And this is what Bob drew. [pointing] These are
the two lab technicians. And that’s the little alien facing the other
way. He drew the door and he drew that wire going through the window. He
said he looked through that and saw those guys right there.
K: That’s great. Did he ever have any exposure, like communication with
them?
J: Yeah. Three times. At least three times.
K: Really?
J: I’ll just show this [holding another paper] because this is on the
back side of the piece of paper. This is Aurora. And this is the
airplane we have the cruises at 250,000 feet and goes Mach 12. And that
was in 1988. And this is what it looked like when he stepped down from
the Boeing 737... When he walked down the ramp this way, that thing was
parked towards him, so he was looking up the tail. And he said it was
absolutely enormous. He said there was two giant squares where the
exhaust was. And he said a man would look like a little doll, you know,
standing in those.
K: Wow.
Bill Ryan [off camera]: He’s looking at it from behind?
J: He’s looking at it from behind. Yeah.
K: Yeah.
J: So he doesn’t know exactly. He just assumed that that’s what it
looked like in plan view.
So anyway, the three times that he saw the alien was... The first time
was when they gave him the pine-smelling fluid. And what they did...
It’s really interesting. When Bob came in here the very first day and he
said, I saw a disk, I said... And he used to wear a ring. And I forget
which finger it was on.
I said: OK, now listen to me, Bob. They’re going to... they’re going to
give you some drugs to make you forget what you’re doing. So what I want
you to do is, when they take you in to give you the drugs, I want you to
take your ring of – subtly - and put it on your other hand. You won’t
remember, but when you come up to see me, I’ll see it and you’ll know
you’ve already taken the drug.
He said: They already did that today.
K: Oh wow.
J: I said: They did?
And he described this elaborate drug test of, you know, how they took a
needle and they put a rectangle on his - scratched a rectangle on his
arm - and then made lines like this [gestures criss-crossing lines on
his arm] and lines like that. And then they’d take stuff and put into
each little square like that.
And then they took him into a room. And he said the room was just like a
regular doctor’s office and a couch, and he lay on the couch. And he
said there was a screen blocking something, and he said he knew the
alien, the Gray, was behind it. And there was a military guy with an
M-16 and a doctor and a nurse.
And they had him drink the pine-smelling fluid. And he drank the cup.
And immediately he felt, you know, dizzy. And he described exactly what
he felt like. He said he felt like he was in a well that was 100 feet
deep, that his arms were 100 feet long, and he was just holding on to
the sides of the well, just barely with his fingertips. That’s what he
felt like.
He said then they started to read the clearance, the briefing of the
clearance, which he was being given. So they’d say, you know, they’d
read a sentence. And he’d say: And I understand that, you know, I am
being briefed. And at the end, the soldier would take the M-16 and poke
it into his stomach like that [makes gesture of being hit in stomach].
And he said it REALLY hurt. And at each different phase of the
clearance, the soldier would take the M-16 and poke it into his solar
plexus.
And so, in the tapes that Lane Keck did, when we were trying to get the
information out, you know... They told him a lot of really interesting
stuff, and when we would get to, you know, what’s going to happen in the
future, you know, he’d say: I’m not supposed to talk about that. And
then Lane would try to work around it with some subtlety. And Bob would
say: No I can’t. It hurts.
K: Oh my. Wow. Like a programming thing.
J: Right.
K: So, did he ever do the ring? The ring trick?
J: No, because he had already done it. He said they had already drugged
him.
K: But he had to keep going to work, so ...
J: See, the reason he quit was because when we got caught... You know,
he’d invite us up to see the flying saucer flights. On March 21st, 1989
- and I have that tape right here and I’ll show you; it’s only 9 minutes
long - we took that Celestron 8 [points to telescope] and we saw... You
know, he told us when it was going to fly. And me and Gene are right
there. And I focused in on it and I saw a flying saucer, you know? And
it was, you know, tilted about 40 degrees, and it was gold, and it had
this stuff radiating off it.
