Robert O. Dean
United States Army
Robert O. Dean
has been engaged in the field of UFO research for
the last 40 years. He began this research on active
duty in the US ARMY where he served for 27 years. He
retired as Command Sergeant Major from the Army in
1976 as a highly decorated combat veteran after
having served as an Infantry Unit Commander in
combat in Korea and Vietnam. He also served in
Intelligence Field Operations in Laos, Cambodia and
1963 to 1967 he served at Supreme Headquarters
Allied Powers Europe ( SHAPE ), NATO as an
intelligence analyst with a Cosmic Top Secret
clearance. While on this assignment, he helped move
the headquarters to the new site in Belgium. Dean
worked in the Operations Division and was a member
of the inner Command Staff thereby working with and
seeing the SACEUR (Supreme Allied Commander Europe)
almost every day.
It was while he was stationed at SHAPE that Robert's
interest in UFOs first started. One night, while on
duty, Robert removed a file from SHAPE's security
vault called "The Assessment" - An Evaluation
of Possible Military Threat to Allied Forces in
This file was given
the highest security classification, COSMIC TOP
SECRET. It retains that security classification to
this day. The contents of this file opened Robert's
eyes to the existence of UFOs and
extraterrestrial intelligence. He has, since
reading "The Assessment", dedicated his life to one
goal: Bringing to light the true facts surrounding
the UFO phenomenon and contact with extraterrestrial
To this end, Robert's
current projects are directed toward gaining
immunity for ex-military personnel (who may shed
some light on the UFO issue), enabling them to
testify before a Congressional Hearing without fear
of losing their pensions or of prosecution.
RD: I am consenting to this interview for two reasons. One is
that this is the last time that I'm going to be going through
this. I’ve gone through this so many times over the years, over
so many damn stupid accusations, and I'd like to clarify this
once and for all. Michael, I'm doing this primarily out of
respect for you because you put yourself in the middle here,
MS: Thank you. Well, you know, I do feel that what you
have to say is really important. I feel that the truth in what
you say. It means I don’t mind sticking my neck out and
supporting you since I feel that what you’re saying is the truth
and it’s important. There are people out there that don’t like
RD: I deeply appreciate that. I have a couple of misgivings.
First of all, I'm rather curious as to why Kevin (Randle) never
addressed this directly to me! I’ve known Kevin for years. I’ve
known him since back when he and Don Schmitt were putting their
first book together. And why he wouldn’t just come up to me and
say, “Look, I’ve got some misgivings about the story you’re
telling,” and I could have clarified a whole bunch of things for
him. But, you’re in the middle here, and I'm sorry for that. So
I would like to make a couple of things very clear. I'm glad
you’re recording this.
MS: I'll record it all, and transcribe it. That way it can go
out and clarify a lot of these misperceptions that are out
RD: Well, I went through the material that you sent to me that,
apparently, Kevin has published. And there’s a whole bunch of
mistakes in there, a whole bunch of misunderstandings which I
could have clarified very clearly for him, if he had even taken
the time to give me a call, or to even write me a letter. So, I
thought we’d go down the list here and I'd try to clarify a
number of things.
MS: That’s great. Let’s go through it, because that’s what I
really wanted to talk about -- clarifying the various points he
makes. So if you could respond to each of those that would be
RD: Yeah. I'm going to go down the list and try to clarify what
I can. Holy! I went through this years ago when I first came out
and began talking about the SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied
Powers Europe) Study. People said, “Oh, there’s no such thing as
Cosmic Top Secret Clearance.” For two damn years I put up with
that crap, where people who have no idea what they were talking
about said, “Oh, there’s no such thing as a Cosmic Top Secret
Clearance. He made it all up.”
But after about two years, a
retired wing commander in Great Britain notified the publisher
of UFO Magazine over there, that there was indeed a Cosmic Top
Secret level of clearance. And everybody who worked at
classified level at SHAPE had to have a Cosmic Top Secret
clearance. So, Graham …. I don’t know whether you ever met
MS: Graham Birdsall. No, I never did.
RD: Graham Birdsall published it clearly in his magazine, that
this retired wing commander had stated that, yes, there was
indeed a Cosmic level of clearance. “I had it myself,” he said.
