The real rulers in Washington are invisible, and exercise power
from behind the scenes.
—Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter, 1952
Jordan Maxwell is an author, teacher and lecturer on ancient religions. He
has appeared on three CBS-TV specials, ANCIENT MYSTERIES OF THE BIBLE, Parts
One and Two, and ANCIENT MYSTERIES OF THE WORLD.
Mr. Maxwell is interviewed
here by Paul Tice, a writer and Gnostic minister from the San Diego area.
This interview first appeared under the title of On Religion and Politics.
INTERVIEWS PART 1
ON RELIGION AND
PT: Some people may not know of your work. Who is Jordan Maxwell?
JM: I feel
as though I am an ordinary man in the grips of an extraordinary idea; an
ordinary human in pursuit of extraordinary knowledge. The knowledge that I
have acquired began when I was very young. My mother's uncle worked at the
Vatican, Secretary of State's office, and when he would come back to this
country for a visit, he would sit for hours and talk to my family about
secret societies, subversive movements, the political intrigue going on
behind religious movements, and he used to dazzle me with the explanations
about symbols and emblems of occult societies. So I grew up around that kind
of knowledge. My grandfather was a Congressman from the state of Florida and
there were federal judges in the family, so I grew up hearing things that
government figures talk about behind the scenes, with their family, which is
a world of difference from what they say publicly. As I grew, I continued to
research these hidden areas. I've been waiting for years for someone to deal
with these specific subjects that are not normally dealt with. And since no
one else has volunteered to do it, I feel a responsibility to speak up.
Most of your work is related to religion, although some family members have
been involved in politics. What is the connection between religion and
JM: If you go back into the furthest part of history, as far back
as you can go, religion and politics were one and the same. In the ancient
world there was never a difference. The king or head of the tribe was always
mediator between God and his people. There's never been a political movement
in the world that wasn't a little religious, and there's never been a
religious movement anywhere that wasn't a little political. Knowing this
helps us to understand the connections that can be made today, in our
PT: So in our society you're saying that this separation of church
and state exists on a more broad or general level, but that behind the
scenes there may not be quite so much of a separation there?
There virtually is no separation of church and state because, for instance,
you cannot get married unless you get a marriage license. You can get
married before God as long as you have a license from the state. You cannot
start a church without first getting government documents, licenses,
permits. In the West, generally speaking, the political institutions were
founded by the same political establishments that founded religious
movements. So religion and politics are, in fact, one and the same thing.
PT: But the main thrust of your work seems to involve religion more than
JM: I prefer to focus more on religion, but politics is equally important.
Let's look at the big picture. What I am working to accomplish is to make
people aware that man-made institutions, government and religious, arc
nothing more than a way to control you. To control how you think, to control
where you go, how you view things, and what you believe. Man-made churches
and governments were meant to control you. So you have a responsibility, not
only to your own spiritual self (to educate yourself, spiritually, and take
back your life from the hands of your masters), but you also have a
responsibility to your Creator. The divine entity who created you and gave
you life, gave all creation freedom. Throughout nature, the birds and
animals have total freedom. There is a freedom throughout the universe. The
only place where we have a lack of freedom is in the human realm. We are the
ones who are in prison, and 90 per cent of it is our own fault. We have
allowed other people our churches, our governments, our institutions, to do
our thinking for us. And I'm saying that we are moving into a new time,
whether we like it or not, where the people all over the Earth are going to
have to break free from all the institutions and realize that we are all
creations of God and we all have freedoms. We should have the same freedoms
that all other creations have. Until such time that we get off of our knees
and stand on our feet, and think for ourselves, we will not have the freedom
that we were born to have.
PT: You pick out Christianity, quite often, as a focal point for this needed
change. In what areas do you feel that Christianity is lacking?
JM: Lacking or not, the age of Christianity is on its way out. Christianity,
in the last 1600 years (since being formalized), has been symbolized by the
two fishes of Pisces. In astrology, you'll find that each governing power
was originally called "The Lord" over the constellation it represented.
Jesus, "The Lord," was made to represent the two fishes, but we're now
entering into another time called the "Age of Aquarius." In the Book of Luke
22:10 where the 12 apostles, or the 12 signs of the zodiac, are asking God's
"Sun," the light of the world, where he will go after he leaves the
constellation of Pisces, the two fishes, God's Sun says you will go into the
city and will see a man with the water pitcher, and go into the house of the
man with the water pitcher. That is the house of Aquarius. There is an
encoded message in the New Testament, almost all of it was written in an
allegorical sense. That's why Jesus said, "Many will look with their eyes,
but not see. And they will listen with their ears, but not hear. " Many have
read the Bible and listened to sermons in churches for thousands of years,
and they have looked with their eyes, but did not see. And they have
listened to sermons with their ears, but did not hear.
PT: So the fundamentalist Christians are the furthest from the truth when
they think they have the whole truth. Is that what you are saying?
JM: Well, there's a scripture where Jesus said, "If you say that you are in
the light, but in fact you are in the dark, then how dark your light really
is." The point made is if you think you have the whole truth and the correct
understanding, you had better make sure you do. Because if you don't, you
are really in the dark. And my point on this is that humility is required to
understand spiritual things. We need to be humble enough to admit that we
might not have read the scriptures correctly.
PT: Your career is starting to take off, and you are getting noticed
everywhere. How do you think the church will perceive you? And the public in
JM: There's no doubt that many in the church, no matter what denomination,
will perceive me as an antichrist or at least working on the side of an
antichrist. But it has also been my experience in talking to thousands of
people, lecturing in auditoriums and before various groups where many of
these people were church-going Christians. And I've found the majority of
them were favorably disposed toward me and what I am saying. They do not
show themselves to be hostile at all, and seem to be impressed with the
things that they're learning. The people who will see me as being on the
side of an antichrist will be those who have something to lose. Those who
have a vested interest, who are employed and might lose their employment.
And people who are sincerely searching for knowledge and truth never shy
away from challenges to learn. And something I have learned is that truth
can stand on its own, and never needs to be validated by ignorance and
bigotry. As Gerald Massey wrote, "They must find it difficult, those who
have accepted the authority as the truth, rather than truth as the
authority." Those who have accepted our government and church authority as
being correct are going to find that when you are faced with spiritual
truth, this truth has nothing in common with those authorities.
PT: Does this mean you know what that spiritual truth is? Are you hinting at
having a monopoly on the truth, as many religions claim?
JM: I believe that I am on my own path to truth, and with a similar under
standing, many others might find their own paths easier. In the Indiana
Jones movie "The Last Crusade," Indiana Jones is saying to his class that if
you are looking for truth, then you are in the wrong class. Truth is found
in the philosophy and religion department, that's where truth is found. "As
an archaeologist," he said, "I am concerned with facts, not truth." And the
reason why, is that all educated people know that truth is subjective.
Things that are true to you, may not be true to me.
PT: That's true.
JM: That's why in a court of law, we're not looking for someone to tell "the
truth," we're looking for what can be proven by facts. Whether you tell the
truth or not. If you have preconceived ideas, that is a very bad starting
point. How would you like to be on trial, for your life and have the 12
jurors already decided on your case?
PT: So you would want people to approach you in the same way with an open
JM: Right. At least hear what I have to say before you make a judgment. I
could be wrong. And that's what I've always said. I could be wrong.
PT: But if you're right...
JM: But if I'm right, it means that the whole authoritarian system that we
see around us is wrong, and it has usurped the position of our Creator. The
governments and churches both have usurped the great spiritual God-force
that exists and that we have a right to. The American Indians referred to it
as "The Great Spirit," and most of the ancient peoples of the world
recognized it. That is what man owes his first and only allegiance to that
great creative force in the universe that gave us life and gives you
PT: That reminds me of the Chief Seattle speech that was reprinted in the
book that you also appeared in The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To
Read. He said that we all have the same God.
JM: And that's exactly right. But today, in the Western world in particular,
we have given ourselves our bodies, our minds, and our money over to
politics, to government, and to churches, instead of to that Great Spirit.
That makes a very big connection between church and government. They share
this same "territory." And now, we are finally seeing the outcome of all
this chicanery. America, one of the greatest countries ever on the face of
the Earth is now on its knees because so many of its people are broke, and
serving "other masters."
PT: We're also deep in debt as a country.
JM: True. And no matter which side of the political spectrum it's from,
everyone perceives that America is in serious, serious trouble. It is no
longer something to talk about, it is something you had better worry about.
Because if this country goes under and a "New World Order" comes in, then so
goes freedom, liberty, and spiritual and intellectual enlightenment for the
whole world, I believe. It's time for all people who love truth to stand up
and acknowledge that organized religion and government have failed. They are
not leaders. They are misleaders. They have purposely misled us. And I
believe that there is a higher spiritual force in this universe that is
going to deal with this state, with this government, and with this religion,
and with us if we continue to be a part of it.
PT: You have said that religion and government have failed. That reminds me
of two quotes from The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read Pertaining
to religion Robert Ingersoll said, "Religion can never reform mankind
because religion is slavery." And on politics, James Madison once said, "1
believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the
people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent
and sudden usurpations."
JM: That's exactly how the ones at the top are doing it, taking our
freedoms. It's the old story of the frog put into the pan of cold water,
then the fire put under him slowly. The water becomes hot gradually, so that
the frog doesn't notice that he's being cooked until it's too late then it
dawns on him that he's been had.
PT: Otherwise, if you'd have put the heat up right away...
JM: ...then he'd
have felt it right away, and would never have bought into it. Americans
today would never have bought into what is happening today in this country
50 years ago. People 50 years ago would turn in their graves if they could
see what has happened to their beloved country.
PT: So what would happen,
hypothetically, then, if indeed this country did go down the tubes, if our
debts were completely out of control and somebody had to come in with an
iron fist and rule over us?