And I said: Quick, Gene, quick! Take a look! And as I stepped back, I
hooked my foot around the thing. So, that came up at the birthday party,
because everybody at the birthday party was supposed to tell a John Lear
story. [Kerry laughs] And that was Bob’s story.
K: OK, well, also the story about getting stopped on the road, and the
gun, and the car, and the cop...
J: Right. That was when the County Sheriff stopped us. And that was the
third time we got caught.
But the point of that story was that when they took him in the next
morning to Indian Springs - which is the center of the all the security
- and took him out of the car with a gun in his ear, they said: Now Bob,
when we gave you this clearance it meant you were not supposed to tell
a-l-l-l your friends about the flying saucers. Now, do you want to work
here or not?
And that’s when Bob was non-committal, because the last two flights he
had taken up to Groom Lake, he could remember walking up the steps and
walking down, but he couldn’t remember anything in between. And he said
he didn’t want to work on a program like that.
K: Well, what about the Tall Whites? Because, from what I understand,
Charles Hall talks about the Tall Whites being out at Indian Wells, that
area? Do you know anything about that?
J: No.
K: Bob ever talk about the Tall Whites?
J: Uh-uh. No. Only the Grays, and he only had the three times. The once
was with the pine-smelling fluid. And the once was seeing them in the
room. And then once when George Knapp hired Tavernetti to come up and do
the lie-detector test.
George rented a room at Caesar’s Palace and Bob and Gene Huff got there
early and they knew the room. And so they pull the door open. Gene
pulled the door open. Bob looked inside and he turned white and nearly
fainted, and he walked over and sat down in a chair. And Gene says: What
in the heck is the matter with you? And Bob said: I just had a
flash-back. He said: I remember talking with the Gray.
And what had happened is, when they opened the door, the way that
Tavernetti had set up... There wasn’t very much light. It was one single
table, with a chair on one side and a chair on the other side, and some
equipment there. It triggered this reaction of Bob when he was reading
the briefings and the Gray was across from him.
And it was such an over-whelming experience of when you first, you know,
are in the presence of a Gray, when, you know, you’re used to asking a
question [gestures words coming out of mouth], and then having somebody
respond. But when you’re talking to an alien, they pick it up from your
mind, and they’re answering before you can even get out of your mouth...
and it gets confusing. And it was just an almost overwhelming
experience. So, that was the other time that Bob had the...
K: Now, do you think he’ll go on camera with this stuff?
J: I doubt it. But, you know, you never know what he’s going to do.
Never know what he’s going to do. [Kerry laughs]
[John begins going through papers] So let me look through here. [Holds
page up] This is the page where we were trying to think of the guy he
worked with – Castroloni [sp?]. But I think we finally determined what
the guy’s name was. And George Knapp has it, but I don’t know what...
K: So is George Knapp working for the Agency?
J: No. George Knapp works for Channel 8. Oh, you mean under cover?
K: Yeah.
J: You know, I don’t know. George knows a lot of stuff. And he had me on
a couple months ago. And what he was doing was a story on Sandia.
Sandia’s the most secret – not the most secret – it’s THE secret base
here that replaced Groom Lake Area 51. And it’s out on the Paiute
Mesa... and I’ve got a map of it here.
They started building it in 1980 and finished it in 1987, so it’s now 20
years old. About, you know, four or five thousand people work out there.
I mean, it’s a HUGE underground base, absolutely enormous. I mean,
there’s great big cylinders of offices and stuff that go, you know, a
mile deep. And then out on the test site, there’s a couple of runways
with all new hangars there and everything. It’s just a MASSIVE
operation.
So when George went up there to film it, he couldn’t find it. But anyway
I’ll show you... As a matter of fact I have it here on DVD. I’ll show
you the exact thing that we did.
