Mark Glenn: Dr. Sabrosky, welcome to
Dr. Alan Sabrosky: Thank you very much, Mark. A pleasure to be
MG: Well, believe me, the pleasure is ours. As I said, this
article that you wrote this week - there are very few articles that
really catch my attention these days, as you can understand, Dr.
Sabrosky, because there's just so much information out there and so many
But this one particularly caught my interest and held my
interest throughout the duration of reading this article - which I will
be reading here in just a minute.
But before I jump into that I'm just
going to go ahead and give you the floor here, and let you say some
things that I think need to be said.
AS: Mark, we had talked about this earlier and, you know, my feelings
are that I'm perfectly willing to debate issues with anyone on any
subject. Most of us have different views of things and none of us, I
think, believes we have the entire truth for ourselves. Anyone who does
is a fool.
On the subject that I wrote this time, it caught my attention as well
because if there is anything that is more significant it is loyalty:
loyalty to country, loyalty to people, loyalty to constitution. And to
my displeasure and my shame - because I have some Jewish relatives, none
of whom are Zionist - a large majority of American Jews give their
allegiance to a foreign country.
They may have American citizenship, but
their allegiance is to Israel.
And as I said in the piece, this is a
form of political bigamy which is every bit as dishonest as marital
bigamy. I'm not married now, but when I was, loyalty to my spouse was
absolute. It has to be there. I could look and say, "Aha! there is Farrah Fawcett," and I could admire someone out there but I didn't give
that person my allegiance.
There's a difference between admiring from a
distance and giving allegiance to that thing. And it's the same with a
Some of my [American] relatives are German, some are Irish, and all of
them have a measure of allegiance to those cultures, but it's not a
political allegiance. It's a social allegiance. It's like, "We're
stand up on St Patrick's Day," or "We're going to stand up on Oktoberfest,"
or "We're going to celebrate this," and we're proud of being German, or
Irish, or whatever it happens to be.
But none of us gives our allegiance
to Ireland or to Germany. Jews do. And if we don't say it - I don't care
if we're called anti-Semites or not - if we don't stand up and say,
"Truth is truth, their allegiance is to a foreign country, they are
traitors," then we're dishonest to ourselves.
MG: It would be one thing if they had allegiance to this foreign
country, and this foreign country's national interests mimicked ours -
but this isn't the case. The third leg of this chair here today is a man
who experienced first-hand the fact that the national interests of this
other country are not the same as the national interests of this
AS: But it's even more than that, Mark. I've had a bitter argument with
one of my Jewish cousins who moved to Israel and kept an American
citizenship. If someone loves another country enough to go there: more
power to them. They go, that's it - they're gone.
But they keep the
American citizenship so that they can continue to participate in our
elections, stand in our offices - look at
Rahm Emanuel: he served in the
Israeli armed forces, not in the American armed forces, and he is easily
the second most powerful person in this country - easily.
That's treason. I will tell you right now: if Palestinians had the same
influence in America I would oppose them in the same way. I don't care
what the country is, what the allegiance is, what matters to me is that
if you are American, you love this country first, last, and that's the
end of it.
And I don't care if you're Navy, Marine, whatever you are.
Phil, you and I will probably agree on this and probably one of the few
things that a Navy and Marine guy would agree on, but I think both of us
would agree that loyalty to America is the only non-negotiable part of
Phil Tourney (USS Liberty Survivor): Absolutely, Alan, and I'll tell
you, you being a United States Marine, that is inbred in you, and being
a Marine - semper fidelis, always faithful - you're faithful to your
country; and I'm sorry you had the argument with your cousin but you're
still faithful to your country and I understand exactly where you're
Mark, I don't think at the beginning of the show that you read the
Doctor's credentials off. I wish you would, because it means a lot, and
it means a lot to me to hear them.
MG: Absolutely, and I will do that right now since I'm about to launch
into reading this excellent article.
Alan Sabrosky (Ph.D, University of Michigan) is a ten-year US Marine
Corps veteran and a graduate of the US Army War College.
Now, not only that - Dr. Sabrosky correct me if I'm wrong here - not
only are you a graduate of the US Army War College, but you were a
director of studies there for some period of time - is that correct?