JM: That's precisely what will happen, if we're
not very, very careful. Another Adolf Hitler is about to be born.
what can we do to avert that, if you can see that happening on the horizon?
We want to have some hope here.
JM: T believe it's very likely that the same
kind of tyranny experienced in Nazi Germany is on the way for America. The
first thing we have to do is awaken ourselves spiritually enough to
understand that we owe our thoughts, our decisions, and our lives to our
higher, spiritual selves and to the spiritual power in the universe that
created us and not to our churches, reverends, preachers, not to government,
not to bureaucrats, not to any human being on this Earth that puts their
clothes on the same way you do. They are not in any more position of
spiritual authority than any one else. That's the first thing we have to do,
because right now we are not only getting poorer financially, we are very
poor intellectually and spiritually.
PT: So you're saying that this
spiritual ignorance, this drought that we're in now that our deepest
problems are the result of that.
JM: That's exactly what I'm saying. The
problems that we face throughout the world are spiritual problems, and not
political. If we were spiritually awake and spiritually alert and alive, we
would never, ever allow the kinds of things that are happening in this
country and in the world. But one thing our "masters" in this country know,
as all tyrants have always known, is if they can get you to sell out your
morality, your ethics, and your scruples for money, pleasure and money, then
you will no longer be a threat or be able to defend your freedom. Because
you are then dependent on their alcohol, their money, their drugs, their
motion pictures, entertainments, and various other diversions. You become so
jaded in your materialistic lust for everything just mentioned, that you
will just be quiet as long as you can have what makes you happy. Once you
have your porno films, alcohol, or whatever keeps you quiet, you will never
stand up to those who provide it unless you are morally, ethically, and in
every other way prepared to stand on your own, by yourself, and not be a
slave to anyone.
PT: Why is it that you have said that the church is in no
position to represent the highest spiritual authority? I'm wondering, is
that because they can't make you realize your spiritual potential for you,
but that you've got to do it yourself?
JM: Yes, that is one consideration.
They cannot make you a spiritual person.
But I would take that a step further by saying that the organized church
today, in the Western world, beginning with the Roman Catholic Church in the
year 325,needs to be studied very closely. The scriptural precedent was set
by the words of Jesus, who once said, "Can a bad tree give forth good
fruit?" I'd say that's impossible. So if that is true, then Protestants, who
protested against Rome and set up their own organizational church, became an
offspring, so to speak. And if Catholicism is the bad tree, then according
to a quote from their theology, Protestants are equally as bad, since a bad
tree cannot give forth good fruit. What I'm saying is that religion in the
western world, as we know it, is nothing more than a political movement. An
entirely bad tree that took more than 300 years to organize because of
scheming and in-fighting. It was organized and later directed from "behind
the scenes," as it still is today. Martin Luther, for example, was
influenced by sinister people, some who were Freemasons, for purely
political reasons to divide the power of the church. And when you see the
church in this context, as apolitical movement continually playing a part in
the bigger picture, then you can understand why religion and government are
one and the same.
PT: You quote from the Bible often. How do you view the Bible?
entire story of the New Testament is an astrological story. That's
interesting, since we have been told not to have anything to do with
fortune-telling or astrology. And yet, in Genesis, Amos 5:8, and the Book of
Job, Job 37:18, and Job 9:9, the Bible very clearly talks about how God
created the heavens, or zodiac. And in Job 38:32 God asks, "Can you direct
the signs of the zodiac, or guide the constellation of the bear?" This
includes the proper translation of the word "Mazzaroth" into "zodiac," used
in Moffatt's English Bible and The New English Bible, for example. Yet, many
other versions don't bother to translate the word, but leave it as "Mazzaroth,"
to the confusion of all readers (as in King James). And the entire
scriptures are filled with the idea that God created the 12 signs of the
zodiac. That's why Jesus is called "the son," God's Sun, who has 12 helpers,
or the 12 signs of the zodiac. And in the very beginning, Genesis 1 :14, the
scripture says God created the luminaries of the night — the stars — for
signs. We're talking about zodialogical signs. We have a misunderstanding as
to what the scriptures are saying, overall, and we need to get past the
misunderstandings that we have been led into by the churches.
PT: Who was it
in the Bible, was it Saul, who denounced witches? The Bible says he banished
them from the land. Then four verses later he says, "Bring me a witch! "
Yes, King Saul. What is interesting about that is all of Christianity says
that when Saul went to the witch of Endor to bring up Samuel, he went to
this witch and asked her to contact the prophet Samuel, who was dead, and
the witch did that. Christianity said, "Well, that wasn't really Samuel, it
was a demon who made himself appear to be Samuel." But the fact is, if you
read the account, in One Samuel, it says "And the witch brought up Samuel
and Samuel talked to...," and it does not say it was a demon or a spirit
that was acting like Samuel, it was Samuel.
PT: So there's a contradiction
there. I've heard many contradictions are also found in the four main New
JM: Yes, it's there if you look. And there is additional
information being kept from us or covered up. This is a direct quote, if you
wish to quote me: I am saying that the most heinous criminals that have ever
existed in this world, from what I can tell by a study of history, are here
today, in America. Leading this country, as politicians on a state level,
and especially on the federal level, are the most heinous criminals the
world has ever known. These men are not politicians and leaders, they are
misleaders, they are criminals. They have caused this country to be sold out
to its enemies, they have bled us dry, our finances, they have stolen from
us, and we are now in the same footsteps the Roman empire was in the early
fourth century, just before the total collapse of the empire. America has
been in decline for the past 30
to 40 years for sure. We are heading for a total decline and ultimate
collapse. Somewhere along the line the people are going to wake up and find
out their churches have not told them this. The churches have purposely kept
the people sleeping, and depending on "The Lord who is to come," and looking
for tomorrow, and don't worry about today, don't put up any resistance, just
do whatever the government says, and have faith in God,
PT: Isn't this church mentality a repeating pattern in history?
JM: Over and
over. When we came out of the Dark Ages into the Age of Enlightenment, the
leaders of The Enlightenment were eventually put to death by the church. And
the church always put to death anyone who would go against church or
government. I believe the two greatest enemies of all free people in the
world are government and religion, both. They are both equal partners in
tyranny and have sold us out. The government fleeces us, the church fleeces
us. That's why Christians are called sheep. Because with sheep, you fleece
them. And then you eat them. And sheep, of course, are the dumbest animals
in the world, and any farmer will tell you that. It's true. Anyone who knows
anything about animals and animal husbandly will tell you that the most
incredibly stupidest animal the world has ever known is a sheep. They cannot
find their way out of a paper bag, and they will follow anybody.
PT: So what you're saying is, "Wake up, and don't be eaten."
JM: Right. Somewhere along the line, we've got to take back not only our
country, but our spirituality.
PT: So you are saying that we need to take
back our spirituality and our country from a powerful, shadowy movement that
is slowly encroaching on us. How can we do that?
JM: As I've said, we need
to wake up, first, because people don't even know we've lost these things.
To stay asleep, all you have to do as an American is what you've always done
nothing. All your masters have to do is what they've always done and sooner
or later, their timetable for taking you over, completely destroying your
freedom, your country, your spirituality, will have come and their goal will
PT: So we need to wake up first. In The Book Your Church
Doesn't Want You to Read, it mentions Joan of Arc, saying after her church
and country had totally discredited her, then killed her by burning her
alive, the church turned around 500 years later and made her a saint. They
did not accept her contribution until later.
JM: This church, government,
and the forces behind it are acting in the same way today and won't see
their mistakes until later. They are the enemy of not only humans, but of
God. I suppose we are doomed to repeat history until we get it right.
You spoke about forces "behind the scenes." What is going on behind the
scenes that we are now all up against?
JM: We are in the hands of very
powerful Secret Societies and Fraternal Orders that are bent on having
complete power over us and the world as a whole. This goal involves the
destruction of America's way of life, our way of thinking, and our freedom.
Our government is being manipulated by something higher that is why I've
said we've been "sold out." Government was set up in this country to do one
that is, to do for the people, generally, that which they can't do for
themselves. This means, more specifically, to provide for our protection as
a nation, to provide for an orderly distribution of goods, and for law and
order. That's all. Not coming into your bedroom, telling you what you can
think, or read, or say on the radio, where you can go, what health foods or
vitamins you can buy, where your kids go to school, what medications you can
get, all of these things are part of a tyrannical control system that is
seeping into our lives. Our government and America in general is definitely
and it could be proven in a court of law definitely in the hands of Secret
Societies and Fraternal Orders that trace back to the Middle Ages
Knighthoods, for example,
The Knights Templars. And this is where banking,
and money, comes in. When you go into a bank today and do any kind of
transaction, borrowing money, using a checking account, anything, it was all
started around the year 900 when banks began on an international basis. This
was started by an organization called "The Order of the Knights of the
Temple of Solomon," or "The Order of Knights Templar." And today, all
banking is in the hands of Knights Templars Masonic Orders, Freemasons. One
of the concordant orders of Freemasonry was called "The Knights of the Order
of the Hospital," and they were called "Knights Hospitalers." They were the
Masonic Order that founded, organizes, directs, and finances Hospitals and
health care, throughout the world. That is why you'll see hospitals using
various Masonic symbols or emblems, if you look closely enough.
So these same people, overall, control banking, hospitals, and even the
entertainment we see. They finance and organize your media, so you will know
only what they want you to know.
PT: There's a lot more of that than people realize.
JM: Absolutely. And you
know, Merlin and the old magicians of Celtic England always used their magic
wands, and these magic wands were always made out of holly wood. And that's
why today we still have Holly-wood, working its "magic" on us — showing us
in movies how to view things, what we should think, or just offering us a
big box office diversion. Hollywood is in California, but the money and the
brains are on the east coast, among maybe four or five families, that
control almost all of Hollywood from New York. So we're talking about some
very powerful families, that are left unnamed, who own and operate almost
all of Hollywood. All major media entertainment companies have their
corporate offices in New York, and that is not just coincidence.