I told him that one of the interesting things was... How do we get the
people out there? They can’t DRIVE out there because it’s too far, can’t
have that many people on Highway 95 because we’ll be exposing that
stuff. We can’t put them on 737s because they’re already full now, you
know, and we can’t put on more airplanes going out there.
So what they did is, they built a high-speed train that goes from Sandia
down to Vegas. And what they did is they put the stops under two of the
major hotels. [laughs] So the guys just look like gamblers or, you know,
hotel guests walking in there. And they go in there, they open a door,
use a card key, and go down, you know, to the thing.
K: Oh... OK [laughs]
J: I mean, it’s great how they do that.
K: Which hotels? Do you know?
J: Yeah, but I’m not going to say.
K: [laughing] OK. That’s great. Have you ever taken the train?
J: [laughing] Nah.
K: You know where it is, you know ...
J: I’ve been meaning to go down there, you know. But I try to stay out
of trouble! [picks up magazine] Here’s the Los Alamos Monitor that Dr.
Teller was reading when Bob was... [shows photo of Bob with jet-car]
K: OK. Yeah. Great stuff.
J: Yeah, I’ve a friend, Jim Goodall, and he said: I’m coming down there.
We’re going to go up to the test site.
And I said: You know, I used to do that stuff, but I’m still alive, so,
you know, if it’s all the same to you, I don’t want to do it.
[shows another paper] Here’s three things that I wrote down that were
important. I came up with the speed of time. And Bob said... You know, I
told him what it was. And he said: That’s correct. But he said: Who
cares?
[pointing to list] And what I said was: The speed of time is directly
proportional to the amplitude of the gravitational flux. In other words,
the speed of time is dependent on gravity.
Then Bob told me: [pointing to items on list]
* It’s theorized that there is one black hole for every galaxy.
* It’s theorized that every black hole has its OWN galaxy.
* HIV - the protein coat is on the virus itself. And
* The recycle time of the gravity amplifier is 10 milliseconds.
Now, the HIV - have we talked about HIV?
K: No, but we can definitely go there.
J: AIDS was invented by a Navy surgeon named R. M. Donner. And when Bob
read the briefing up at S-4, one of the things that impressed him is
that in the paper... All the briefings he read were, you know, 50 to 100
pages, with a blue cover. And they were scattered on this table. And he
could take each one. And what it was, was that as he progressed his
clearance, these briefings – [lifts top portion of a stack of papers] -
Say this is one briefing. It would be stapled here. And as his clearance
progressed, you know, they would unstaple a few more pages.
But anyway, on the briefing of AIDS... and I have it; it’s probably in
here, because I wrote a whole thing on what he told us. It was
developed, you know, to get rid of a certain segment of... number of
humans.
But it was developed by R. M. Donner. And it has the exact cure for
AIDS. And it has to do with the cucumber Trichosanthes kirilowii, which
is only grown in China. We tried to get it out of China, on three
attempts. But - however they know, somebody knows - and each one had
been cooked, either by a microwave or something as it passed through
customs. So it’s impossible to get it out. But I’ll read you the exact
cure and how it works.
K: Well, we have a contact right now who says he worked on that - on
engineering the AIDS virus - in Africa.
J: Possible. But it wasn’t in Africa. It was here. It was released in
Africa. But it was built up at S-4.
So Bob and I looked for R. M. Donner. We found him. He lived in Santa
Fe. He was retired. And we went to see him several times, because Bob
then had the contract for the repairing the Alpha probes.
And what we used to do is, we used to DRIVE to Los Alamos from here. It
was a 16-hour drive. And Bob had a friend there. And it used to take us
like 24 hours to rebuild all these Alpha probes. There was like 300 of
them. And we’d clean them all up and then rewire them and then put the
aluminum tape on them. And then we’d drive back to Las Vegas.
K: What’s an Alpha probe?
J: They scan for radiation on the people that go in and work at Los
Alamos.
K: OK.