So it does exist. And it still exists. But I had to put up with
MS: OK. So, 1993 was the first time the general public was able
to confirm that the Cosmic Top Secret clearance existed?
RD: Well, apparently. A lot of people didn’t even know about it.
Anybody who had been assigned at, at a classified level with
SHAPE knew about it. But the people who were being critical of
me apparently didn’t have the insight or the access, so they
just say that I made it all up. Well, finally the wing commander
came out and said that, “The damn thing does exist. I had it.”
Everybody at SHAPE who works with classified material has a
Cosmic Top Secret Clearance. So, we finally put that to rest.
Then I went through a whole period of time where I was accused
that I had made up being at SHAPE, that I hadn’t been there,
that I was not this and I was not that, and so on, and so on.
And finally Michael Hesseman, I think you know who Michael is?
MS: I do, yes.
RD: Michael did some research there in Germany and said,
some German investigators check into this thing, from the German
office over at SHAPE, and they say, yes, the record is pretty
clear that Dean was there, and that he had this assignment, he
had that assignment, and that those claims very accurately
One of things that Kevin has gotten mistaken
about here is that I had two assignments when I was at SHAPE.
When I first arrived in the summer of 1963 I was assigned to the
Operations Division. That was the assignment that I held,
and Operations Division. I held that assignment for two years
and then I got promoted. I was a Master Sergeant E7, at the time
I arrived at SHAPE, then I got promoted to Master Sergeant E8.
Now that was about, back at the time, when the United States
Army created what they called “Super Grades”.
They created the
‘Grade E8 and E9’. Prior to that time the senior enlisted level
was E7. When I got there I was an E7. While I was there in the
Operations Division I got promoted to E8, one of the Super
Grades, and I moved from the Operations Division over to the
Language Services Branch. Now, apparently people who’ve done
their investigating came up with Language Services Branch, and
didn’t have any record whatsoever of my two years assigned to
the Plans and Operations Division. That’s when I worked in the
SHOC (Supreme Headquarters Operations Center), in the War Room.
MS: OK. So that’s really the Intelligence section – the Plans and
RD: Plans and Operations. That’s when I ran the Duty
Roster for the Controllers who (were) the O6’s. O6 is a grade level. I
don’t know whether you’re familiar with it. It’s a full colonel
in the Air Force, it’s a captain in the Navy. But O6’s were the
Controllers in SHOC. I ran the Duty Roster for these people.
while I was working in Operations Division, for two years, I
worked in SHOC. I was in and out of SHOC all the time. I even
ran the Duty Roster for the 06’s. But then when I got promoted
to Master Sergeant E8, I was transferred over as the Chief
Security NCO for the Languages Services Branch. I controlled and
inventoried and had access, and I looked after all of the
classified material in Languages Services Branch. Now these were
the documents that were being translated - from English to
French, from English to Italian, to German, to whatever.
a complete staff of translators and interpreters that worked in
the Language Services Branch. During those years, of the
last 3 years of my assignment over there, I was the Sergeant
Security for the Languages Services Branch. So the people who
came up with information saying, “Oh, he was merely a clerk in a
Language Branch,” are missing the point entirely that I had
worked in OPs for two years. Then when I got promoted and went
over to Languages Services I was in charge of all of the
documents, all of the classified material that had to be
translated in the entire SHAPE headquarters.
MS: In the time that you spent in Languages Services, did you
have access to The Assessment there?
RD: No. No, I lost my access to the thing because when I moved
out of SHOC, I had no access to get in and out of the SHOC vault
any more after that. But I was still responsible for
controlling, or inventorying and classifying and keeping control
of all of the documents and classified material that had been
submitted to Language Services Branch to be translated from one
language to another.
Matter of fact, I helped put together the
shipment of all our classified material out of SHAPE
headquarters in 1967, before I came home, when we transferred
all of the headquarters from Roquencourt to Casteau. We were in
Roquencourt, outside of Paris. I helped together, put together
the entire shipment of all the classified materials from
Roquencourt up to Casteau, outside of Brussels. So, I had two
assignments over there – two years at the Operations Division
where I worked in SHOC, in the War Room, and that’s when I had
access to the document The Assessment.
MS: I see. When you made the move from Operations Division into
the language section, was your clearance in any way affected?