PT: Do you
feel that our country has been deliberately sold out because there is kind
of a conspiracy going on for a one-world government?
JM: Oh, there's no
doubt in my mind about that. I think even the most ignorant people today,
the most ill-informed, pretty well have figured that out. I think it's
PT: So banks and money have a strong hand in that?
JM: They don't have a hand in it, they are the culprits. The international
monetary system, set up earlier by The Knights Templar, have in mind the
total eradication of freedom, and liberty, across the whole world. And if
America goes down, all freedom and liberty in the world will go down with
it. America is the last stronghold on the Earth for the opportunity to be
free. These Secret Societies (including The Knights Templars and Knights
Hospitalers) are feverishly working behind the scenes to destroy our morals,
our ethics, and our country, and to ultimately bring about a "New World
Order" "Novus Ordo Seclorum," which is of course found on the back of a
dollar bill. What's interesting in relation to that is the pyramid on the
back of the dollar. Jesus is twice referred in the New Testament as the
"chief cornerstone that the builders rejected." The apostles were referred
to as cornerstones, but "chief cornerstone" in Greek is different from
"cornerstone," and that is how Jesus was referred. The chief cornerstone is
the triangle that sits on top of a pyramid. And in the Book of Isaiah 19:19,
God says, "I will have a temple and an altar in the midst of the land of
Egypt" (It is a "temple and pillar" in the King James Bible). That "temple
and altar" is one thing, not two, because the scripture goes on to say, "And
it shall be as a symbol and an emblem for God in the land of Egypt." What
we're talking about, this "it," is the Great Pyramid in Egypt because the
pyramid does sit directly in the midst of Egypt, on the border between upper
and lower Egypt. So the pyramid, according to the Bible, Isaiah 19:19, was
put there by God it was God's will that that pyramid be there. Second,
is referred to as "the chief cornerstone," which means, in Greek, "the peak
of a pyramid." What I'm saying is there's a profound depth to the symbolism
on a dollar bill, and the words. An additional phrase on it, above the
pyramid, is "Annuit Coeptis," meaning "Our enterprise has been crowned with
success." This project or enterprise is The New Order of the World "Novus
Ordo Seclorum" printed directly beneath it. This is an example of the
tremendous amount of esoteric knowledge that has been kept from us. It is
time that we turn off the television and the basketball, the football, the
volleyball, the ping pong ball, and all the other ball games, and step back
from the alcohol, all the entertainments, and look seriously at who we are
and where we're going because wherever it is that we're going (and it
doesn't look good), we're going to get there real quick. This country is in
serious trouble, but people are being told that everything is fine.
PT: Well, when people are suddenly deprived of all of their diversions, then
they'll finally get the message we've been had. But are people that blind,
not to see it beforehand?
JM: Not blind, just bigoted. The old saying was that "When they came to kill
Catholics I didn't bother because I wasn't a Catholic. And when they came to
take away the Jews, I didn't say anything because 1 wasn't a Jew. And when
they came to take away Protestants I wasn't a Protestant, so by the time
they came for me, there was no one else left to help, and to protect me. "
The point is, we should put aside all the bigotry, prejudice, and stupidity.
In this country, we are all one people, and should act that way. We need to
realize that we all face the same danger. Look at the leaders in America,
the ones who are supposedly spokesmen for the people. In every case you will
always find that these officials do not speak for the good of the people
they represent, they are out there for themselves, only.
PT: The lobbyists are just paying them off, and they do what they're told to
JM: That's exactly right. So somewhere along the line, we have to come
together as one people, without the corrupted "help" of the politicians. Or
the church. Those who can see this happening, and are willing to act, I
believe have a cosmic companionship. Martin Luther King said it best. He
said, "In this struggle, we will be successful because we have cosmic
companionship." I am totally convinced that that is precisely the case here.
People who are standing up now, in this time, for freedom and for human
dignity, do have a cosmic companionship with the Creator that gave us life.
And I think somewhere along the line, the enemies are going to be exposed.
No lie can live forever. Plato once said that, "The price good people pay
for non-involvement in public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." There has
never been a time that we have been ruled by evil men, if not today. And
they work not only out in front, and recognized, but also from behind the
scenes, in secret. Yet, this government has a very powerful enemy that it is
frightened to death of. It is not Russia, or the return of Naziism, or
middle eastern fanatics. The most dangerous enemy that the United States
government is facing today, and it knows it, is you. You as a spiritual
individual with your own rights, freedoms, and liberties to be your own self
and do your own thinking. Because these things are being slowly eroded away,
in hopes that we won't notice.
PT: Our educational system is also being
eroded. Much lower SAT's, kids don't know many simple geographical facts,
the list goes on and on. Do you think there's an intentional "dumbing down"
of our society taking place?
JM: I sure do. The powers that be are keeping
us docile with endless diversions -movies, television, entertainments like
mindless Nintendo and computer games, drugs, alcohol, they hand out condoms
in some schools. And when you get kids while they're young, they develop bad
learning habits and short attention spans. A ton of information has also
surfaced connecting certain intelligence agencies with the drug trade into
America. And who does drugs? Mostly young people. There's no doubt about an
intentional dumbing down, you can't possibly get around that. And when these
people grow up, as a generation, nobody will be smart enough to know what to
stand up for. Just think about the "Little House on the Prairie" days, back
in the 1800's and early 1900's, when the schoolrooms were one little
schoolroom out in the middle of the prairie with all the different grades
And out of these meager beginnings, out of these schoolhouses, came the
great captains and kings of industry, the great poets, the great
mathematicians, the greatest minds that built America and made it the
strongest and most profoundly important country in the world. And today, we
have the greatest schools, with air conditioning and all the computers and,
collectively, they can't find their way home. They are the most ignorant and
ill-informed generation this country has ever produced.
It's been said that 50 per cent of high school graduates can't find America
on an unlabeled world map. Now that's frightening.
PT: The NEA, the National Education Association, could be held largely
responsible. It is among the four most powerful associations in the country.
It funds the education in America, controls the labor, and is said to be
more of a political group (instead of a union), concerned with only power
and money not education. Dr. William Coulson helped found it about 30 years
ago, but totally renounces it today because of its "Values Modification"
agenda. This new agenda seems directly linked to the growth of drug use and
sexual misconduct by young people. The NEA's spending has increased more
than 300 per cent since I960, but student performance has plummeted. The NEA
controls virtually all public education in America today, but doesn't seem
to care about the kids. People say it's power and money they want. An
obvious tie-in to the conspiracy against America?
JM: Absolutely. Our children are being systematically reconditioned into
stupidity. And it's working. The kids don't seem like they want to learn.
PT: They'd rather go home and watch MTV.
JM: Yes, or Big Top Pee-Wee or Hulk Hogan. So what we're faced with is a
very serious collapse of Western civilization. And no one wants to admit it.
And consequently, like all other ancient empires have found out, there comes
a time of reckoning. Our country is going the same route as the fall of
Rome, and if it happens, the world stands a chance of being cast into
another Dark Ages.
PT: But aren't there forces within our government that are really on our
side? I remember a very reliable source from within our government who went
by the name of "Mr. Mike." You spent a day with him once. He detailed how
there were two factions behind the scenes in our government, one working for
a way to salvage or preserve our freedoms, and the other on working to
accomplish the kind of world dominance you've detailed.
JM: Yes, I'm aware that there are others who are awake and aware, and who
are allying themselves with each other to do something. I don't know who
those organizations might be, but I do know from my travels around the
country that many of the average people I lecture to know that what I am
saying is true, on a semi-grass roots level, and they understand the
seriousness of the problems we are facing. And I am sure that this
government is absolutely frightened to death that these people will turn off
the television and get organized. And that's the one thing they cannot
afford to allow to happen.
PT: Not only getting organized, but educated.
JM: Yes, that's the most
dangerous thing you can do educate people. Because when people become
educated, you cannot control them, you cannot frighten them. People who are
educated know their own power, and don't surrender it to others. I prefer to
die someday on my feet, rather than on my knees. An idea who's time has come
is individuality and freedom, and understanding that both religion and
government in America are the enemies of all good people. All sincerely
decent, good people have as their greatest enemy this government and the
people behind this government who are manipulating it, and the churches,
PT: What would you say to the people who are the real patriotic types who
would tell you, "America, love it or leave it. Why don't you just get the
hell out if you think the government and churches are the enemy?"
JM: They must have said about the same thing in Rome, about the fourth
century, when everything was falling apart. I'm sure there were many people
who said, "Well, it's still Rome, it's still the greatest and most powerful
place in the world," and I hear people saying that today about America.
PT: Didn't Nero play the fiddle while Rome was burning?
JM: Yeah, well, he might as well have played the fiddle. If he didn't, he
should have. We're playing the fiddle right now I think that was a symbolic
story. I don't think Nero ever played a fiddle to start with. It means that
while the entire Roman empire was collapsing from the weight of its own
filth and corruption, the emperor did nothing. The president of our country
does nothing; he does nothing because he can do nothing. He is nothing more
than the slave of a slave state, the powers that be, behind his "throne" are
the masters of this country. He is just a symbol and a figurehead who has as
much power as you do. Actually, he has less power. And what you have to
remember is that the president of America is not your president, legally.
The United States federal government is a foreign corporation. According to
international maritime admiralty law, the federal government of America is a
foreign corporation, in respect to the states. It is a total, separate unit
of power in this country, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the separate
states. It is a corporation, founded under international corporate law. And
corporate law says that all corporations must have a president and a vice
president. The federal government in DC is nothing more than a business. All
the wars we've ever fought were nothing more than hostile takeovers (or
attempts at such) by very powerful monetary figures working behind the
scenes, using this corporation called the federal government of the United
States. It's nothing but a company, and a war is nothing but a hostile
PT: So can we look at this and say we have just contracted out the services
of this corporation to run our country?
