AAG: I’d like to start out
with a bit of background information. Can you tell me about
yourself, some of the books that you’ve written in the past? I’d
like to learn about what drives you as an author, and what first
inspired you to take on the challenging subject of the
Farrell: Well, by academic training and background I’ve always
dealt with ancient texts, and been trained to notice things. But
when I was younger I quickly developed an interest in physics.
read Einstein’s and Infeld’s
Evolution of Physics when I was in
the 7th grade, and that started a lifelong interest in the
subject, which I try to stay abreast of, reading papers and
books in both the mainstream and “alternative” areas of physics
as much as I can.
Most of my books deal with physics in some way
shape or form, and with the peculiar interface between history
and physics, seeking to answer mysteries of history with physics
I’ve written five books in this alternative
physics-and-history area thus far, plus have a new one coming
out sometime in the next two or three months I’d imagine.
AAG: Now culturally speaking, books on Nazi secret-weapons may
seem a little dated, and yet some of the biggest Hollywood
blockbusters in the last few years have been WW-II movies, such
as “Flags of our Fathers” and “Saving Private Ryan”.
What is it
about the Second World War that continues to captivate us, and
why doesn’t Vietnam, the Gulf War, or even World War I provoke
the same reaction?
Dr. Joseph Farrell:
Author of “ SS Brotherhood of the Bell ”, a
history of Nazi secret weapons research.
Farrell: That’s a great question,
and one, I think, that a lot of people ask, and my own intuition
is that it has something to do with the clear-cut moral and
spiritual aspect of that war; it was a war between real good and
real evil; the Kaiser’s Germany was not, after all, ultimately
out to “conquer the world” and exterminate whole peoples or to
turn them into slaves; Nazi Germany was.
And I think, too, that
World War Two fascinates us because it was the first truly
modern war. From the technological standpoint, most of our
modern weapons - smart bombs, missiles, radar stealth
technology, television guided bombs, even computers and directed
energy weapons - have some prototypical antecedent that dates
from that war, and much of it traceable to Nazi and Allied
secret weapons projects.
Even from the standpoint of military
doctrine I think there is a fascination, because the Germans
really invented modern mobile combined arms maneuver warfare and
the basic concept of firepower attrition. So I think there’s any
number of ways or reasons that we find the war so fascinating.
AAG: In terms of research for the book, I understand that you
consulted extensively with defense journalist Igor Witkowski,
who is also a primary source for Nick Cook’s coverage of this
topic in “The Hunt for Zero Point”. Can you tell us about
working with Witkowski, and what came out of that collaboration?
Farrell: Yes I did. Igor and I exchanged some letters and emails
as I was writing the book, and swapping information and
brainstorming ideas, many of which did not actually make it into
the book at all. Like you, I have a tremendous respect for
Witkowski’s work in his book The Truth About the Wunderwaffe.
And we both share the opinion that it was certainly worth the
$80 we paid to get it. Igor is very easy to work with, and
considers his sources and evidences very rationally and
carefully. One thing I think that he and I would both be agreed
upon, and that is that there is certainly more work that can and
should be done on the Nazi Bell story, as your own articles on
that subject also indicate.
I think he and I now are both sort
of re-grouping and considering where to go from here: Do we
pursue the historical line and aspect of the story, or the
technological and physics one?
I think in a story like this it’s
difficult to disentangle the two and that any further work on
the subject will be along the lines that Igor and I pursued in
Defense-journalist who broke the Bell story in “Truth about the Wunderwaffe”
AAG: Now “SS Brotherhood of the
Bell” covers more than just the Bell - what are some of the
other secret weapons that you describe in the book, and are
there any revelations about new devices that might surprise us?
Farrell: Well, actually I don’t speak a great deal about other
German secret weapons in The SS Brotherhood of the Bell other
than to reference some of the inter-continental rockets that
they were developing, plus some discussion on their
over-the-horizon phased array radars that they also developed as
guidance systems for them.
That in itself is a revelation,
because the standard Allied Legend about German radars was that
it wasn’t as sophisticated as Allied radar and so on. In some
respects that is true but in others - such as these
over-the-horizon radars - it is not. I also mention these radars
because it’s my belief that they played a role in their late-war
RAM experiments, where I believe they discovered aspects of
wave-mixing and phase conjugation by multi-beam interferometry
on some of their RAM material.