AS: That's correct. For five-and-a-half years.
MG: Five-and-a-half years as director of studies at the US Army War
College. You know, of all the things that I would love to have trailing
behind my name, Dr. Sabrosky, being the director of studies at the US
Army War College would definitely be one of them.
AS: Thank you very much, I appreciate that.
MG: Alright, ladies and gentlemen, as much as it's going to appear as if
I'm acting as a school mom here in reading this article to you.
Nevertheless, I'm going to do it.
Not as an intellectually insulting
gesture towards you - because I know you can all read very well - but I
was so impressed with this article that I want it entered into the
record here within the context of this conversation, and that's the
reason I'm going to read it.
The Dark Face of Jewish Nationalism
report by Dr. Sabrosky)
So writes Alan Sabrosky PhD, former director of studies at the U.S.
Army War College.
Dr. Sabrosky, I cannot think of an article that I have read in recent
memory that basically sums up the problem that we are dealing with right
now as accurately and as succinctly as this essay that you have written.
You have, for all intents and purposes, nailed this thing on the head.
guess the reason why I got so excited over this article, Dr. Sabrosky,
is because one of things that I have noted about the problem that we're
dealing with - in terms of Zionism, the power of the Jewish lobby, and
what-not - is that everything is shrouded in some type of confusion or
mystery, and I think deliberately so. I think one of the biggest
components to this powerful foreign interest being able to get as far as
I mean, let's face it: it got away with attacking a United
States ship for close to two hours killing 34 men - this was an act of
war, they got away with it.
Not only did they get away with it, they
were rewarded with three-billion dollars a year minimum.
When we look at
the two wars that the United States finds herself in, and on the cusp of
at least two others, and all of this for the benefit of a certain
foreign country sitting on the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea -
they have been wildly successful at bringing all of this about and I
think one of the main components of this is the fact that very few
people really understand the nature of the problem - and I think that
your article here basically lays out the problem, which is that when you
have people that try to make this claim that they are loyal to America
and, at the same time, loyal to a foreign government, it is a lie.
AS: It is, and it's more than that, Mark. What we need to stand up and
say is that not only did they attack the USS Liberty,
they did 9/11.
They did it.
I have had long conversations over the past two weeks with contacts at
the Army War College, at the Headquarters Marine Corps, and I have made
it absolutely clear in both cases that it is 100% certain that 9/11 was
a Mossad operation. Period.
You know, Phil, I don't denigrate what happened to USS Liberty in the
slightest - you understand that - but for most Americans what happened
to the USS Liberty, or in Vietnam, was history. Now this is history. You
know, they can be concerned about it, but they're not going to get mad
9/11 has led directly to 60,000 Americans dead and wounded, God knows
how many hundreds of thousands of people in other countries that we've
killed or wounded or made homeless, and it's an on-going sore. It's not
your sore from the USS Liberty, it's not my sore from Vietnam. Both of
us have those, both of us care about. But this is an open wound.
what Americans need to understand is that they did it. They did it. And
if they do understand that, Israel's going to disappear. Israel will
flat-ass disappear from this Earth.
I sent a film to one of my colleagues and it basically had Americans
grieving over their dead coming back. And I showed one of them - it was
a woman - just wrenched by grief over her dead soldier. And I said, you
know, if Americans ever know that Israel did this, they're going to scrub
them off the Earth, and they're not going to give a rat's ass - forgive my
language - what the cost is.
They are not going to care. They will do
it. And they should.
And they should.
PT: Alan, your article and your heart and your testimony and what you
believe in is heart-wrenching to me. It is like our founding fathers,
and their shadows, talking and saying,
"We have to fix this, we have to
make our own way, and we have to do it now, or we will go down."
AS: Exactly. Absolutely, Phil. I agree fully.
PT: Your article needs to be shipped off to the library of congress
AS: Well, I can tell you it's being read by some people in Headquarters
Marine Corps and at the Army War College. I sent it off to them this
past week and I've had some long discussions with people up there, and
there's some really, really unhappy people.
MG: What are they saying, if you can talk about that, Dr. Sabrosky?