JM: That's exactly right. So when you accept a social security card or other
federal I.D., what you have done is you've made yourself a franchise. You
are then a member of the federal corporation, living in a separate state,
and are legally a franchisee of the federal system in Washington. DC. That's
why when you pay taxes for the state of California you pay the Franchise Tax
Board. When you get your bill at the end of the year for your federal taxes,
write out a check and send the check to "The U.S. Dept. of the Treasury."
And they will send it back to you with a form letter, telling you that you
do not owe the Treasury of the United States anything. You owe this money to
The Federal Reserve Corporation. It is a private corporation. Your federal
taxes do not go to pay government in this country, they go to the
corporation just mentioned. The federal tax system came into existence in
1934-35. America became the most powerful monetary nation on Earth from 1776
to 1935without a federal income tax, without a state income tax, without any
PT: Is that when the gold standard was done away with?
JM: That's right.
Incidentally, that's precisely the year that those symbols and slogans were
put there on the back of the dollar bill. Because once they got the Federal
Reserve into position, locked into position illegally, but locked into a
position of power, then they could put on the dollar "Annuit Coeptis," "Our
Enterprise is now a Success," meaning, "We have now taken over America, and
America was sound asleep and didn't even know it." So what I'm saying is
that we have all been had. We've been had politically, and religiously.
Until such time that we wake up, we are headed toward total and complete
disaster. I hate to end on such a down note, but those are the facts and we
need to wake up.
PT: Jordan, I'd like to end by giving you a quote from
Thomas Merton, who was a Roman Catholic monk. He said, "The most dangerous
man in the world is the contemplative who is guided by nobody. He trusts his
own visions. He obeys the attractions of an inner voice, but will not listen
to other men. He identifies the will of God with his own heart." Jordan
Maxwell, you are a dangerous man.
JM: Thank you.
Back to Contents
INTERVIEWS PART 2
ON RELIGION AND
Hello, I'm Jordan Maxwell, this is a transcript from two separate interviews
that were conducted not too long ago. The woman who interviewed me was Rita
Dyson the man was Ralph Walker.
The response to these interviews when they
first aired was so overwhelming that we wanted to include them in this book.
Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.
Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in, but
religion attempts to strive beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us info
RD: Jordan, you've got to tell me about yourself.
JM: Well, my grandfather was a senator, my great-grandfather
was a congressman, I have two living uncles that are federal judges, so I grew up hearing
this kind of conversation in the family, about intrigue and politics, and
the behind the scenes stuff going on in world religion. At the ripe old age
of 17 I decided that I wanted to find out if there was a bottom to this issue
and I began my research and study into theology and all of the arcane and
occult theologies. I was fascinated by some of the most powerful movements
in the world.
But the problem you run into with religion and theology is
that there are two kinds of facts that we have in theology, the kind you
look up and the kind you make up. And so much of what we've been told and
led to believe in theology and religion, especially in the western world, is
nothing more than political propaganda. Over and above the political aspect
of western religion, I'm also fascinated with the general anthology of
By anthology I mean things that most people would not know about
religion, things the church would rather you not know. For instance, one of
my favorite topics is called astro-theology, which is the world's oldest
religion and dates back to 5,000 to 7,000 years before Christ. At that time,
the worship of the heavens dominated the world. I don't believe there are
too many people today in our western civilization that have really looked at
where their religion, their ideas, and concepts, really come from.
all aware of how other people can be wrong in what they believe. We have a
theology and other people have a mythology. According to our own narrow,
personal viewpoints, other people are wrong because they don't share our
concepts and beliefs, and that's because they don't understand. They're
wrong, but they don't understand.
I am saying that we can all be wrong. There is not one human creature on the
earth that is so well-informed that they could possibly not be wrong about
something. All I'm asking my audience to do is to look at the facts of where
western religion has come from, and look at the behind-the-scenes
connections between government and religion.
Let me give you a quick example
between tying government and religion together. When you go into most
churches today you'll see that the altar is three tiers high, it's three
degrees high. In most churches they have a fence and agate and only the
priest can go through the gate up onto the altar. When the priest comes out
he's dressed in a long robe and everyone stands out of respect. It's the
same as in any courtroom, when they say "all rise," when the judge comes
out. You have the people of the congregation out in the courtroom, you have
the fence and the gate, and only the attorneys can go through and speak for
And the bench is three tiers high, the three tiers high in both the
church and the courtroom represent the first three degrees of freemasonry.
When the judge comes out he's dressed in a long black robe, just as the
priest is dressed in a long black robe, just as you will be dressed in a
long robe when you graduate from a university or college. The connections
are continual. The judge can sit and look down on you. and represents the
law, spelled L-A-W. You need to look at where the "law" comes from.
of course, the priest can look down on the audience and to the people in the
church he represents God, which is the law.
RD: So you're saying that people should start looking at things with a
different eye that what they're used to. People just take it for granted
that this has always been, and this is the way it is.
RD: But there is an origin for every one of these things.
JM: Gerald Massey, one of the greatest Egyptologists that ever lived, wrote
that "They will find it difficult, those who have accepted the authority as
truth, rather than the truth as authority." So, I'm saying that that's
what's happened to us as a civilization in the West. I'm not interested that
much in the East tonight. I'm interested in our western way of life; the
religion, the philosophies that guide our lives, the mere fact that in this
country in America when you run afoul of the law, you have broken the law,
just as Moses broke the law. It goes back to Judaism. And of course the
sheriff has the six-pointed badge, which represents the Star of David, or
the six-pointed hexagram. All of our judicial proceedings in court are based
on the old common law of England, or Britannia. It's a fascinating story
once people understand that our government is based on religion and we
didn't even know it.
RD: Okay. You have such a vast amount of information that I have to try and
hold you back a minute, because I want to get to other information.
RD: Let me ask this. How would you classify yourself? Are you religious, are
you spiritual, are you agnostic, what are you?
JM: I am a common man, an ordinary man; in the pursuit of an extraordinary
subject. I consider myself to be one who appreciates and will fight for
RD: You are a truth seeker?
JM: I think that's probably the best way to term it. I am an extremely
spiritual person in that I hold very high spiritual morals and ethics. I
believe in a very powerful spiritual force that dominates and overshadows
this world. Christians call it God, others may call it something else. I
have a very high respect for spirituality. I have no time for religion as
such. Anything that is organized by man, quite certainly is not touching
god. I think that we have a direct connection with our creator, that great
spiritual God-force, we don't need another man to intervene for us.
RD: Okay, let's say that someone may say "How dare you question the Bible.
How dare you speak like this, you must be a demon or something." How would
you answer that?
JM: I would say the same thing has been said of Solomon Rushdie, "How dare
you question The Koran. How dare you question Karl Marx and the Communist
Manifesto. Or Mao and the Little Red Book of Mao. How dare you question
authority!" I'm saying that the man we read about in the New Testament, the
one called Jesus, if he taught us anything, it was to question authority.
Any time you give away your spirituality and your authority, and you do it
yourself, you know, no one comes and puts your hands behind your back, and
forces to give up you spirituality and your individual freedom, and your
right to be a human being and decide for yourself; you do that yourself. And
when you do that, and you give up your sovereignty to the government, to the
church, to a religion, to a book, to a concept, to anything, you are
enslaving yourself. All I'm asking the public to do is to do a little
research, see if what I'm saying is wrong, and judge for yourself. I'm not
advocating anything or running for any political office, and I'm not trying
to start my own church. What I would like to see happen is a spiritual
revolution in this country, where people say "just say no," just say no to
organized religion, just say no to organized government, just say no to
tyranny. I don't care where it is, or what color it is, just say no to
bigotry, ignorance, ill-informed stupidity, just say no, from here on out.
RD: But if...
JM: The point I'm making is that you need to do your homework.
You need to study and find out where things came from.
RD: But what happens
when they do find out? What happens to those whose whole life has been the
Bible? There's so many people that are kept going everyday by the Bible.
What will they have to replace it?
JM: Ask the Russians, in Russia today,
what is it like when you find out you've been hood-winked, that your
government was not the most powerful or the most wonderful government on
earth and now it has totally collapsed? What do you do now? You trusted, you
brought up your children, you wasted your entire life, and you went along to
get along. And now what happens? Your entire world is collapsing around you,
and why? Because you didn't do your homework, and you didn't stand up for
what was right when you could have. You went along to get along, because it
was comfortable at the time, and now it's very uncomfortable. And I'm saying
that's what we all have to do is look at the uncomfortable fact that nothing
is permanently on this earth.
RD: That nothing is permanently on this earth.
JM: That's right. Things constantly change. The Russians should have seen it
coming, and who was really controlling them. Maybe we can learn something
from what Russia has experienced. In 1922 Winston Churchill spoke to the
London Press and said, "From the days of Spartacus, Wieskhopf, Karl Marx,
Trotsky, Rosa Luxemberg, and Emma Goldman, this world conspiracy has been
steadily growing. This conspiracy played a definite recognizable role in the
tragedy of the French revolution. It has been the mainspring of every
subversive movement during the 19th century. And now at last, this band of
extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of
Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their head
and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire." And look at
where those "masters" brought them. into chaos, and now leading them into
what is hoped to be The New World Order. That's why the Soviet Union
collapsed. In the Washington Post (May 1991) Brent Scowcroft announced that
"We believe we are creating the beginning of a New World Order coming out of
the collapse of the U.S.-Soviet antagonisms." What I'm saying is that it was
planned, and a one world government could never function before that.