J: Bob had the contract. So we did that about every 6 weeks. So what
we’d do is, we’d try to... We knew where Donner worked, and we’d go
there; we missed him every time. And then we finally got his home
address and we went to his home. And we could never catch him home. Now
whether he was not answering the door, or whether he was not really
there, or whether we didn’t really have an address – I think we did – we
never met up with him.
Now, when Bob started to make some money on the photo business and the
Alpha probes, we actually went on the airline to go to Albuquerque, and
we’d rent a car to go up to Los Alamos. So this one day – and the same
things happened on this one day. And I told this in the John Lear
stories. I’m going to tell this on myself.
I have trouble recognizing Earth people. For some reason, I just can’t,
you know, if I haven’t known them for 25 years – and even if I DO know
them for 25 years – it’s hard for me to pick them out of a crowd.
So what we would do is, to go to Albuquerque, Bob would buy a ticket on
Southwest and I’d jump-seat with my airline ID. So one morning we get
ready to go. We’re leaving at 7 o’clock. And I go to the airport, and I
don’t want to get on the airplane unless he’s on it. And I walked up and
down all the passengers and looked very carefully. I couldn’t find Bob!
So I didn’t want to get on if he wasn’t there. And I couldn’t reach him
at home.
So when everybody got on, I asked the flight attendant, I said: Hey, I’m
the jump-seat, but I want to be sure a friend of mine... Could you
announce, ask Bob Lazar to ring his call button? Well of course what I’d
forgotten is, on this particular flight going to Albuquerque, that’s all
the Sandia and other guys that go on this flight. So when the flight
attendant went: Would Bob Lazar please ring his call button? - of course
the whole airplane, everybody starts laughing, ‘cause they think it’s a
joke! [laughing]
K: [laughing] That’s great!
J: So anyway, he rang his call button, I realized he was there, so I got
on the jump-seat and went to Albuquerque. We rented a car, drove up to
Los Alamos. And for some reason, this day, everything went perfect. I
mean we just slid through that thing in about 8 hours. And so we
realized that we could drive back, get on the airplane, and have dinner
at our favorite Italian restaurant called Parma’s. So we pack all this
stuff up and write the P.O. and we go tearing down the mountain from Los
Alamos to Albuquerque and down the freeway.
We screech into the rent-a-car place, jump right on the van that’s just
pulling out, get to the airport. Bob runs up, you know, and gives his
ticket. I run up, and sign my, you know, my jump-seat. Run in. They
close the door. I sit down. And I heard the captain say: Welcome to
Southwest Airlines 304 on our flight today to Los Angeles. And I
realized that I had run down the wrong gangway and got on the wrong
airplane. [Kerry laughing]
So meanwhile, Bob is on the airplane waiting for me and he sees them
shut the door. And he can’t figure out where I went. So all the way to
Las Vegas, you know, he says: Well maybe he got into the cockpit and I
didn’t see ‘im. So they get to Las Vegas. (And, you know, it takes much
longer to get to Los Angeles, so I couldn’t call him.) And he gets to
Las Vegas and he goes up into the cockpit and I’m not there. And he
cannot understand how we could have been so close and I didn’t get on
the airplane.
So he’s driving home about the time I get to Los Angeles and get my cell
phone.
I said: Bob?
He says: Where in the hell are you?
And I said: Well, I accidentally got on the wrong airplane. I’m in Los
Angeles.
So, that was the big laugh for about five years, that John Lear gets on
the wrong airplane. [Kerry and John laughing]
The information that Bob got up at S-4 was [reading from a paper]:
AIDS was a virus that is protected by the protein coat on the RNA
preventing the antibodies, the T-4 cells, of the immune system from
detecting and eliminating it. The alleged cure for AIDS lies in the
excrement of the white fungus that’s grown from the Chinese cucumber
Trichosanthes kirilowii.
This excrement, which develops after about two or three weeks, is
separated with hydrazine sulphate in an acidification process which
dissolves the protein coat on the RNA and exposes the nucleus of the
virus that’s detected by the antibodies in the immune system.