RD: No! I still held onto classified Cosmic Top Secret level! To
deal with that kind of material, Michael, you had to have a CTS.
All of us in that level had CTS. Anybody who worked in SHOC had
to have a CTS. I had to have a Cosmic level clearance when I
worked at Language Services because I inventoried and was
responsible for – we had about 8 large safes. In SHOC we had one
enormous vault. You could walk into the room at SHOC.
left Language Services, we had 8 large safes absolutely stuffed
material. So, I had to inventory and be responsible for that –
giving it out to the various translators and interpreters who
had to translate it into other languages. But I didn’t deal with
The Assessment after I left SHOC.
Now Kevin says that, “Dean later amended the story.” Well, I
never amended the story at all! It’s all the same damn story! My
first exposure to The Assessment was when an Air Force, full
Colonel, who was on duty that night, as the SHOC controller,
pulled it out of the vault and threw it on my desk and said,
“Read this. This’ll wake you up!” Now according to Kevin I had
another version – that I learned the study was under way and
that, having the required clearance, I often studied the pages.
Well, there was nothing to study until the document was
published in the summer of 1964. When I arrived in ’63, there
was a lot of gossip, there was a lot of conversation and gossip
among the guys in the headquarters about the UFO study. But
there was nothing to look at. There was nothing that had been
published. They didn’t publish the document until the summer of
1964. I'd been there in Operations Division for a full year at
When it was published in the summer of ’64, it caused quite a
shock to a lot of people. Many of the senior officers were quite
stunned by it. I'll say that one night on duty, in SHOC, during
late summer or early fall of 1964, is when the Air Force colonel
pulled it out of the vault and threw it on my desk said, “Read
it!” I never had a chance to read anything until the late summer
of 1964 because the document was not published until the summer
So Kevin coming out saying that I amended the story and
he had another version, well there is no damned amendment! I’ve
told the same story, from the very beginning. And I’ve told it
repeatedly. There’s nothing about amending it or another
version. When I first arrived, there was a lot of conversation
about it. But that was just gossip. Nobody had anything to
really look at until the summer of 1964, and only then did I
ever have a chance to look at the damn thing. I’ve made that
If Kevin had even bothered to give me a call,
I could have clarified it for him.
MS: When you were in the Language Division, were there any
documents there that were classified “Ultra”, or was it only in
the Operations Center that there were “Ultra” classified
RD: The only time I had seen “Ultra” on any document was on a
United States document. Ultra was not necessarily a level of
classification that was commonly used at SHAPE. It was only used
on United States documents. Now, I logged in all of the
Kevin says that I didn’t have the level of access of the Need To
Know. I have no idea what Kevin’s even talking about here
because if he’s ever been assigned to a major international
headquarters, people who had the level of access deal with the
documents that they are confronted with, and “Need To Know”
doesn’t necessarily apply when you’ve got about 500 to a 1000
different documents going over your desk in any number of days.
In SHAPE Headquarters, back in 1964, ’65, until I left in ’67,
we had literally hundreds of thousands of documents that were
classified “Cosmic Top Secret”. The idea of a “Need To Know” to
deal with classified material is kind of silly. I was a senior
NCO and I logged these documents in and I logged them out
regularly. I conducted inventories of Cosmic Top Secret
documents every month! Need To Know didn’t even apply back in
So documents, when they published them, they would put out “Eyes
Only”, “Need To Know”. But the number and the volume that we
dealt with, there was no crap about a Need To Know with 500
documents crossing your desk! You’ve logged them, you’ve looked
at them, you’ve tried to figure out what they were all about as
to whom they were supposed to go to. But like I said, the only
time I had seen Ultra while I was in SHAPE Headquarters was on
Back in those days, from ’63 when I arrived, until
’67 when I left, the administrative problems at SHAPE
Headquarters were quite serious. For example, every nation that
was militarily assigned or represented there, came to that
headquarters with their own administrative procedures. For a
long, long time, every nation that worked there, at the
headquarters, frankly functioned with their own administrative
Before I left in ’67, the Admin (short for
“Administration”) Division at SHAPE had to publish a Special
Order trying to make all of the Administrative procedures in the
headquarters under one kind of central system of procedure. But
it was a damn nightmare for a long time. The Greeks, the Turks,
the Americans, the British, the Italians, the Germans, everybody
had their own Admin processes. Generally, that’s what they
followed for a long time.