RD: That's amazing. On another subject, in the book you were part of, The
Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to Read, they have here Bible models,
Bible morality. And this was Thomas Jefferson that wrote this. Who was
Jehovah? A being of terrific character, cruel, vindictive, capricious, and
unjust. And then also, who was Abraham? An insane barbarian patriarch, who
married his sister and denied his wife. Who was Jacob? Another patriarch who
won God's favor by deceiving his father, cheating his uncle, and robbing his
brother. This is Bible morality.
JM: Now understand, I didn't write that. Other authors have contributed to
the book. But the point I wish to make is that one does not even need to
read the book.
JM: One can just read the Bible and put flesh on
things that happened in the Bible. Think about it.
RD: What I just mentioned is in the Bible?
JM: Of course it is. Now let me ask you something. Are you aware that there
were fifteen other major religions, this is history now...
...not conjecture, history. There were fifteen major theological religious
movements before Christianity that taught the same identical story. Of a
messiah who came to the earth, who was born in a manger, who died on a
cross, who had twelve apostles, who died with a crown of thorns. Were you
aware that there were fifteen major religions that had the same identical
teachings of Christianity? Most people aren't. And I'm very suspect of a
sixteenth religion which is copied off of fifteen previous religions, and I
am told that this one is the truth. I become very suspect. That is the way I
am as a teacher and as a researcher and writer. And I tell you something
else I'm very suspect of and that is the connection between government and
politics today in America. I think both should be investigated. We need to
look behind the scenes of our authorities in the world of religion,
politics, and money.
RD: When that happens, people will have a renaissance for themselves.
JM: Let us hope so.
RD: And a whole new type of person can come about.
JM: I think you will agree that that's what we need. Our country is in
trouble, our families are in trouble, our whole human race is in trouble.
Basically we can boil it down to three problems that we all share on this
earth; religion, politics, and money. And I'm telling you that the three are
not separate, they arc all one, because in the ancient world the king always
represented not only temple power, but also heavenly power, he was the
connection between the people and God. That is why you can not get married
today without a blessing of the government, and in many cases the church. We
arc told there is a division between church and state. No such division
exists. If you want to start a church you must get a 501c3 permit from the
government, you must get pennies, you must pay the fees, you must do all of
these legal things, go through the red tape of the government, before you
can set up a church. Now, in this church, with all the government's
permission and permits, you can not get married in this country unless you
have a license first, from the state.
Then you can go to the minister and be married. And then, if your marriage
doesn't work out, you don't go to God, you go to a judge, in a courtroom.
I'm telling you there's something going on here between religion and
politics, and it's money, it's power We need to be willing to look at what's
been going on in this country for over 200 years, and be open minding about
it. Remember, your mind is a like a parachute, it will not work if it's not
open. We can be exploited if we're not willing to open our minds and open
our hearts and say, "let's look at the facts." The fact is that all over the
world people are being led by religious leaders. Ayatollah Khomeini and
Saddam Hussein are just two of many religious leaders that have been
fanatically dangerous. And in this country we had put things on the backs of
our cars, and yellow ribbons in our trees, to fanatically support our troops
in the Middle East, when we didn't even know what they were really doing
RD: Do you think religion and politics has something to do with this New
World Order, this global unification we've heard so much about?
JM: That you can bet on.
RD: You do?
JM: I think I could make a very good case for that in a court of law, if
given the opportunity. Let's look at the symbolism going on here. Like the
Washington Monument in Washington, DC. The Washington Monument is an
Egyptian obelisk, which stands for the male erection. That is its original
symbolism. It connects right down to "the waters of life" that you see at
its base, over to the oval office. The oval is the female, the Washington
Monument is the male. It has to do with religion, it has to do with sex, it
has to do with political power. And we take these instruments, and we take
these symbols, and we think they are so marvelous. Do your homework and
you'll find out that so much of what we consider to be holy and righteous is
nothing more than sex, religion, and money. And most people pretty much know
that, but no one has bothered to confront the establishment. I hope to do
that. I want to confront the establishment because I believe that the truth
is an idea whose time has come. I think we've all been manipulated and
exploited and it's time we looked at the real truth.
RD: I think that a lot of people are walking around in a daze. There are so
many things happening that they don't know where to turn.
RD: And I think that many of them don't feel really happy with what they are
receiving in church, when they do go to church.
feel something is wrong.
JM: It's because something is wrong. The things which we have been told are
not true. You can prove this in any good library. All one has to do is go to
the library and spend all day there, reading theology, and you will find
that the world has known for thousands of years that these stories are
nothing more than stories. As a matter of fact, Rita, the Bible is called
the greatest story ever told. The greatest story, not the greatest
collection of facts, not the most paramount document on Earth, it's the
greatest story ever told. It's a story. One must know how to read the
symbols and the emblems, and the terms.
RD: The symbols are in the Bible too?
JM: The symbols are in the Bible everywhere. Did you know, for instance,
that the Book of Revelation was not written by Christians? The Book of
Revelation was around for at least 500 years before Christianity ever came
into existence. The Book of Revelation was already in circulation, therefore
no John ever wrote the Book of Revelation. His name was Ion, from the Ionian
Sea, but when translating from Latin, when you change the letter "I" to "J"
it becomes J-o-n, or Jon.
However, when you translate it to English, J-o-n becomes J-o-h-n, or John.
So today we're told that John wrote the Book of Revelation. No such John
ever wrote the Book of Revelation. It was written long before Christ was
RD: This is just earthshaking.
JM: Wait until the real truth comes out about religion and politics in
America and you're going to see the earth shake.
RD: Are you ready for the tomatoes? Are you ready for that?
JM: I've already gotten those many times.
RD: Okay. Now in the book The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to Read, you
have an article entitled Astro-theology.
JM: Yes. I co-edited the book with
Tim Leedom, but also did a chapter on astro-theology.
RD: And I wanted to
mention Steve Allen, the famous entertainer and former Tonight Show host,
who also wrote in this book.
JM: Yes, Steve Allen is a brilliant writer and
is a part of our book. He and I became friends since the book's release. RD:
We opened up with that quote from Thomas Paine. You must like Thomas Paine
because you also quote him in your writing.
JM: Yes, I think he was an absolutely incredible man.
RD: He wrote: "The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun,
in which they put a man whom they called Christ in the place of the sun and
pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the sun." Why did
you select Thomas Paine? And tell me more about this astro-theology.
JM: Because that is a classic comment about astro-theology. Astro-theology
is the basis for all religion in the world, period.
RD: Astro, what does
JM: Astro-theology. Theology is the worship of a religion, and astro is the
worship of the heavens. From as far back in history as we can go, man has
always worshiped the heavens. That's why we're even told in western
civilization that when you die, you'll go to heaven. And of course, the
interesting point that Thomas Paine was making is the same one that I
continue to make that the whole concept of the son, S-O-N, God's son, goes
directly back to the concept of God's Sun, S-U-N, being the risen savior.
Because the sun is the risen savior. It does rise. And according to the
Egyptians, God's Sun, S-U-N, had an evil brother, he was the prince of
darkness. He came out at night to rule the world when God's Sun died and
went away, and the world was in hands of the prince of darkness. His name
was Set, and he came out at sun-set. The Egyptians said that the newborn sun
that came up every morning was Horus, and they would come out at the temples
of Karnak and the temples at Thebes and Heliopolis in the morning (as they
still do in the Islamic faith), and greet the coming of the new sun. We do
it at Easter. We have Easter SUN-rise services.
JM: Yes. Horus-risen. That's where we get the word
"horizon." There are fifteen major religions in the world before
Christianity that have taught the same thing. It is a very ancient story,
coming from the greatest story ever told. I'm not saying there's not good
spirituality in the Bible. I am saying it has been twisted and used by
political powers for a political agenda to keep us ignorant, ill-informed,
and unread. They keep most people dependent on the Lord to come back and
help us, when in fact there is no Lord coming back at all. The keys are
education, knowledge, and your own personal spirituality; and investigating
what the story is really about. That's the only real salvation that we have
RD: Okay, but what about Adam and Eve? There's no Adam and Eve? What about
JM: No, that's why the Hebrews do not take part in Christianity. The Jews do
not accept Jesus as the Messiah. Many Christians jump to the conclusion that
the Jews don't accept Jesus because they hated the Messiah. No, no such
thing is true. The reason why Jews do not accept Christianity is really
rather simple. They know the story. And they know it's just a story. It's
the gentiles that don't know this. What we need to do is wake up and find
out that this is a story and what the story is telling us.
RD: Now, in our last discussion you were saying that the government talks
about the separation of church and state, but that is not true.
JM: I don't believe that there's a separation.
RD: The government is very much involved with?...
JM: Religion. Yes. Actually, if you go back to the very beginnings of
mankind there's always been this coexistence between government and
religion, between church and state. And of course in all the ancient empires
the king was also the mediator between god and man. So he wasn't just the
king of the state, he was also the liaison between his people and God. Up
until the time of the French Revolution, that was always the case, even in
Europe, with the Papacy. Today, of course, we in America like to believe
that we have a division between state and church, but it is my proposition,
and my idea, that no such division exists. That the church as we know it
today in western civilization, is nothing more than a tool and a counterpart
to government. It is like two hands, government and religion, both helping
the one mind to do its work. So that's what I'm intending to do to enlighten
people to where government, ideas, concepts, and belief systems have come
from, and where theology and religion come from. I wish to show the
connections behind the scenes of how we, because we're unread in the field,
are being manipulated and exploited by government and religion. You asked me
before what kind of reception I get. I get a very powerful positive
response. When I was in New York, on ABC-New York with Bob Grant, I was
supposed to do a half-hour program, but ended up doing a two-hour interview.
The response was overwhelmingly positive. Many people in our country know
instinctively that there's something going on in big government, big
business, big money, and big religion. And everyone seems to know that, but
no one as of yet has gone into and brought out the facts surrounding
religion and government into our country, and the monetary connection.