Of course, your readers will
recognize those same elements in the presentations of
physics that Lt. Col.
Tom Bearden has been making over the
This fact, plus certain things about the Bell itself,
indicate to me that the Nazis may have been deliberately seeking
or doing research into various aspects of scalar physics and the
related ideas of vortex mechanics and torsion fields and so on.
AAG: Now in terms of breakthrough propulsion, there seems to be
a lot of confusion about,
Can you help us better understand the delineation between
these separate projects, and perhaps help us to understand why
the Nazi’s would run so many overlapping secret-projects
Farrell: This is really an excellent question. The short and
simple answer is that the Bell is not in any way similar to
Schauberger’s research, the purported research of the pre-war
Vril Gesellschaft, or even the Coanda Effect saucer research
associated with various names and the Peenemuende rocket
There is some resemblance between Schauberger’s
research and the Bell in that both projects - in my presentation
of the physics of the Bell - involved a well-developed vortex
mechanics and vorticular theory of the medium. And in that
respect, I suspect that there was some liaison between the
projects. Though I don’t go into this at all in the book, I’d
like to speculate a bit here on what I think that liaison may
Both Schauberger’s project and the Bell fell under
the aegis and jurisdiction of the Waffen SS, and there are
strong indicators that both projects were part of SS
Obergruppenfuehrer Hans Kammler’s super-secret black projects
empire, headquartered out of the Skoda Munitions Works’
engineering project at Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. Bohemian
Czechoslovakia was, of course, at that time, a “Reich
Protectorate” and was under the direct jurisdiction of the SS,
which made it the perfect place to headquarter and coordinate
such black projects.
Most people don’t know it, but one aspect
of Kammler’s black projects empire was its coordination via a
“think tank” of scientists that he recruited for these projects.
This department actually published and circulated its own Top
Secret “journal” of their scientific papers to each other. In
other words, these scientists were expected to brainstorm and
think outside the box, and to map out the technologies trees
necessary to bring various technologies to fruition.
I believe that this is precisely what we see with the various
Nazi saucer projects. What we’re seeing is not “absence” of
coordination or an “inefficient duplication of effort,” but
rather the steps in a technology tree that had been worked out
towards the acquisition of field propulsion machines. We see the
Coanda Effect saucers, which we may interpret in this
speculative context as a kind of “Mark I” or first step.
there are Schauberger’s devices, which are based on his
understanding of what he called “implosion”, which on
examination are devices relying on the creation of vortices,
feedback loops and so on, which would be a “Mark II”, a step
along the way toward the Bell. At the top of this tree is the
Bell itself, a project overseen by Dr. Walther Gerlach of Nobel
Prize winning fame.
Gerlach’s specialty was, of course,
gravitation, magnetic spin and resonance, and so on. So one sees
here the theoretical brains that can make sense of it all. The
projects “overlap” in other words, because they were meant to
overlap, with each stage designed to research certain aspects of
In this light - again speculating here in this interview for the
first time on this question - I believe the real purpose of the Coanda Effect saucer research was not so much to create a craft
based upon it, but to research the lift and drag problems
associated with such a craft for use in later projects.
could be made practical devices in their own right along the
way, then so much the better. The Schauberger research would
then have been to research aspects of vortex creation as a
motive power for such devices. In fact, I think in this regard
that it is interesting that the Schauberger project was started
around 1943, after the “Mark I” research was well under way.
This research would have been the ideal experimental context in
which to research and test certain concepts of vortex mechanics.
Then of course, there is the last step, the Bell itself.
I should also stress that I speak more about the Kammlerstab and
its “method of operation” in the prequel to The SS Brotherhood
of the Bell, a book called Reich of the Black Sun.
Again, at the
risk of being redundant, I don’t view these as “separated”
projects but as interrelated projects, since they bear the
signature of the Kammlerstab’s modus operandi of mapping out
technology trees and putting into place the practical projects
necessary to bring their ideas to fruition.
the subject of Nazi secret weapons has to bear this in mind,
that while the various projects - sound cannon, wind and tornado
cannon, disintegration rays and death rays, and lasers, grasers,
EMP devices, endothermic bombs and fuel-air bombs - all of it,
is not a messy or inefficient squandering of resources or
duplication of effort, since these projects were coordinated at
an extremely high level by the SS, which oversaw all patents
applications in the Reich.