It was not really until we moved the
headquarters up to Casteau, outside of Brussels, that the SHAPE
published an ‘Insist’ that people follow one single procedure
for administrative operations at SHAPE Headquarters. But it was
a real hodge-podge for a long time.
MS: So, generally speaking then, the kind of security procedures
that would be expected in the US military just didn’t operate in
SHAPE because of these administrative problems that they had
RD: Michael, it didn’t even exist! We had to sock these people
over the head, literally, to try to get some kind of a system, a
procedure, where everybody followed the same formats. Not only
did we have all those different languages involved, every damn
piece of a document that went around was either German or
Italian or French or English, and sometimes it was Turkish,
sometimes it was Greek. The Norwegians even had their own
The Danes had their procedures. They practically had
to sock them over the head with a mallet. It was not really
beginning to work until about the time I left in ’67, that the
SHAPE Admin Headquarters published the procedure insisting that
everybody follow the same damn administrative process.
My immediate boss was a German colonel, by the name of Burger,
and his boss was an Italian brigadier general by the name of
Julio Cesare Graziani. Now Graziani was the son of an Italian
field marshal. If you know your history, Graziani was the
Italian field marshal that conquered Ethiopia. Well, his son was
a brigadier general at SHAPE Headquarters, and he was a
bullheaded … I guess it because he was raised the son of a field
marshal, but he was an ornery cuss, and we had to fight like
hell to get him to prepare documents that would meet the SHAPE
administrative procedures. He wrote all of his memos in Italian.
They had to be translated into English and French, or German.
For a long time it was a goddamn nightmare, I’ll be honest with
you. But about the time I left the Admin headquarters had gotten
the Personnel Administration to put together a procedure. I used
to have a copy of it, but I’ve misplaced it somewhere along the
line, where everybody had to follow the same administrative
procedure, and violations were considered serious. But it was a
nightmare for years. Everybody was publishing in their own
process. And the Americans were just as bad as everybody else.
So, to answer your question about Ultra, I never saw Ultra on
anything but US documents.
MS: OK. Now, was Ultra on The Assessment itself?
RD: Ultra, yes. It was on The Assessment. I remember that I’d
seen it repeatedly.
RD: Now, there is another thing here I need to clarify. It is
that Kevin says that I provided a document to somebody, and that
they determined it was false. Well, let me clarify a little bit
here. I never provided a document to anybody! I was attending an
international lecture in Dusseldorf, in 1993. It was a big
conference sponsored by Michael Hesseman, and I was a speaker
over there. I was in Dusseldorf in ’93. During the weekend
between, it was a 2 week conference I rented a car and I drove
over to Casteau, just south of Brussels, to go to SHAPE
I had been so concerned and so distraught over the
criticism that I had been receiving from so many people, that I
went down to SHAPE Headquarters, in Casteau, and I visited
SHAPE. I went into the US headquarters there, and I laid out my
ID and proved who I was, and I got myself a pass. That pass
authorized me access to go into SHAPE Headquarters. I spent the
better part of 2 days visiting different offices in the SHAPE
Headquarters there in Casteau. I asked questions, and it was
very clear who I was. I identified myself. I visited the United
States section. I went up to the old Operations Division.
never got back into SHOC because I didn’t have the clearance or
access at the time. I met a lot of people. I talked to the
command sergeant major at SHAPE Headquarters there. I talked to
the administrative office. I went and visited the old Language
Services Branch to see if any of the translators or interpreters
that I used to know were still around. I found that 2 of them
were still there. I began to ask a lot of questions during that
summer of 1993 about the document, about The Assessment. I found
that people were very hesitant to even talk about anything that
was classified, which only made sense. I understood that. So I
spent a better part of 2 days there visiting, and enjoyed it
I took a whole lot of photographs, of me and SHAPE
and so on. I visited a couple of old friends in Language
Services Branch. Then I went back to Germany, and at the end of
the conference I went back to the States. About 3 weeks after I
got home, in the summer of ’93, I got a little note in the mail.