RD: Okay, Jordan. So, what if people begin to see what you are saying, that
the moral guidelines of our government are based on religion? Now, if you
take away the religion, what will happen to the moral guidelines? We won't
JM: Let's make a distinction here between religion and spirituality. I'm not
talking about spirituality. That's something we need to keep. I'm a highly
spiritual person. I believe in a divine God or creator, I am totally
convinced that there is a divine essence to us, so I have no problem with
RD: What makes you convinced that we do have a divine spirituality?
Well, I think there are far too many things that happen to all human beings,
that we know that there's more to life than just us. I think that all of us
have had many experiences, every one of us, have had experiences that prove
there is some sort of spiritual dynamic to our life. I myself have had many
experiences in a spiritual way to convince me that I am not here on this
earth by myself, and that there are spirits here. I believe in a God, or a
creator. I don't have a problem with spirituality, I have a very big problem
with government, money, and religion.
RD: Yes, it somewhat contaminates the
beauty of the divine essence that is there.
JM: Absolutely. No doubt about it. We have the best politicians and
religious leaders that money can buy, and I'm tired of that.
RD: Can I ask
you something? Do you believe in reincarnation? And what does the Bible say
JM: I think that you can make a good case for this, that there was much in
the Old and New Testament to support reincarnation, but was taken out during
the Middle Ages. We know that happened, we know that many scriptures were
deleted, and some things were put in that were not in the original. So I
think that the scriptures dealing with reincarnation were taken out
purposely because the church felt that it would be harmful to the people, to
think that they would come back, and that they come back again. Because if
you keep coming back in other lifetimes, then why do you need to contribute
to the church today? Why do you need to even go to church today, or even
hear the priest, if you're going to come back the next time and do it over
again anyway? So I think the church said no more of this, we have to take
that out and let everyone believe that they have only one time through and
that's it, so you have to be in subjection to religion.
RD: That right there shows the government being involved with church
JM: The history of Europe is filled with the Papacy and the Pope of
Rome being involved with the kings and the princes of Europe. And, of course
that is referred to as the "old" order of the world, the old world order.
And in America we have our own religio-political foundations, and we call
our ourselves a "new" world order, and that's even on the dollar bill. So
there's a lot of connections behind the scenes between major religion, big
money, and government. And that is what the book is about, The Book Your
Church Doesn't Want You To Read. It's a general anthology on all the things
in religion that the church doesn't want you to know about.
RD: Now, as we
explore this, what happens to people as they become more enlightened?. I can
not think of people never having a church in their life. Church seems to
mean so much, and to give so much more to people. I mean, how would the
church be changed? Would we ever have a church again?
JM: Did they have
churches in Adam and Eve's day? I mean, when creation first began, with the
ancient peoples in the ancient world, did they have churches? What I'm
saying is there's a very big difference between religion, which requires a
church, and the clergy, and money, and organization; as opposed to
spirituality within your individual self, something spiritual between
yourself and your divine creator. I don't believe there is a necessity for a
church, synagogue, or whatever. I think that the spirituality is between you
and your creator. So, I don't see a need for the church.
RD: I think I kind
of pickup what your saying. Is that what you want to bring back the essence
and the innocence of people?
JM: Yes, absolutely.
RD: And not have all of
this organized religion.
JM: And not have it function like entertainment, like Entertainment Tonight.
I see nothing spiritual in church television and church radio, I see nothing
more than Madison Avenue's promotion of religion that in all ways, and in
every way, supports government.
RD: That would be a major metamorphosis for people.
RD: If that was to ever happen.
JM: I think that's going to happen. I think we are being forced, by events
in the world, to wake up and begin to question our foundations and our
belief systems. We expect the Arabs to do so, we expect the Hindus to
examine their foundations and see that they need to explore what they
believe. And it's very good for everyone else in the world to examine what
they believe. Why isn't it good for us to do the same?
RD: So with Freemasonry, is that where symbolism started coming about?
JM: Yes, let me explain why I got into symbolism. As I mentioned earlier, my
mother had an uncle who worked in the Vatican's Secretary of State's Office.
Every few years he would come back and sit around for days, talking about
all the intrigue that was going on behind the scenes of religion and
politics. It was a very interesting conversation. And I would hear this kind
of conversation where he would talk about symbols, emblems, secret
societies, fraternal orders, and the wars and revolutions. In relation to
the symbols, all of these emblems and symbols mean some thing, but so many
people are unaware. I mean, the Bible has Jesus saying that many will look
with their eyes but not see, and that is certainly true. People look at
symbols all day long and have no idea in the world what they mean. Symbols
are very important, and if you don't think so, watch someone wearing a
swastika go into a synagogue and observe the reaction that the Jews will
have when they see the swastika. This is because symbols mean something.
They have very powerful meanings, but most of us are ignorant as to what
most of these symbols are.
RD: I've often wondered about the swastika. Isn't it like a cross?
JM: Actually, it's originally Hindu. The swastika of Germany was a Hindu
symbol, and then it generated down until finally the Nazis picked it up,
like many other nations and peoples did. The American Indians and the
Buddhists also use the swastika as a sacred symbol. I was also going to make
mention of the foundations of western religion. We know that western
religion is based on a far older Bible, the Bible of the Old Testament. Even
further back, if you go back into the most ancient history of the world,
especially in the Middle East, you will see that the volcano was one of the
many things that was worshiped. The volcano was very important because it
represented life and creation, and it had a sexual connotation.
JM: That's why today in most men's rooms, and hotels, and
restaurants there will always be a triangle on the door. Triangle being the
pyramid, or pyramid, coming from pyra, meaning fire, and mid, meaning
middle. The fire of sexual generation is in the middle of the human body,
that is why the volcano always represented sex, or the coming of life and
the fire of life that brings new life to the world. So the volcano was a
very important symbol to the ancient peoples of the world. The volcano, like
any other impressive or fearful aspect of nature, had become an object of
worship for human beings from the time of the earliest stone age. Yet the
original Yahweh, which was one of the gods of the Old Testament, seems to
have begun as a volcano god. Mount Sinai, where Moses encountered him, was
the seat of the Middianite god, and in the Middianite's earliest homeland he
was identified with the local Moon god "Sin," which is where we get the name
for the mountain in the Middle East, Sinai, or Sinai. It comes from the old
Moon god Sin, after whom the mountain was named. The Bible describes the
appearance of Yahweh as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by
night, as found in Exodus 13: 21-22.The word volcano comes from the Latin
volcano god Vulcan, or Vulcanus, derived from the old Cretan deity Velchanos.
Now here we have the pillar of cloud by day, and the pillar of fire by
night, and the Israelites in the desert with their representation of God. In
Job 38 we find that thunder, in Hebrew, is considered the voice of God.
Thunder, in Hebrew, is called voices, or the voice of God. In other
references on Job 38 it talks about the storm. It says that the storm and
clouds are in God's tent, which gather as the thunder, as the voice of
Yahweh. The voice of Yahweh is roaring, they descend and God shoots his
arrows of lightning. So we're talking about the God of the Old Testament
with his thunder and his arrows of lightning. In Hebrew, this reference
states that "God thunders wonderfully with his voice." So now we see that
thunder and lightning are connected to the old volcano god, the god of the
It is said that at Mount Sinai Jehovah performed signs, the mountain smoked
and trembled all over, and many now heard the proof that what Moses had made
known in God's name was actually the word of God. The Israelites were at
Mount Sinai, which is always pictured time and again, in many biblical
texts, as a volcano. Jehovah led the sons of Israel to the mountain named
Sinai, and there he gave them his law. The mountain at Sinai where the
Israelites encountered Yahweh was actually a volcano.
On the cover of the Jewish Torah we often see pictured the benediction
symbol. This is the rabbinical benediction symbol that's the blessing symbol
with which the rabbis bless the congregation. The high priest of Israel
often raised his hands in the priestly blessing for Yahweh, the volcano god,
or Vulcan. So we see that this is a priestly blessing in the Hebrew. And
today the rabbi always gives the priestly blessing for Yahweh at the
synagogue. This also explains why Mr. Spock from "Star Trek" gives the exact
same "priestly blessing," and that's why Mr. Spock is called a Vulcan. That
was the whole idea of the Vulcan, coming from Vulcanus, or the old Cretan
deity which was later to be found in the Old Testament under the name of
So the point I'm making is that when we find the foundations for our
religious movements in America and in Europe, then we find that from those
religious foundations we have our political movements. And so therefore,
what we need to do is understand that our religion and our politics are both
one in the same. If we're under the law, and have to be a nation under the
law, then the law is, of course, the law from the Old Testament volcano god.
So, as I said, there are two kinds of facts in theology, the kind you look
up, and the kind you make up. All I'm saying is that there's been a lot of
theology that's been given to us, and we accept it blindly. But people still
need to do their homework, because so much of what we've been given which is
holy, turns out to be not so holy when you do your homework.
RD: Can I ask you one more thing? What about Noah and the Curse of Canaan?
JM: The Curse of Canaan (in Genesis 9:25) supposedly explains where the
black man comes from, because he was cursed by God. That is a horrible
misuse of scripture and I think it's too much of a subject to get into now.
Suffice it to say that it was purposely used by people who knew better when
they were using it, that it is not a curse on the black man. It has to do
with the Curse on Canaan and the Canaanites, who were not black people. We
can dispense with that, it was a misuse of scripture. When you get into
Canaan and Babylon, one finds how even today, the Babylonian empire still
affects our world. Many of our symbols and emblems come directly from Canaan
and Babylon, so if there's a "Curse on Canaan," we're enjoying it right now.
RD: So, you don't feel that this is going to take anything away from people?
JM: No, I think it is a privilege to educate and help people to understand
where things come from.