Regardless of how weak the immune system is, the virus will be
destroyed. No more than 20cc dose per 36-hour period should be
administered. No antibiotics should be used during this period. The
20ccs are metabolized in 36 hours, having dissolved the protein coat on
the virus.
And I mention here that over the last 20 years I have been party to
several attempts to get samples of the Trichosanthes kirilowii out of
China, but all have met with failure, the last samples having been
cooked during departure procedures.
Now, the “October Surprise.” In 1980, when Reagan and Bush were running
against Carter and Mondale, as you know, the hostages were still in
Iran, in Teheran. And then Bush took an airplane to Paris to meet – not
with Khomeini, but with a representative of Khomeini. And the deal was,
if the Khomeini would delay the release of the hostages until Reagan’s
inauguration, that the Reagan-Bush administration would supply him - the
Iranian regime - unlimited guns and ammunition throughout their
administration, which would go from 1980 to 1988.
My part in that was to deliver those guns and ammunition from Tel Aviv
to Teheran. The reason I brought this up is that big sheaf of papers
over there is the details of who was flying and how they pulled the
whole thing off.
The way they pulled if off is, Bush left Saturday night on a BAC 111 jet
which only takes about 6 or 7 hours to get there. He only spent about 4
or 5 hours in the meeting. And then he was flown back in an SR71 from a
base in France to McGuire Air Force Base. And it only took an hour and
14 minutes. That way, he was able to show up for a tennis appointment
that he had on Sunday, and that the press would have not known of the
lapse in time or the trip.
And as it turned out, they were elected and they supplied these guns and
ammunition. And that was, you know, part of the “Iran Contra,” but
Congress never went back farther than 1985 to find out when it
originally started.
And when I moved to Egypt in 1981, that was going to be my job, was to
take those arms and ammunition from Tel Aviv to Teheran. They were
coming into Tel Aviv from Zaragosa, our Air Force base in Spain. And
Mossad was handling the whole thing.
I never did fly a flight. And the reason was, the first airplane in was
an Argentinean CL44. And what they wanted to do was use an old turboprop
airplane to be sure everything went fine and there were going to be no
problems.
And for some reason it got shot down on its way out. And it got shot
down over Russia, about 40 miles south of Yerevan, which was well inside
Russia. And the Mossad couldn’t figure out how the pilots got off
course. They were on their way out. They had dropped the load, you know,
already dumped the arms and ammunition off.
And they finally figured out that what must have happened is the pilots
were intercepted by the Russian MIGs who knew what was going on and
didn’t like it. And the pilots thought: Well, you know, might as well
follow them because we’ve got nothing on board, they can’t prove
anything. And then as soon as they got them over Russia, just shot their
ass down, which was a message to Mossad: Hey, we don’t want this to go
on.
So that big sheaf of papers was the history behind the “October
Surprise.” There were two books. Gary Sick and Barbara Honegger each
wrote books about it. Congress went as far as to actually launch an
official investigation in 1990, but it was all covered up because, you
know, nobody wanted to go back that far or hear any more stories about
that thing. But the hostages did spend - let’s see - October, November,
December - an extra four months there.
K: So Reagan could be elected.
J: Right.
K: Incredible stuff.
J: A lot of people know this story. Well, it’s been, what? 30 years? And
pretty much everybody has forgotten it. The only reason I brought it up
is because I’m putting that history there, who the pilots were ...
K: Do you know anything about the Minot... the recent incident with the
Air Force Base and the weapons that were... the nuclear warheads that
were...
J: That smells to high heaven. I found that on ATS. It was very, very
thorough. It was one of my favorite threads. It went on forever. And we
had some guys at ATS that really knew what they were talking about. And
that was EXTREMELY interesting. It had to be Cheney. It couldn’t have
been anybody else that authorized it. And it was one of the most
double-dealing instances I’ve ever seen.