AS: Astonishment. The first thing, Mark, is astonishment. They didn't
know. They truly didn't know. And these are not unintelligent people.
They really didn't know.
And the next statement is rage. Real rage. And the Zionists are playing
this as truly an all-or-nothing exercise, because if they lose this one,
if the American people ever realize what happened, they're done.
And I will tell you frankly - I don't think either one of you has any
Jewish ancestry. I do. You know, I have one grandparent who's Jewish. As
Phil Weiss from Mondoweiss were talking about it - he's a Jewish guy who
puts a lot of critical stuff out there on Israel - and I said for the
Orthodox Rabbinate I'm not a Jew. For the Nazis, I've been there.
this explodes, I'm going to go down with the rest of them. And I know this.
I flat-out know this. But if that was the price for making America whole
When I took my oath 51 years ago to the United States marine corps, no
one promised us life. No one did. They promised us duty and loyalty and
service - and maybe death. And that's how they talked to us in 1959. I
don't think they talk to them that way anymore. But in 1959 they did,
and if my death were a requirement for the saving of America - well,
hell, I could've died in Vietnam.
It's my service, my country, my corps.
And, Phil, it's like you in the Navy: we signed onto this, and we love
our service. And none of us wishes to die. Certainly I don't. I don't
think either one of you guys do.
But if that's the price, then that's
the price I pay. I mean that.
PT: When you're talking about Marines, I have the utmost respect and I
know your duty to country. When the torpedo hit our ship and I opened up
to scuttle, guess who I pulled out of there: a United States marine,
named Bryce Lockwood. And he was holding on to another sailor and saved
his life, and he received a silver star. God bless him for that.
And I understand wholeheartedly what's in your heart, because I have it
my heart. I didn't learn it by becoming a sailor as such, but I learned
it through the grace of God for saving our ship, I learned it through
scholars like you, I've learned it through good friends like Mark Glenn
and my shipmates - and I've learned it through actions of Israel.
when you struck me very, very hard just a second ago when you talked
about 911. You're very willing to say that, yeah,
they did it: 911. Yes,
they did. And, you know, my heart broke. And I saw that plane - the last
one - go into the tower. And to see that...
I mean, I know it's in your
heart, and Mark's, and everybody else's, to see your fellow Americans
being slaughtered and murdered just as they did the USS Liberty. Alan,
it is something that, if we don't talk about it, if we don't tell people
about it - I believe God wants us to - and if we don't: shame on us.
AS: I agree very much on that side, and I'll tell you - I have a dream,
as Martin Luther King, Jr. once said, and my dream is that the 5th and
6th US fleets take Israel and cream it.
And that's the end of it.
MG: Just for the record, Dr. Sabrosky, it was about three years ago -
and I can remember distinctly I was on a radio program in the run-up
to the reunion that Liberty guys were going to be having in DC - and I
made a prediction on the air that I believed with all my heart at the
time and I believe with all my heart now, but someday, some way.
don't know exactly how it's going to happen - I have my suspicions - but
someday and some way, maybe a lot sooner than any of us realize, the
United States is going to find herself at war with Israel. And I mean a
real, live shooting war.
Now, technically speaking, we are at war with her because she is at war
with us. She is out to destroy us. We just haven't figured it out yet.
My personal prediction is that probably - again, sooner than any of us
realize or would like to envision - Israel is going pull off another
9-11. She's going to pull of another USS Liberty. Obviously, some pretty
powerful people in some pretty prominent places, such as Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mike Mullen, believe this is a possibility
because he cut short a trip he made to Europe a few years ago to hastily
fly to Israel to meet with his counterpart and warn him in no uncertain
terms how important it was that there not be another USS Liberty part
So, in as far as what you two fellows were just talking about, that we
need to talk about this, I'm going to offer another theory here for
We would already have had that 9/11 part two, or that USS
Liberty part two - that would already have been a fait accompli were it
not for the fact that a growing number of people have been talking about
this problem since 9/11.