RD: To understand what's going on? Okay, I'm
absolutely enthralled and I feel that it's such a treat that you've come to
share this information with us.
Back to Contents
INTERVIEWS PART 3
ON RELIGION AND
The following interview with Jordan Maxwell was conducted by Ralph Walker.
RW: Let me introduce Jordan Maxwell.
JM: Secret societies are a very profound subject and it's one that most
people haven't looked at very closely. For something that is so powerful and
so important in our day, meaning the societies which control our country
from behind the scenes, it's really important to understand how they got
here and the symbols that are used. Occult symbols are like the letters of
the alphabet, put them together and they tell a story. But if you can't read
the symbols, you can't understand the story. A classic example I would like
to bring to your audience's attention is on the dollar bill.
Everyone has a one dollar bill in their pocket, but very few people have
looked at the symbolism on the back. There's much talk in Washington today
about a New World Order. If we look at the back of the dollar bill, on the
left-hand side, we see the magic circle. Within that magic circle is the
pyramid, with the all-seeing-eye separated above the top of the pyramid.
Above the eye you have Annuit Coeptis. which is Latin for our enterprise (or
project) is now a success.
RW: Now what was that enterprise?
JM: The enterprise itself is stated beneath the pyramid, Novus Ordo Seclorum,
which is in Latin, Novus is for new, Ordo is for order, and Seclorum is for
the secular, like your secular job, or your secular education, which means
worldly, or the secular world. So the term means New Order of the World, or
The New World Order.
RW: A term we hear quite frequently today.
JM: Exactly. Now the interesting
thing about this symbol of the New World Order is why it's pictured beneath
an Egyptian pyramid. Pyramids are in Egypt. So there's a reason why Egypt
has played such a very big part in America. To the secret societies of the
world, America is referred to as the "new Egypt," and therefore our symbols
are from Egypt. Like in Washington, DC, where we have the obelisk and the
White House. The obelisk is Cleopatra's Needle.
RW: Known as the Washington Monument.
JM: The Washington Monument is nothing more than the Egyptian Cleopatra's
Needle. As a matter of fact, if you fly over Washington, DC and look down,
or from pictures in a library of Washington, DC, from the air, you will see
that it's laid out in a tremendous pyramid, with the Capitol Building in the
triangle at the top.
The back of an American dollar bill showing the back and front (left and
right, respectively) sides of
the Great Seal of The United States.
There's the long waterway, that's the river Styx, which is out in front of
Cleopatra's Needle and of course, at the end, is the magic circle, the
Masonic circle. So it all has to do with ancient occult secret societies,
fraternal orders, and their symbolism.
RW: A question that some viewers may be wondering is why it's written in
Latin and not some African language?
JM: That a very good observation, because it is African symbolism, but Latin
language. The new order was to be made up of an elitist society, but it was
to be based on the old mysticism, religion, and philosophy of Africa, but it
would be a new Africa, or a "new Egypt."
RW: So you're saying that modern society goes all the way back to the Great
JM: Oh yes, goes all the way back. As a matter of fact, if you remember, the
pyramids are made out of bricks, and those who worked with bricks in the
ancient world were called stone-masons, and today that's where we get the
Masonic societies, or the Masons, who work with bricks. Almost all
Freemasons realize that their fraternity of freemasonry goes all the way
back into the ancient world, to the first dynasties of Egypt. Much of their
symbolism comes from Egypt. It's important to understand that today, when
the president talks about the New World Order, and you hear this term quite
often now, that you understand what he's really saying. America is referred
to as the New World, and of course, Christopher Columbus discovered the New
World. The Old World is Europe and for almost 2,000 years Europe has
controlled the world. Europe has dominated the world. And Rome has dominated
Europe. So for almost 2,000 years Rome, or the Roman Church, the Roman
authority of Europe, through their ancient and fraternal houses, have
controlled Europe and Europe has dominated the world.
RW: Did The Crusades have anything to do with this?
JM: Absolutely, that's
exactly right. That's why the Steven Spielberg and George Lucas movies, with
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, should be of great interest to
researchers. Of course, you can't understand the last crusade, if you don't
know anything about the first one. It has to do with the lost ark, and
that's why we have The Raiders of the Lost Ark, where they were searching
for the Ark of the Covenant. It was purely an African symbol, which was
later brought into modern use in the Bible, where it was referred to as the
Ark of the Covenant. It actually comes from Egypt, it's a much older symbol.
But that's a whole different story. If you think about the power base in
Europe being the old world, with those powers being behind the throne of
Europe dominating the world, that was an order, like a Masonic order, or an
order of priesthood
-you know, the fraternal orders.
RW: Does that reflect on history, if
several United States Presidents belong to the Masonic Order?
JM: Quite a
few presidents did. In fact, many of the founders of the United States, the
signers of the Constitution, were all Freemasons except for the few that
were Rosicrucians, and there were a few others that were of other fraternal
orders. In that respect, it's interesting to do a little research in your
history books on an order called
Prieure de Sion, the holy house of sion.
That's S-I-O-N, not Z-I-O-N. It's a very powerful secret society that's even
in existence in the south of France today. The south of France has always
been a very mystical place for occult societies; for example, the
the Albigensians, and The Crusaders. Let me get back to this point about
Rome dominating Europe, and Europe dominating the world. Rome, or the Roman
Church today, was the power of Europe and that was the Old World Order. The
order of the old world, But with the coming of America, we have a New World
Order, and therefore the elite power-base which is America is the "new"
RW: Are you saying that power was passed on to America?
JM: That's right,
the power was passed on to America.
RW: Or did they seize it and take it?
They actually seized it, and took it, and moved the power base from Europe
to America. And therefore, the order that is now directing affairs behind
the scenes in America is referred to those on the "inside" as the New Order,
the New World Order, because America is the New World. And when we
understand the symbolism on the dollar bill, we catch only a glimpse of the
whole picture. It's such an enormous subject, but many aspects can be seen
in motion pictures and in Hollywood.
RW: We use this terminology "secret societies," but are they really secret?
JM: You see, not all of them are secret, many of them are semi-secret
societies. In the 35 years that I've been interested in this subject, I've
found that there's always going to be people who will come out of these
societies, for whatever purpose, and for whatever reason, and begin to
divulge some of the things that are going on behind the scenes. We sometimes
hear about this from 50, to 60, to 100 years later when we find out that
someone wrote a book, and then we look back and can see why things happened
the way they did. And today, as a result of what's happened, our world is
totally in the grips of secret societies. The Middle East is dominated by
some very powerful secret societies and fraternal orders that are at work.
That is why George Bush had the troops in the Middle East it was to show
power to other secret societies as to who is really in control of the Middle
RW: I want to ask a question for someone who may be out there. What
about the Republican and Democratic Parties?
JM: I didn't write this, I'm
just relating it to you but George Washington mentioned in one of his
letters, actually in two of his letters, to a reverend in 1794, that there
was a secret society operating in Washington at the time. He referred to it
as the Democratic Society, which was later to become known as the Democratic
Party. He said that this society, the Democratic Society, or the Democratic
Party, was, in his own words, a subversive movement within the republic. It
had, and has, as its motive the dividing of the people from their
government. To this day, you send your democratically elected leaders to
Washington, not realizing that those elected leaders would be members of
secret societies and fraternal orders that would be working in concert with
the secret societies in Washington. You have to understand that Washington,
DC is a very powerful spot in the world for secret activities.
RW: I'll throw out a name like Ross Perot
JM: Well, Ross Perot is a newcomer; I go back into Woodrow Wilson's day-his
connections with occult orders. He once said something of profound
importance. He said, "Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's
views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United
States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something.
They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so
watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not
speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." That is a
word for word quote, from something called The New Freedom in 1913.
RW: What kind of symbolism can be found today from these occult orders?
JM: The first that comes to mind are the occult symbols on the dollar bill.
There's an interesting point on the back of the dollar bill, on the
right-hand side, with the eagle. Of course, the eagle is the old Phoenix
symbol, of rising from the ashes of destruction. It comes from the old Roman
symbols, which goes back even further than that. Above the eagle you'll see
thirteen stars, just above the eagle's head. There are thirteen cloud-bursts
around the thirteen stars, there are thirteen feathers along the wings,
there are thirteen stripes in the shield, on one side there are thirteen
arrows, on the other side there are thirteen leaves, and there are thirteen
berries on the olive branch. The pyramid on the left-hand side of the dollar
has thirteen layers.
RW: And what are the berries about?
JM: The most important thing is the
number thirteen. Why is the number thirteen dominating the dollar bill? It's
because thirteen is a very powerful mystical number to secret societies.
Incidentally, why did we have thirteen colonies? Why didn't we have
forty-two, or ten colonies, or one hundred and twenty-seven
colonies? Why did we have thirteen?
RW: Now, people out there may say that
thirteen is an unlucky number.
JM: That's right, thirteen's an unlucky
number, for you! That's the point.
Thirteen is unlucky for you to use because it's a holy number. The thirteen
is based on Jesus, and his twelve apostles, making thirteen. The twelve
followers of Jesus were called, in the Bible, the cornerstones of the New
World. Jesus was twice referred to in the New Testament as the "chief
cornerstone that the builder's rejected." The chief cornerstone! The word
chief cornerstone in the Bible is a Greek word meaning the peak of a
pyramid. That's what it means, so therefore the peak of a pyramid is a chief
cornerstone. And according to the old cabalistic understanding of the Bible,
the pyramid at the top (the capstone) is the eye of Jesus. The eye of
Let's look at that. The eye goes back to, of course. Horns, which was the
Sun in ancient Egypt. And today we have that eye on the back of the dollar
bill representing Jesus, or God's "son," There's a message there.