K: What would you say it was a set-up for, though? Why’d they do it?
J: You know, that’s the question. Why did they? They have nuclear
weapons already in Europe. Why’d they need to steal them, you know?
K: Right. And why’d they need to fly them from North Dakota or wherever
it was, South Dakota, across the United States? I mean, what was the
point?
J: It’s crazy. There IS no point. Well, there is a point, but I don’t
know what it is. But that episode is extremely interesting. I’d sure...
You know, one day we’ll find out and, you know, we’ll say: Ohhh, that’s
what it was all about. I don’t know, but that was really... It’s
My’-not.
K: Yeah. Meh-no’, North Dakota.
J: That’s the French pronunciation. We Americans call it My’-not.
[laughing] I’m kidding you.
K: I see. OK. So where are going next, John? What do you have?
J: I don’t know. While we’re thinking about where we’re going next
[picks up a book] I just ordered this book. Somebody, it just
accidentally came up there. It’s called The Gravitational Force of the
Sun by Pari Spolter. It was written in 1993. And basically what it says
here... [reading]: This book is a serious challenge to Newton’s Law of
Universal Gravitation as presently formulated.
And I’m just, you know, this far [shows small number of pages] in it.
And basically why that interests me is because Newton DID have some
ideas about the Moon, along with, you know, throughout history, about 36
other people who thought there was gravity on the Moon, there was
atmosphere, and there was people up there. But each one, you know... The
information got gently suppressed.
K: Well, we have bases up there. That’s really what ...
J: NO question about that. We have bases on Mars. You know, the Secret
Astronaut Corps has visited every planet, or most of the planets.
K: Every planet?
J: And much farther than that. We’ve been to other solar systems.
People, when we talk about other planets, say: Well, it’s too hot on
Venus. No. That’s bullshit.
The sun is an electromagnetic sphere. It’s not a nuclear reactor. And it
doesn’t radiate heat as such. It radiates electromagnetism and each
planet has its own filtering system. And so the filtering system around
each planet determines what the temperature is. So temperature on Venus
is much like Earth. So it is on Mars. So it is on Pluto. The same on
Mercury. There are people just like us on every single one of the
planets.
The planets that you hear about as being gas giants, like Saturn and
Neptune... There’s only ONE gas giant in our solar system, and that’s
NASA. [Kerry laughs] That’s the only gas giant we have. All the rest of
the planets, people live on and ...
K: So what do you think? They’re being shrouded? You think there’s...
J: We’re being suppressed. The information is being suppressed. We’re
not allowed to know about any of that. The people that Hoagland talks
about have taken over. And they consider space personally theirs. And
they don’t want to share it with any of us. They have technology that we
wouldn’t have to pay for gas or electricity right this single minute.
K: Right.
J: But they don’t want to share it with us. It’s only for the elite, and
we’re not included there. We can go to war, you know, and be subjects
for weapons and tests and stuff like that, but we are not going to share
in that technology. But out there there’s a fantastic universe,
fantastic set of planets. It’s really interesting out there.
B [off camera]: John, I would like to ask you a few questions, basically
on behalf of the people who are watching this video. We’re asking these
questions on their behalf. First of all, I want to say that our source,
Henry Deacon, told me personally - I don’t think this is on our site,
because for me it felt outlandish - He said that there’s life on every
planet in the solar system. He looked me in the eye and he said: You may
well not believe this, but I promise you it’s true. [John laughs]
He said that Venus is not as hot as they want you to believe. He said
the sun doesn’t work the way that they teach you in school. He said a
whole bunch of stuff that corroborates what you’re saying.
Now, he was on the inside. He’s worked in deep black projects all over
the place in a number of establishments. And so his source comes from
briefing documents, conversations with other physicists, and so forth
and so on.
Where do you get your information from here? Because this is so
extraordinary and way off the end of the spectrum, that people need to
know how you figured this out, or who has told you this, or what your
sources are.