I think that Israel has been watching all of this and has been saying,
"We need to kind of let things cool a little bit for now - if we try to
pull another one off right now then that's it: we're going to blow our
AS: It's not only a matter of blowing our cover. If Americans ever truly
understand that - they're history. It'll be a bloody, brutal war - and
they're gone. I mean, it's not even going to be a close contest. And
they know that. What they understand, I think, as well, is that their
leverage is on the political appointments. Their leverage is not in the
If you pick up the Army Times, or the Navy Times, or any of the journals
of any of the services you've got a very different view than you get
looking at the Congress and the White House. And the military has not
been bought. The military is loyal but it has not been bought.
And if it
ever understands this - really, really, deeply understands this - and
this is what I got when I put some of these things to the Army War
College and to Headquarters Marine Corps - and I mentioned to a contact
in Headquarters Marine Corps, I said,
"You know they did 9/11...," and
it was, "You don't mean it." I said, "Absolutely".
And if they ever understand that, these people are history.
MG: Well, now let me ask you something, Doctor, and obviously I
understand that we need to protect the names of the innocent here...
AS: There are no innocent! [laughter]
PT: I agree.
MG: I'd like to know a little bit more about this. I mean, these
conversations that you're having with your colleagues who are still
serving in uniform. What is the reaction on their part when you tell
them things like this?
AS: First is disbelief, and what I show them immediately afterwards is
an interview with a Danish demolitions expert named Danny Jowenko, and
it shows the third building at the World Trade Center going down -
And they look at that, and I said,
"Now you understand that if one of
the buildings was wired for demolition, all of them were wired for
And that's it. That's the tipping point.
I mean, getting into arguments about who was flying what, and where they
were, and whether there was
nano-thermite - those things are true, but
they're incidental. The thing that's necessary is to tell people: three
buildings went down; the third was not hit by a plane, it was wired for
controlled demolition, therefore, all of them were wired for controlled
And at that point the reaction is rage. First disbelief, and
MG: Well, I've got to tell you, that I find to be very encouraging
because based upon the cursory conversations I have with some military
people - and I have to be real careful about what I say because you just
don't know what you're walking into when you start a discussion of this
type with one of them - based upon these cursory conversations that I've
had with some of them, they're clueless and they don't want to here
They are loyal to the flag that is on their left sleeve as a
patch, and the thought that the government could be in any way involved
in any kind of high crimes and treason against the people of the United
States is just unthinkable to them, so I'm glad to hear that there still
is some grey matter and some patriotism left - at least in the circles
where you travel, Dr. Sabrosky.
AS: Well, it's not that they don't want to hear it, it's that don't know
What I have done when I've presented it to these people and I
"Just look at this - just look at this picture. I'm not going to
give you an argument - just look at it."
And they look at the film and
without exception they come back and they say,
"They did it, didn't
they." I said, "Yep - they did it."
PT: Can I jump in here for a second - I just wanted to mention, talking
about military people, some of the most distinguished military people
that I've ever had the pleasure to be around... Admiral Thomas Moore,
former Joint Chiefs of Staff which supported us completely in the USS
Liberty investigation, and so on and so forth.
And then Ray Davis - he was a commandant of the United States Marine
Corps. He directly said - this is of course not going into 911 - that
the USS Liberty was not a mistaken identity, it was an act of
cold-blooded, premeditated murder. So there are people out there in the
Now these guys were retired at the time - but when you're educating
people, like you're doing, Alan, people who serve in the military now,
you're exactly right: they just don't know, because nobody knows. It's
been hid up.
Everything's been hid.
It's been covered up so good it'd
almost take a Messiah to get us out of this thing.
MG: Dr. Sabrosky, I wanted to ask you - since we are to a certain degree
prognosticating today, and making predictions - what do you think is
going to happen here?
I mean, I was having a conversation with someone the other day about
this situation with Iran, and the fact of the matter is that
irrespective of whether or not Iran is actually actively engaged in
building a nuclear weapon, or not, the fact of that is that Israel
cannot afford to have this war not take place.
There has to be something
that takes place, even if it's just lobbing a couple of bombs into Iran
and then really spectacularising it through their control of the media.
They have to do something to recoup some of their public image, so would
you agree with me on that, and assuming that you do agree with me on
that, what do you think Israel is going to be doing in the near future.
AS: We're going to have a
war with Iran. And my guess is that the Arab
Street is going to explode.