AAG: Dr. Eric Davis speculated that the Nazi Bell was a
centrifuge for refining nuclear materials mined in the nearby
mountains and not any type of propulsion system or advanced
Does his speculation answer all of the
unresolved questions associated with the Bell project?
Repulsine inventor but not associated with the Bell
Farrell: That is an
interesting observation, because it is an observation I myself
made in my book
Reich of the Black Sun.
Nazi uranium enrichment centrifuge
technology is one of the little known aspects of their secret
weapons research, but in point of fact, the Nazis brought this
technology to such a state of perfection that one may safely say
that this method of uranium enrichment is a uniquely “German”
It is my belief that the Nazis used this technology
Von Ardenne’s modifications of cyclotrons with mass spectrometer
separation tanks (much like Lawrence’s beta calutrons in the
United States) - in a large uranium enrichment plant at
Auschwitz. I get into this story in Reich of the Black Sun, but
it is an essential story for the Bell, since German success with
centrifuges would have given them the necessary experience in
dealing with high rpm rotation machinery and the close precision
tolerances that were necessary in such devices.
This, of course,
was an essential component in the Bell as well, which consisted
of high rpm counter-rotating cylinders in a modified “plasma
focus” device. So yes, I believe that there is a connection
between the Bell and their centrifuge technology and their atom
That being said, there are two other connections to their atom
bomb project as well. The first is the Bell’s scientific project
Walther Gerlach himself, who is by 1944 also in charge
of the Reich’s nuclear research. But the Bell is Gerlach’s
“special baby” as it were.
I present a certain amount of
evidence in the book from the Farm Hall Transcripts plus Igor Witkowski’s research that indicate clearly that Gerlach was
investigating some very esoteric areas of physics indeed, areas
that could only have been associated with the Bell. And it is
significant that only Gerlach was subsequently interred and
interrogated by the USA after the British were through with him
at Farm Hall.
The rest of the scientists, including Hahn, Diebner, Korsching, Hartek and Heisenberg were allowed to return
to Germany. Only Gerlach was thought to be valuable enough to
In itself, this is significant, because Gerlach’s area of expertise, once again, was not related to
nuclear or quantum physics at all, but to areas associated with
magnetic resonance, particle spin, gravitation and so on.
A modern version of what the Nazi-Bell is speculated to
have looked like.
The other connection is with the
Bell’s “fuel” itself, the mysterious liquid compound called “IRR
Xerum 525” itself. I devote a whole chapter just to this aspect
of the problem in the book.
In a nutshell, though, I believe
this Serum 525 to have been an isotope of mercury which also
contained other elements, most likely themselves radioactive
isotopes, in solution or chemical composition with this mercury
isotope, and even speculate that these substances might have
been isomers, though it should be noted that if isomers were
present in the compound, it would have been in extremely minute
amounts given the technological difficulty of isolating them at
But even if this extremely speculative notion is not
actually the case, there is a certain bit of coincidental
evidence that at least one element possibly also present in this
compound may have been thorium, for it is a little known fact
that one the Nazis literally scoured Europe and denuded it of
almost all of its thorium.
This fact led to a post-war Allied
inquiry into this, which came to a dead end: no real answers
were ever found as to what happened to this thorium nor what the
Nazis were really doing with it. So it’s my suspicion that it
may have been a needed element in this Serum 525 compound.
Here is where I believe Witkowski’s analysis breaks down a bit,
though it is true as far as it goes. The mercury component of
the compound would, of course, be ideal for plasma research,
which self-evidently the Bell was designed to do.
But how does
one explain the possible presence of other isotopes?
speculation is - and again it is very speculative - that the
Nazis may have also been trying to access certain other effects
with these materials via the stress that the Bell created in
These effects might be analogous to something like the
Mossbauer Effect which is used in part in the cohering of gamma
ray emissions and so on, and thus the strange effects that the
Bell had on “jellifying” various organic materials and its
initial and quite deadly effects on humans and animals might be
explained by some such mechanism.