It was an envelope with about half a
dozen 35 MM colored negatives in it. No letter, no comment, no
explanation, no nothing, (only) about half a dozen loose 35 MM
colored negatives. I put them up to the light, got a magnifying
glass and looked at them, and they appeared to be photographs of
the material from The Assessment.
Apparently my enquiries, when I had been over in Germany and
drove over to Casteau and all, had triggered something on behalf
of somebody. So I’m back in the States and I get this envelope
in the mail and these negatives were in there. I could determine
that apparently they were negatives of classified documents, and
appeared to be material from The Assessment.
Now, step two. I had an opportunity to visit my son, who at that
time was assigned to the Pentagon. My boy is a carrier Naval
officer. He a full captain in the Navy. He’s an O6. I visited
him there that fall because I remember that the leaves were
falling. While I was visiting my son in Arlington, and he was
working at the Pentagon, I took these negatives over to a man by
the name of C. Richard D’Amato.
Now, have you ever heard of Dick
MS: Yes. I have.
RD: Well, I don’t know whether Dick is still working there. At
the time he was Council for International and National Security
Policies. He worked for a United States senator on the
Appropriations Committee (Senator Robert Byrd). Dick had a Top
Secret clearance, and he was interested in the UFO subject. And
I crossed paths with him a couple of times and I had gotten to
know him. So, while I was in Washington, in the fall of ’93, I
took these negatives with me.
I went to Dick D’Amato’s office,
and I said,
“Look. Do me a favor. You’ve got access. You have
access to a whole lot of things. You have a Top Secret level
(clearance). You work for Senator Byrd. You’re on the Committee
on Appropriations for the United States Senate.”
Dick was at
that time Council for International and National Security
Policies. So I gave him the negatives and I said,
“Dick, do me a
favor. Find out, if you can, for me, if these are legitimate.”
turned them over to him.
a pleasant afternoon, and I think we had dinner together then I
left. I never heard from him after that because I went back to
Arizona. The next thing I hear is that somebody in Britain is
saying I submitted a document to verify my story that had been
considered to be fraudulent. Well I have not submitted a
document to anybody.
I had submitted negatives to Dick D’Amato,
asking him, in his good graces, to see if he could find out if
these were legitimate, or whether they were phony. The next
thing I know they (were) published in the British magazine
(Unopened Files), that I had provided a photograph of the
colored cover document. According to Kevin, that proved to be
the downfall of my tale. Well, that’s a total erroneous thing. I
never submitted a document to anybody.
I gave the negatives to Dick D’Amato and said, “Please try to
find out for me, if you can, whether these damn things are
MS: Right. So, that document was in the British journal
(Unopened Files), and was probably by Mark Birdsall?
RD: Yeah, I remember. Mark published it in his little magazine.
So I never gave Mark anything. The last thing I did is I gave
Dick D’Amato some negatives. The next thing I know, apparently
they’d made a print, and they published it in the magazine, and
it had “Ultra” on it. That supposedly proved that Dean was a big
liar. Well, let me tell you something about Ultra.
A lot of
people have said that,
“No, it doesn’t exist.”
is, and has been, a US level of access. It’s been a US level
code since the early 1950s. Now, are you familiar with Richard
Dolan’s UFO book?
MS: Yes, I am.
RD: Well, Dick has done some incredible research. He is one of
the finest research investigators that I’ve ever encountered.
And his book is what I consider to be a masterpiece. On, on page
85 (p. 47 2002, edition) of Dick’s book, ”UFOs And The National
Security State”, Dick talks about Donald Menzel (who) had a Top
Secret Ultra clearance. You’re familiar with who Menzel had
MS: Yes, I am.
RD: OK. Well, Dick had done some research and found out that
Menzel had an Ultra Top Secret Ultra, clearance back in the 50s.
And apparently, from what I’ve been able to piece together,
Ultra is a level of access that the United States government
uses primarily to deal with UFO objects, or UFO subjects. They
apparently put the Ultra level on any document that has to do
with alien activities or UFO sightings. And Menzel had a Top
Secret Ultra clearance, according to Richard Dolan’s research,
back in the 50s.
RD: That’s right. If you have a copy of, of Dolan’s book, you
can find it on page 85 (p. 47, 2002, edition).
MS: Thank you for that. That is very helpful. I do have a copy
and I’ll look that up.