J: Specifically the sun, that came from a document in
the Branton Files.
K: OK. So have you ever met Branton?
J: No, but we used to talk a lot. I’m not sure I ever met him face to
face. But his name was... what? His real name?
K: I forget his real name.
J: I think it’s Dave something. But anyway, we used to be real close and
then he got sick for a while and I don’t know what he does. But his
information is SO interesting. And I have no reason to believe that most
of it’s not true. Have you read the Branton Files?
K: Oh yeah. Absolutely.
J: They’re lengthy. I have a three-inch binder, that I had them printed
out.
K: I mean, he’s the one who really publicized the Dulce Base information
big time in those files. And you’re familiar with all of that, right?
J: The whole Dulce story started in 1987 when me, Linda Howe, Tom Adams,
and several others met in Crestone, Colorado, to discuss the state of
UFOs. And during that meeting - it was about 3 or 4 days - Tom Adams
walked over to me and handed me a note. - [Gestures at piles of papers
on desk] It’ll turn up eventually, but I don’t have it right now – And
the note was from him, who I call “Mr. X,” in Henderson, Nevada, and
told him about that he had a friend that worked at an underground base
in New Mexico... that the walls, the halls, went on forever, tiled
walls, and a little bit of this stuff. And Tom handed it to me. He says:
John, I don’t have time to go out there, research this. Would you look
into it? And I said: Sure.
So when I got back... And before I got back, me and Linda Howe went in
my truck all throughout New Mexico. We stopped and talked to Ernie
Edwards who was the, you know, the key figure in the Bennewitz deal.
And then, she and I drove down through Corona to see Clifford Stone. And
she and I took that road that goes from Corona over to the main highway
down to Roswell. And we’re going to find the Roswell ranch. And we get
to the turnoff and there’s 30 dead cows there. [Kerry laughs] It was
CRAZY. And so... They didn’t have the classic mutilations, but they were
dead. And we talked to the farmer there and he said: Oh yeah, there’s
some kind of a virus going around. And I forget what the whole story
was, but none of it made any sense. And we went down and interviewed
Clifford Stone.
Then I eventually drove back to Las Vegas, and met with Mr. X. And Mr. X
started telling me about Dulce, about the guard that had witnessed the
atrocities that were going on there, and didn’t agree with them, and he
decided to escape. And he escaped with – allegedly - 7 minutes of video
tape that showed the hallway, 25 black and white photos, and a hundred
pages of information.
K: Now, we’re told this is buried on top of a mountain and is
inaccessible.
J: I’ll get to that. So...
B: And that guy was Thomas Castello. Is that correct?
J: Thomas Castello. So Mr. X had met Thomas Castello and was very good
friends with him. And when he escaped, he made six of these boxes. And
what he did is, he gave a box to each one of his friends. And Mr. X was
one of them. And Mr. X took me down to Dolan Springs where he hid his
box on the top of a mountain. Now, I didn’t go to the top of the
mountain or see exactly where it was. But he showed me, you know, where
it was generally.
So we get back and I talk to Mr. X over a period of three or four
months. And eventually he shows me some pencil drawings that he drew
from the original photographs. Those became the infamous “Dulce Papers.”
And I have the originals right here that I drew from those pencil
drawings. And so I drew them.
K: And what are they drawings of?
J: Of the interior of Dulce
K: I see. Well, I don’t know if we’ve seen them or not. But can we get
those on camera?
J: Yeah.
K: OK. Do they contain any pictures of aliens?
J: No. They just show the lab, with all the hookups of the bags and
everything.
B: Are these the drawings that were published in Matrix Two? Matrix One?
J: Right. Matrix One. And the way that Matrix happened is, when I kept
getting into all this, a guy kept knocking on the door – John Grace –
and: Hey, I’d like to talk to you. And that was at the time that I was
having so much trouble with Marilee and I kept saying, you know: Don’t
come here. I don’t want to talk about it.