And I believe, and present a
certain amount of speculative reasoning in the book, that these
effects may be related to the torsion field effects or
longitudinal electric waves in the medium itself that I believe
the Nazis were really after.
Put this way, then, the Bell was
early on recognized by the Nazis as having not only a potential
for “field” propulsion, but also a weapons potential that would
have made the hydrogen bomb look like a kitchen match.
And all of this, incidentally, was right up Gerlach’s alley, for
as I also present in the book, Gerlach had actually written a
short article in a pre-war German newspaper, many years before
the Nazis came to power in fact, what sorts of amazing things
might be done with mercury when subjected to high electrical and
in-depth documentary on the secret “Brotherhood
of the Bell”
AAG: One of those biggest unresolved
questions is what happened to
Hans Kammler after the war. If he
managed to get away - and get away with the Bell, then why
haven’t we seen any hints of this technology or Kammler himself
in last half a century?
Farrell: Well that is - allowing for inflation - the sixty-four
trillion dollar question! Nick Cook, Witkowski, and I all
present evidences in our books that would seem to indicate that
General Kammler disappeared, along with the Bell and most of its
project documentation, into the bowels of some post-war American
But there is also a certain body of evidence uncovered
by British researcher Geoffrey Brooks that indicates that Kammler and the Bell wound up in Argentina at the plasma physics
laboratory that General Peron built for fleeing Nazi physicists
in Bariloche province in Argentina. While initially I followed
Witkowski and Cook’s idea that it disappeared into the USA,
lately I lean more toward the idea that the Bell remained in
independent Nazi hands.
Now, as for the question about why haven’t we seen or heard more
about this technology since the war, in fact, I think we have
heard about it, and I present this evidence in a chapter in
Reich of the Black Sun and also repeated it, in slightly
condensed form, in The SS Brotherhood of the Bell. And that
episode is: the Kecksburg UFO crash in December of 1965 in
On any number of data points the Bell and the Kecksburg “acorn” are similar, from their shape, to the
dimensions recorded by eyewitnesses for both objects, to the
peculiar sound both objects made and so on. But for me the
clincher is this: the Kecksburg “Acorn” was supposedly seen by
an eyewitness at Wright-Patterson airbase.
According to research
done by Kecksburg researcher Stan Gordon, this eyewitness worked
for a local construction company in Dayton, where one day
shortly after the incident an order was placed for thousands of
Now this is interesting, because Witkowski’s research made it
clear that the Bell was housed and tested in an underground
chamber that was constructed from ceramic bricks! So in other
words, we have not only the same dimensions and shapes recorded
for the two objects, but also the same physical environment is
reported for both. I think this is highly significant and
suggestive, since the Kecksburg accounts pre-date the
descriptions of the Bell uncovered by Witkowski.
In other words,
the possibilities of collusion between the two stories is almost nill.
SS Gen Hans Kammler:
Military leader in charge of the secret
Nazi-Bell development effort in Poland.
It is also intriguing to me that by
any account, the American military showed up in Kecksburg so
quickly after the object there had crash-landed.
in other words, was ready to go, and, it would seem, merely
waiting to find out exactly where the object came down in order
to recover it. To my mind then, the parallels between the two
objects is significant and a possible connection - or even
identity - between the two should not be too readily dismissed.
If this is so, then it puts a new spin
- not to coin a pun - on
the question of what happened to Kammler and the Bell, for if
the Bell was not in American hands at the end of the war, then
by the time of Kecksburg, it or a similar device was recovered
AAG: Is this a dead story, or is somebody actively trying to
keep this technology a secret? A friend of mine visited the Bell
test-site in 2006, and was told by the local villagers that a
business conglomerate had bought the test site, and would be
demolishing it to build a factory on the site. In my friend’s
case, he decided to quit asking questions and move on to another
Do you think that was simple paranoia, or do the
proverbial walls have eyes?
Farrell: No, I don’t think it’s paranoia at all, and I do think
there is evidence - and I go into this extensively in the book - that someone, somewhere, is using “active measures” including
so-called “wet operations” to maintain the secrecy surrounding
Even on the view that the Bell is “merely” a
field propulsion device relying on torsion fields or
electro-longitudinal waves in a kind of hyper-relativity, that
would be a technology well worth protecting, for it implies the engineerability of local space-time curvature.