RD: Well, Dick is a researcher that I respect. He, he does his
homework. He really looks into it. He came up with the fact that
Menzel had an Ultra Top Secret back in the 50s. So, from my own
experience, Ultra, while I was at SHAPE, appeared only on US
documents. Apparently when D’Amato got the negatives printed, I
found out that he, apparently, had sent them to Timothy Good!
And Good is the one who provided them to
Mark Birdsall. So, I’ve
been trying to piece this together, of how the hell the
negatives ended up in (chuckles), in Mark Bridsall’s magazine.
So, from what I can piece together, D’Amato had given them to
Good because they knew each other. I still to this day, Michael,
will not swear that that cover-sheet is legitimate. I have no
knowledge that it is. All I know is that I had been given these
negatives. I gave them to D’Amato. Apparently D’Amato gave them
And the next thing I know they’re in Mark Birdsall’s
MS: Mm-hmm. Now with the negatives themselves, were they
basically still on that film that you received? In other words,
they hadn’t been developed yet, and you were wanting to know ….
RD: I have never developed any of those negatives because I had
seen “Top Secret” on the damn thing. Well, I looked at them
through a magnifying glass, and I was not about to have them
(developed), you know. I wanted to get them out of my hands as
quickly as I could.
MS: OK. So you were concerned that these were still highly
classified documents and that this may be in violation of the
law if you ….
RD: Michael, I was thinking at the time, “Somebody’s trying to
set me up!”
MS: I see. OK. Well, that makes sense.
RD: That’s why I got rid of them and gave them to D’Amato, just
to get rid of them. Never did print them. The next thing I know
is, I understand that D’Amato never leveled with me, or we never
talked after that. But, apparently, he sent them to Good, and
Good sent them to Birdsall. And apparently Good and the Admiral
(Lord Hill-Norton) tried to figure out whether they were
According to the Admiral’s research they could never
find anything to verify them. One of the things they did bring
out is that “Ultra” was not a level of classification. Well,
Ultra is, and has been, for years! Because, Michael, you know
this, because I know that you’ve done your homework. A lot of
levels of classification are in themselves classified.
RD: Oh, I’m not surprised, and wouldn’t be surprised to find out
that the Ultra as a level of classification is in itself
classified. So, it’s probably not found everywhere. But Dick
Dolan dug it out and it’s in his book on page 85 (p. 47, 2002
MS: So basically when Demotto passed on those documents to Good
and Birdsall, somewhere along the line they misconstrued that
you had actually seen these and believed that they were
legitimate, that this was not ….
RD: Yeah. The last document I saw was when I left SHOC. Let’s
see, I went there in ’63, I worked there for about two years. It
was probably late ’65 when I was promoted to Master Sergeant E8,
and went over to Language Services Branch. And I hadn’t seen any
material that had “Ultra” on it after I left SHOC.
Ultra I had seen was on US documents in the vault. But Ultra was
not a common term used by SHAPE Headquarters. It was only used
by the United States. And the United States had its own
administrative procedures and techniques. For example, we had
Air Force and Army and Navy all working together -- all the
United States branches, Air Force, Army and Navy. Our Air Force,
and our Army, and our Navy, all had individual administrative
So when you were dealing with documents, for
example, you were dealing with a document that had been prepared
by the Air Force, you had to make it very clear, when you
provided that document to the United States Navy, or to the
United States Army, that this was strictly an Air Force
document, because the formats were different. You talk about the
nightmare of having all those different foreign countries
involved, good God! Even our 3 services had their own
And I’ll be honest with you, in almost the four years, close to
5 years, that I worked at SHAPE Headquarters, the administration
was a nightmare. Not only to get the 3 services of the United
States to come to some kind of a process or procedure that made
sense, but to get the other nations to do the damn same thing.
It was literally a damn nightmare. I’ll tell you honestly, I
don’t know whether Dick D’Amato is still working back in
Washington. I’ve got a phone number on him and I thought I’d
give him a call. He used to live in Annapolis (Maryland). I was
thinking of trying to track him down to see if he’s still
working out there.
As much as he had a Top Secret level, I’m
sure he’s probably working in government somewhere.
MS: Right. There are 2 documents that came up in Graham Birdsall’s article. One was the cover-sheet of The Assessment.