Finally he came in and we developed a long relationship of collaborating
on information. And Matrix One, every page, came off that desk [points
across the room]. And I wish I had that book. My mom passed away and
there was one left that she had in mint condition and I gave it to one
of my nieces. So I don’t have an original Matrix One. I have an original
Matrix Two. And now it’s up to Matrix Five.
Anyway, John Grace was a really interesting guy. He did a hell of a lot
of research. He worked for Nellis Air Force Base. And one day during
this period, like late ‘87, he wrote a kind of a “State of the Research”
- where we were at, as far as what we had found out. And he wrote it. He
wanted to get it out, but he didn’t want to use his name. So he wanted
to suggest a name and I said: Why don’t you call it Krill? K-R-I-L-L
(because the Pentagon dealt with an alien back in ’84 called C-R-L-L-L.)
So he said OK and he came up with, out of the blue, the initials O.H.
and it became the “O.H. Krill Papers.” And we weren’t trying to shy
anybody on. We weren’t trying to put any false information out. It was
just what we thought the state of the art was then. And John wanted to
know and we made up that name.
So, later it became a full-fledged disaster because Bill Cooper started
coming up then. And Bill Cooper and I did several video interviews. And
one of them was PM Magazine in Salt Lake City. And during that interview
they asked about “The Krill Papers,” and Bill Cooper said he’d seen them
in the Navy 20 years prior! When, you know, John Grace and I had dreamed
them up like two months prior to that. [Kerry laughs]
And the other thing was, there was a paragraph out then talking about
the Excalibur weapon. And the Excalibur weapon was a weapon that the
military were developing that would penetrate 1,000 feet of soil. And
Bob Lazar had written that, like two months prior. And Bill Cooper had
said he’d seen that in the Navy 20 years prior!
So I took Bill Cooper out of the room and said: What in the hell are you
talking about? John Grace and I wrote that Krill paper and Bob Lazar
wrote the Excalibur. He said: Well that may be, but I saw them in the
Navy.
So that’s when Bill Cooper and I started to split because I couldn’t
understand why he was saying stuff like that. And then it became known
as “UFO disease.” And UFO disease is where you get so popular in the UFO
field and you don’t have anything new to say, you make it up.
K: OK. Well, let me ask you something, because as far as I know, the
Matrix books are written by Val Valerian, who is John Grace, right?
J: That’s John Grace. Right.
K: So Matrix Five talks about Planet X, I’m told. I’ve got Matrix Five
and I don’t remember seeing Planet X referred to in there. But, you know
basically I was just told that it reminded, I guess, that it talks about
Planet X. I mean, it certainly talks about everything in there. But, you
say Planet X is a complete fallacy. So, are you still in touch with John
Grace? Do you know why he says it’s true?
J: No, I don’t know. John Grace... You know, I ordered Matrix Five and I
read the first 30 pages and I couldn’t get any further. So... There may
be a Planet X. There may be a Nibiru. But it’s not going to destroy
Earth in 2012.
K: OK. What about meteors? You know, aimed at this planet, that are
heading in.
J: We’ll be protected. You don’t have to worry about meteors.
K: And how, by what?
J: The guys who take care of us.
K: Which is...? Are you talking aliens? Are you talking HAARP?
J: Yeah. Aliens.
K: Do we have any idea which aliens are protecting us? Or do you?
J: Probably the Grays. The Grays are responsible for what we call the
physical body, which Bob read up at the test site are the “containers.”
They referred to it as containers. That’s their job. They see that
everything goes OK. And the container contains the souls. The Grays can
change souls from body to body, but their responsibility is not the
soul. That’s somebody else. And I don’t know who that person is. The
Grays are just here responsible for the “containers.” That’s why there
would never - unless it was under extremely unusual circumstances -
would a meteor ever hit the Earth. There will be no catastrophe like
that.
Let’s keep that thought and I’m going to have something to eat here...