PT: I agree.
AS: And American forces, American units, like 5th fleet headquarters in
Bahrain, the rest of it - there's going to be a casualty list that we're
not even going to care to think about.
PT: Alan, I think this thing was predestined from day one. It started in
Afghanistan. They go to Iraq, and Iran has been the big prize all along.
What do you think?
AS: Yes. No question at all. And in fact if the Iraqi resistance hadn't
been so strong it would have already happened in the second
PT: Absolutely. I agree 100%.
MG: So all of this reticence, reluctance - whatever you want to call it
- what appears to be reticence and reluctance on the part of the Obama
administration - what do you think is going on? I mean, look, just this
past week we had some what I consider pretty dramatic things being said
on the part of the
Obama administration with regards to Israel with the
settlements and what-not.
What is this? Is this just posturing on the
part of the Obama Administration or are they really trying to pull back
on their end?
AS: The Obama Administration hasn't withheld a single dollar, a single
plane - nothing. Words are cheap.
The Israelis made a tactical error in that they insulted Biden - and
Biden is not one of my favorite people, but he is a street smart guy and
he doesn't like being humiliated. This is a given.
But nothing has
happened to affect in a tangible sense anything that we're giving to
Israel. Nothing. And as long as nothing happens to tangibly affect what
we're giving to them, nothing else will matter.
MG: Why are we not already at war with Iran then?
AS: Partly because we can't find a good enough excuse for it that will
allow us to sidestep what we're doing in Afghanistan and, to a lesser
extent, Iraq. It's that there's just a little too much there.
I'm pretty sure that the pattern was:
Afghanistan in 2001
The problem was that the Iraqi resistance didn't
let that happen.
So now the time frame is a little bit different, and
I'm not sure how that's going to play out, but I think that the way
we're going to it is to try and create an excuse for a war.
And after the war takes place people can question it, but it doesn't
change the fact of the war.
MG: You're right. If there's anything that we learned from Vietnam it's
that once the troops are committed, right or wrong, you stand by the
troops. That's one of the things that I noticed with the first Gulf war,
and this is before I knew anything about anything.
I thought, boy, when you look at the kind of protests that took place -
and I was in college at the time of the first Gulf War - when you look
at the kind of protests that took place during Vietnam - and of course
on college you had a few people grumbling and saying this and saying
that but, in general, the Neo-Cons really played the whole Vietnam thing
beautifully - if such a word can be used for something as tragic as
And don't misunderstand me, Dr. Sabrosky: I know that you're a
Vietnam vet and I hold these guys in the highest regards too, and when I
say they played this thing beautifully, they made the protesters look
like these grotesque, ugly, unpatriotic people to the point where, when
the next big war started, nobody would dare raise their voice up against
the troops the way that they did in Vietnam.
AS: Yep, absolutely on it. Mark, I'm going to have to separate in just a
If I could make sort of a concluding statement... And I think that you
would second me on this.
Nothing to me is more important than loyalty to or allegiance to my
country. Nothing is. But that requires my country and my government to
also behave in an honorable fashion. Our government, today, does not
behave in an honorable fashion.
And there is something in the
Declaration of Independence which says that whenever any form of
government becomes oppressive of these ends it is the right and duty of
the people to alter or abolish it, and I think we have gone to the point
where we need to alter or abolish it.
And I say that as a man who spent
his entire life loyal to the United States.
PT: I understand you. God bless you for that. God bless you.
MG: Ladies and gentlemen: "The Dark Face of Jewish Nationalism"
(below report). Look it up on the internet - I don't think you're going to have any trouble
finding it. Written by our very good friend and special guest tonight:
Dr. Alan Sabrosky.
Doctor, I hope we will be lucky enough to have you back on the program
in the near future, and in the mean time please keep up your excellent
work. Honestly, as much as this is going to sound like posturing to you,
there are very few people, as I said, who say anything that really
causes me to take a double-take and to sit down and pay attention, and
you're definitely one of them.
AS: I appreciate that, Mark. You take care of yourself.
Phil, warmest regards. Semper fi to you, my friend.
PT: Semper fi. God bless you, sir, and we will talk again