The one was basically a letter saying that you had an Ultra Top
Secret clearance. So that was not something you had ever seen
before? That was basically part of that package of half a dozen
negatives that you received?
RD: No. I still don’t know what the hell Mark Birdsall
published. Nobody ever sent me a copy of the magazine!
MS: Oh, OK. Well, I have a copy so I can send that to you.
RD: Well, thank you. I understand that you guys are putting
together something which she received something yesterday in the
mail, about a new format or procedure that your organization’s
putting together. But she somehow misplaced it or whatever. I
can’t find it. I would appreciate it if you can send it again.
MS: OK. Is this the conference that we’re putting together?
RD: Well, it’s something about the organization that’s come up
with a procedure where you’re going to try to determine whose
telling the truth and who isn’t.
MS: Oh, well, that’s something that we’re discussing. It’s not
something that we’ve decided upon yet, but it’s something that
we’re trying to play with. But that’s a hard one, just because
there’s so much debate and contention out there.
RD: Yeah, well there is. I wish you luck, my friend. You know, I
was concerned recently. You’re familiar with the statement made
by the ex-Canadian Defense Minister?
MS: I certainly am. Yes.
RD: Yeah, he came out. I believe he said that
Colonel Corso had
been telling the truth, according to Corso’s book, “The Day
After Roswell”. Well, Phil and I were friends. I knew Phil Corso.
I’d been to conferences with him. I got to know him over the
years. I respected the man, and I have always believed in my
heart that Phil Corso was telling the truth from the very
beginning. Now that the retired or the ex-Minister of Defense of
Canada has come out, and apparently confirmed Phil Corso’s story
was legitimate, I wish Phil were still around to hear that!
MS: Yes. He confirmed that Corso was legitimate by a retired US
Air Force general who confided in him that Corso was telling the
truth. Paul Hellyer hasn’t revealed who that general was. People
would like to know. But he is also being criticized, because
just as Philip Corso was criticized, now Paul Hellyer is being
criticized by many ufologists because he’s taking Philip Corso
at his word, or based on what he was told by the general.
RD: You know, this is heartbreaking, Michael, that we people in
the UFO field can’t get along. We are our own worst enemies,
with this knock-down-drag-out brawl that’s going on, where
everybody’s throwing bricks, bats, rocks and mud at each other.
We don’t need critics in the Department of Defense! We’re doing
enough damage to ourselves, for Christ sake!
MS: Yes. In my own experience, in looking at the criticisms,
what I find is that people will try to twist what others say,
and try to discredit them that way. Like in (the case) of Kevin
Randall with your testimony, he said that you changed your story
a number of times. But that is an outright distortion of what
had occurred. You’ve actually said that you’ve maintained the
same story. So, some researchers try to misconstrue how people
present facts and in a negative light. I’ve noticed that this
has happened not only with you, but with Philip Corso,
Stone, and other whistleblowers.
RD: Yes, I’ve noticed that too and it breaks my heart because,
as I told you before, I told one story, and I told it simply and
I told it in one version, and I haven’t changed my tale. I
haven’t changed anything. I tell the same damn story because
what I’m telling is what I’ve seen, what I was involved with,
what I’ve learned. I can’t change that. I was there. I saw this.
I was affected by it. I kept my mouth shut for so many years. I
never said a word until finally I got to a point where, frankly,
I was getting to think I’m going to die here before I ever share
it with anybody.
And I came out and told the story. Well, I have
been attacked mercilessly from all directions. But the attacks
from the guys within the UFO field of research have really hurt
me more than anything else. And that troubles me. I respect your
position, Michael, and I respect your hunger to find the truth,
and I support you completely. And I want to thank you for
standing up for me.
MS: Oh, it’s my pleasure. Every time I hear you I feel the truth
of your words. Your story is consistent. Your story fits with
the facts. To me your story is critical to this whole field. And
I’m frankly amazed that so many UFO researchers go to such great
lengths to find any way to cast doubt or to criticize you when
in fact it’s been clearly proven that you served in the
Operations Center of NATO, having a very senior position, and
had access to some very sensitive documents. Yet people choose
not to acknowledge that and go for these very abstract
criticisms or minor details that might not fit their conceptions
and criticisms of you. To me it’s like people are out to debunk
your story, regardless of the truth of it.