Once we have said
that, we open the Pandora's box to the use of the same type of
technology to engineer or stress local space-time for
weaponization purposes, i.e., for destructive purposes. And
that, of course, would - to be repetitive here again - make a
hydrogen bomb look like a kitchen match. So yes, anyone having
access to such technology would seek to suppress it for two
reasons: to maintain their monopoly, and to prevent a
proliferation nightmare beyond the wildest nightmares of cold
war think-tank wargamers from occurring. In a certain sense I
guess what I am saying is that, given mankind’s propensity for
warfare and destruction, such a technology would have to be
But however one looks at it, I don’t think
suppression can ever be a successful strategy, simply because
the type of physics the Bell represents will inevitably get out.
After all, your own website has numerous references to various
physicists and engineers - people like Bearden, Dering, and so
on - whose theories I believe play directly into the theoretical
development that I believe lies behind the Bell.
AAG: Now in terms of conspiracies, the part that bothers me is
that neither the USA nor the Russians seem to have this
technology. So if something is still going on, where is it, who
has it, and why hasn’t it ever gone public?
Maybe this leads
back to the question of where Hans Kammler fled to after the
A photo taken from the top of the Bell
‘flytrap’ by an anonymous source in mid-2005.
A photo of the
Nazi Bell 'flytrap',
showing heavy-duty steel mounting bolts
sheared off by what appears to be a welder.
Farrell: Well, to some extent I have
answered this already.
If my Kecksburg speculations are true,
then something like the Bell clearly ends up in American hands
by 1965, if it was not already in American hands at the end of
the war. But as I mentioned previously, I am increasingly
inclined to the view that the Bell simply disappeared into the
labyrinth of post-war independent Nazi research conducted in
places like South America and under the nominal oversight of
Nazi-friendly governments like Peron’s Argentina or, later,
Nazi connections and influence in the vast
Latin American drug cartels and their criminal activities would
have provided a nearly inexhaustible supply of funds, plus
accomplish at the same time a strategic goal of weakening a
former enemy, namely the USA.
The reason I incline increasingly
to this “independent and continuing Nazi” development for the
Bell is simply, as you say, the fact that the technology and
science simply seems to have disappeared entirely.
AAG: In addition to Kammler, you’ve raised a number of questions
about German scientists such as Von Braun and Debus. They came
to the USA as
Operation Paperclip scientists, and what made them
valuable was their knowledge of these Nazi secret-weapons
programs. Can you tell us which of them were prominent in your
research, and what you found about their activities during and
after the war?
Farrell: Oh wow, another excellent and provocative question!
Well, to me, beyond Gerlach himself, the most interesting of
these characters has always been Dr.
intriguing for the speculative possibilities that he represents,
because he ends up, of course, as a senior administrator in NASA
of the Kennedy Space Flight Center during the Apollo program. As
an administrator, then, this means that he has his fingers in
almost every pie there is inside NASA, and thus he as a very
clear picture of what’s really going on.
This is intriguing, then, for yet other reasons, for as I make
clear in SS Brotherhood, Debus was an ardent Nazi, and nearly
created chaos in the Bell project by denouncing a fellow
engineer to the Gestapo. One of the firms involved with the
Bell, the Allgemeine Elektricitäts Gemeinshaft,
A.E.G., had to
intervene to free the man whom Debus had denounced to allow the
project to continue.
It is due to this intervention that we know
that the Bell was given its own unique classification, the
highest classification, in fact, in the Third Reich, a
classification that made the Bell not only a Geheime Reichsache
but Kriegsenscheidend, or “War Decisive”, a classification found
in absolutely no other secret project in all of Nazi Germany,
including its successful fuel-air, and its atom bomb, projects.
But beyond this, Debus is interested for what his specialty in
science was, and for his connection both to Von Braun’s
Peenemünde rocket team and to the Bell project, connections
which were, in each case, direct. With Debus, then, we have one
of those “overlaps” that is so characteristic of the Kammlerstab.
Debus was the man who designed the powerplant for the Bell! Now
this is very intriguing to me, because his specialty was the
measurement of extremely high voltage direct current discharges!