RW: Do you know the person who designed that symbol (on the back of the
JM: I'm not sure who designed it originally, but that symbol, on the left
hand side of the back of the dollar bill, was in existence, just as it is
today, in Bavaria, in the south of Germany, in 1774. There was an
organization, a secret society, a fraternal order called the Illuminati,
which used that exact symbol as their trademark. You can still see it in
European libraries and museums. The question is, how does it end up on an
American dollar bill? Especially since it was from an old German secret
society? That's the question. We then get into some of the fraternal orders
that are behind the throne in America. This is such a vast subject.
RW: Which leads me to the next question. What is the impact of secret
societies on American politics today.
JM: Secret societies are absolutely the heart, the blood, and the brains
behind America today. People just don't see it. The Republican Party is one
hand, the Democratic Party is another, and the brain is the secret societies
behind the scenes. Very powerful and intelligent people are at work behind
the scenes governing both the Democratic and Republican Parties. In point of
fact, it doesn't matter who is made president, the power is always going to
be in the hands of the people behind the scenes. That's why in America we
have a right to elect. We love to talk about our right to elect, but we
don't have the right to select that is decided upon by those who are in
power. Like today. Democrat Bill Clinton is a very well educated man, and he
is a Rhodes Scholar. And if you understand where the Rhodes scholarship
comes from, it's from Cecil Rhodes of South Africa. And Cecil Rhodes said,
before he died, that he was going to leave his millions and millions of
dollars to setup a secret society that would teach young white men to be
able to come into power and handle the reins of a vast world government. So
that was the dream of Cecil Rhodes, to be able to create a secret society
that could dominate the world from behind the scenes and do it with such
expertise that no one would ever have knowledge about it.
RW: Now, it seems this could be happening. Do secret societies have any
impact on the situation going on in Europe?
The White House, similar to England's White Hall, both being symbols of
JM: Absolutely. Secret societies have something to do with everything that's
going on in the entire world. You have to know that where there's politics,
there is money. And where there's money and politics, there is religion.
There are powerful forces at work right now in Yugoslavia. There were books
written twenty years ago talking about how the secret societies in the early
1990s were going to break up Yugoslavia (and the Balkans), and they had
already designed how they were going to do it, and who they were going to
start the war with. Twenty years ago these books were written about
Yugoslavia. That's just one example, and if you're into that type of
research, you can pretty much tell what's coming down the line. You can
already tell who's going to be doing what if you understand the story, as I
said, if you can read the symbols.
RW: I know you're not just predicting doom out there. What can the American
people do? Or people who want to change the situation, what can they do to
expose these societies?
JM: Let me say this. I am directing my work, what I do, only to a select few
to those who really care about their lives, those who really care about the
country they live in, those who really care about freedom and liberty. I
believe that the most important thing that one can do is educate your mind
first, because that's where real freedom is. It is in the intellect it is
spiritual and intellectual freedom. And without that kind of freedom, but
with the things you don't understand, the things you don't know, and not
being able to read symbols that's where they have you, because you don't
understand the game that's being played.
RW: We're in a world surrounded by fast moving symbols and images, and so no
one takes the time to explore the history of these and see what they mean.
RW: Now a question. You are very noted lecturer are you going
to be doing future events some time in the future?
JM: Yes, in fact I'm going to be doing some radio and TV programs. I did a
two-hour show on ABC-New York and it was very exciting. We just did a TV
program for CBS, I was on the CBS special "Ancient Mysteries of the Bible."
I maybe doing a program for NBC, that is hopefully in the works. And also,
I've just done a number of radio programs here in Los Angeles.
RW: You're also going to do a book and lecture tour throughout southern
JM: Yes. There's an enormous amount of material. A lot of people might think
that this is the kind of subject that, to know about, you'd have to be in
government or behind the scenes. But you'd be surprised how much material is
out there, if you just know where to look.
RW: Well, this is the information age and we're living in the information
capital of the world, Los Angeles. I'm sure that most of the information
that you've acquired you got right here in the United States.
JM: Oh sure, absolutely. You may be interested to know, however, who
controls the flow of our general information, for the masses, beyond what
people like you and I look for. Why is our country ruled from the District
of Columbia, and why do we have the Columbia Broadcasting System (CBS),
Columbia University, and of course the Space Shuttle Columbia? And of
course, the Columbia Broadcasting System on television has the symbol of the
all-seeing eye, the eye on the dollar bill. Let's notice the symbols, and
read them. I know I'm repeating myself, but the United States is ruled from
the White House, not the black house, or the brown house, but the White
House. And England is, of course, ruled from the White Hall — which is like
the Masonic hall, or the lodge hall. England's government comes from the
White Hall, and America's from the White House. So there's symbols and
emblems involved and they mean something. I want to point out something I
consider very important. When the new King of England is crowned, when he is
made King, listen to the words that the Arch Bishop of Canterbury will say
to the new King in the initiation ceremony. He says that the King of England
is taking this position as King for Jesus Christ, and ruling for Jehovah on
God's throne. And that is why God's kingdom is represented by the United
Kingdom. The United Kingdom is God's Kingdom. And of course Rome has a
terrible dispute with that. Rome had (and has) a dispute with England being
the center for God's kingdom, or the United Kingdom. The Pope always felt
that he was the Vicar of Christ and that was the basis for two world wars,
that we got involved in. It is being disputed as to who and what secret
society is going to be dominating the world, the Old World of Rome, or the
New World of Anglo-American. This is still being decided today, and upon
that note I will conclude.
RW: Thank you, Jordan, for sharing so much of your important and
JM: You're very welcome.
Tape Epilog: As you have seen, world politics is actually based on religion.
A good place to begin your research would be The History of the Christian
Religion to the Year Two Hundred by Charles Waite, and one of my favorite
books entitled Symbols, Sex, and the Stars by Ernest Busenbark. Both of
these books are available from The Book Tree, and I highly recommend them. I
also encourage interested people who want more information to contact me
directly, through the addresses, numbers, and/or web site provided in the
front of this book.
Back to Contents
The powers of financial capitalism had another far reaching aim, nothing
less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands
able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the
world as a whole.
This system was to be controlled in a feudalist
fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret
agreements, arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences.
The apex of the system was the
International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, a private bank owned and
controlled by the worlds' central banks which were themselves private
The growth of financial capitalism made
possible a centralization of world economic control and use of this
power for the direct benefit of financiers and the indirect injury of
all other economic groups.
—Professor Carroll Quigley of
Georgetown University, Tragedy and Hope: A History of The World in Our
Time (Macmillan Company,1966,)
The Council on Foreign Relations is "the establishment." Not only does
it have influence and power in key decision-making positions at the
highest levels of government to apply pressure from above, but it also
announces and uses individuals and groups to bring pressure from below,
to justify the high level decisions for converting the U.S. from a
sovereign Constitutional Republic into a servile member state of a
—Former Congressman John Rarick
We are at present working discreetly with all our might to wrest this
mysterious force called sovereignty out of the clutches of the focal
nation states of the world.
—Professor Arnold Toynbee, in a
June 1931 speech before the Institute for the Study of International
Affairs in Copenhagen.
If there are those who think we are to jump immediately into a new world
order, actuated by complete understanding and brotherly love, they are
doomed to disappointment. If we are ever to approach that time, it will
be after patient and persistent effort of long duration. The present
international situation of mistrust and fear can only be corrected by a
formula of equal status, continuously applied, to every phase of
international contacts, until the cobwebs of the old order are brushed
out of the minds of the people of all lands.
—Dr. Augustus O. Thomas, president
of the World Federation of Education Associations (August 1927), quoted
in the book International Understanding: Agencies Educating for a New
...when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world
social democracy, there may still be very great delays and
disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world
system. Countless people... will hate the new world order... and will
die protesting against it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we
have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents,
many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people.
—H. G. Wells, in his book entitled
The New World Order (1939)
The developing coherence of Asian regional thinking is reflected in a
disposition to consider problems and loyalties in regional terms, and to
evolve regional approaches to development needs and to the evolution of
a new world order.
—Richard Nixon, in Foreign Affairs
He [President Nixon] spoke of the talks as a beginning, saving nothing
more about the prospects for future contacts and merely reiterating the
belief he brought to China that both nations share an interest in peace
and building 'a new world order.
—Excerpt from an article in The
New York Times (February 1972)
Further global progress is now possible only through a quest for
universal consensus in the movement towards a new world order,
—Mikhail Gorbachev, in an address
at the United Nations (December 1988)
If we do not follow the dictates of our inner moral compass and stand up
for human life, then his lawlessness will threaten the peace and
democracy of the emerging new world order we now see, this long
dreamed-of vision we've all worked toward for so long.
—President George Bush (January 1991)
But it became clear as time went on that in Mr. Bush's mind the New
World Order was founded on a convergence of goals and interests between
the U.S. and the Soviet Union, so strong and permanent that they would
work as a team through the U.N. Security Council.
—Excerpt from A. M. Rosenthal, in
The New York Times (January 1991)
... it's Bush's baby, even if he shares its popularization with
Gorbachev. Forget the Hitler 'new order' root; F.D.R, used the phrase
—William Safire, in The New York
Times (February 1991)
The new world order that is in the making must focus on the creation of
a world of democracy, peace and prosperity for all.
—Nelson Mandela, in The Philadelphia Inquirer (October 1994)
The renewal of the nonproliferation treaty was described as important
"for the welfare of the whole world and the new world order,
—President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt,
in The New York Times (April 1995)
The New World Order will have to be built from the bottom up rather than
from the top down. It will look like a great "booming, buzzing
confusion, " to use William James' famous description of reality, but an
end run around national sovereignty', eroding it piece by piece, will
accomplish much more than the old-fashioned frontal assault.
—CFR member Richard N. Gardner,
writing in the April 1974 issue of the CFR's journal, Foreign Affairs.
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