RD: Well, I agree with you, Michael. And as I said, I support
you. And I’m sorry that you found yourself in the middle here,
between Kevin and I. As I said, it could have all been resolved
if Kevin had ever had the courtesy to give me a phone call or
write me a letter. We could have clarified some of these things,
a long time ago, without having put you in the middle here. I
respect you, and I encourage you to continue to do what you’re
doing. Michael, you’ve got my support all the way through this
MS: Well, thank you.
RD: I admire what you’re doing. I know how difficult it is for
you. I know what you went through back there at the university,
and I take my hat off to you, my friend.
MS: Thank you, Bob. I’m certainly encouraged by the things
you’ve told me. I know that this field is real. I know I know
the things you’ve experienced make it worthwhile, for any
sacrifice that I’ve gone through is little in comparison to what
the benefit is of pursuing the truth and getting this
RD: I ran into
Steven Greer a couple of years back and it was at
a conference. I think it was up at Laughlin, at Bob Brown’s
conference a couple years back. He grabbed hold and pulled me
aside and he said,
“Oh, by the way,” he said, “one of my
whistleblowers that I had at my big conference at Washington DC
has told me that he read The Assessment and that everything
you’ve said is true.”
Then he ran off and I never got a chance
to get Steven Greer pinned in a corner to find out
who the hell he was talking about. So, apparently one of his
retired military whistleblowers had verified The Assessment. So
if you ever get a chance to run into Greer, ask him who the hell
he was talking about.
MS: Thank you. Yes, that’s an important lead. I’ll definitely
keep that in mind next time I talk to him.
RD: Good! And listen, I know the one who verified the story was
Michael Wolf. You know what a job they did on Michael Wolf.
MS: Yes, I know. They debunked him mercilessly as well.
RD: Well, I knew
Michael Wolf. I never met him, but I had talked
to him repeatedly. When he was dying, he was on the phone with
me many, many hours, and Michael (Wolf) told me and he told the
Italian lady …
MS: Paola Harris …
RD: Yeah, he told Paola Harris that he had read The Assessment
in a US file, when he was involved back there. But then they
attacked Michael. They pulled him apart and tried to discredit
him. But it goes on and on, Michael. It happens again and again.
And Clifford Stone is another friend of mine. Are you familiar
with who Clifford is?
MS: Yes. I’ve done some interviews with Clifford. I certainly
know about him.
RD: Clifford Stone is a retired Army sergeant who lives in, of
all places, Roswell!
Clifford had said one time,
“I’ve read the
damned Assessment.” He said, “I saw the US copy.”
supported me and said that Dean was telling the truth. But, I
reached a point, Michael, as I said. I’m going to be 77 here in
a couple of weeks and I’m too damn tired to go through this crap
again. I’ve spoke with you, and I’ve shared a few things with
you only because, as I said, I respect you and I respect the
position that you’re in. So this will be my last, so called,
public statement on the thing. And I wish you well, my friend.
MS: OK. Thank you.
RD: I hope your conference is hell of a wonderful success.
MS: Thank you, Bob. I’ll keep you posted. I’ll have all this
transcribed and send you a copy. This will hopefully deal with
those kinds of criticisms, and at least get the record straight.
RD: Listen, my friend, if you run into Kevin, if he comes to the
conference, and you get in touch with him, tell him that all
this could have been resolved if he had ever communicated with
MS: I’ll pass that on.
RD: OK, guy.
MS: Thank you very much, Bob. All the best.
RD: Michael, you take care of yourself. I’ll have to tell you
very honestly, I’m a little envious of you being in Hawaii. I
wish I were there, but I don’t travel any more.
MS: Well, thank you for your help, and for telling me what
exactly happened, and clarifying the situation. That does help
me a lot, and I can now respond to the each of the criticisms.
RD: If you are ever able to track down Dick D’Amato, I’m sure
he’ll verify everything I’ve told you.
MS: OK. I’ll do that.
RD: Read page 85 (p. 47, 2002 edition) of Dolan’s book, and
you’ll see he refers to Ultra, as being active back in the ‘50s.
I only saw Ultra on US documents at SHAPE. Never on French,
German, British, or any of that.
RD: OK, my friend.
MS: Thank you. Aloha!
[End of interview.]