I find this very suggestive, for I
present evidence in the book, based on Witkowski’s observations,
that the Bell may have also been a pulsed device utilizing HV DC
pulses, a fact made the more interesting in that the Nazis
apparently built an entire power plant very near the Bell’s test
sites in lower Silesia, a fact that would possibly indicate
another connection to the use of DC electricity in the device,
since close proximity to such a power source would have been
required if DC were used, much like Edison’s DC power plants
would have had to have been placed every few miles or so for
practical electrification along DC lines.
But whatever one makes of these speculations, Debus is
interesting of course because he ends up as a senior
administrator in a space flight center in NASA during the Apollo
program, and his specialty is not even rockets at all! I suggest
in the book that this is because there may have been a hidden or
alternative technology involved in the Lunar Excursion Module (LEM)
that got us OFF the Moon.
Please don’t get me wrong here. I’m
not one of those “Apollo was hoaxed” people at all. I am not
even remotely sympathetic to such views. But I do share the
concern that I don’t really see the signatures of a rocket
taking off from the Moon in those films of the LEMs taking off.
It doesn’t look like an acceleration that is geometric enough to
be a rocket; it just sort of “pops up” and off it goes at more
or less - it looks to me - like uniform velocity, though I must
admit I haven’t actually done any measurements or not to see if
this is the case. I am merely reporting what my eyes see and my
mind tells me based upon those perceptions.
So, lacking this “geometric enough” signature of a rocket’s
acceleration, we might be dealing with an alternative
technology, a field propulsion technology, in getting us OFF the
Moon, and the presence of Debus in NASA in his position would be
the perfect place both to place someone who was once involved in
such a project, and as well the perfect place to put someone in
order to keep that technology quiet.
In short, the Paperclip
Nazis in NASA reconstructed as much of that technology as they
could, and used it to get us off of a Moon which they possibly
knew to be more massive than popularly reported, which, if the
case, would have made a return vehicle based merely on rockets
AAG: As I understand things, in “SS Brotherhood of the Bell” you
challenge the notion that the
Majestic 12 was founded in
response to a UFO crash in Roswell, and instead speculate that
they were somehow a product of American worries about these Nazi
technologies, right? Can you elaborate a bit of this notion?
Farrell: Well, it’s an idea I elaborate both in Reich of the
Black Sun and in The SS Brotherhood of the Bell. Basically I do
not question the
Roswell crash or the MJ-12 Cooper-Cantwheel
documents. I accept them as “givens” in order to make an
academic argument, i.e., to present an alternative explanation
of the crash and the documents’ own contents.
As such, many
people do not really understand what I’m trying to do and
misinterpret it. In short, my method is to examine the internal
evidence of the documents themselves by way of a comparison to
known Nazi secret weapons projects such as the Coanda effect
saucers, and so on, and to compare these known technologies with
the technological descriptions found in the documents
The long and short of it is, that the documents do
not describe a technology exotic enough to be extraterrestrial,
though they do describe a technology exotic enough to be Nazi.
Thus, the documents themselves also allude time and again to the
involvement of the “paperclip” people in the assessment of the
crashed vehicle. So I my view, what really would have set the
alarm bells ringing in the American military was if something
Nazi had crashed there, for it would mean that the former
“defeated” enemy was alive, well, and continuing its projects
somewhere out there.
On this view, then, the “ET” line, at least
as far as Roswell is concerned, would merely have been a final
deeply embedded layer of disinformation, a final “deep cover”
story to cover up the exotic, though still terrestrial, and Nazi
nature of what was recovered there.
Dr. Kurt Debus:
Part of Von Braun’s V2 team, and later a Launch
Director at NASA
AAG: You know, I think “Dr
Strangelove” effectively made the point that ex-Nazi scientists
had their own agendas, and letting them work in our government
after the war might have some unintended consequences. In
Kubrick’s film, Strangelove mistakenly calls our President “Mein Führer” on two occasions… suggesting that these scientists had
their own agendas, regardless of which government they worked
Any thoughts on this?
Farrell: I believe I’ve answered this in some respects with my
Kecksburg and Roswell speculations. But to expand on it a bit,
Paperclip was but the tip of the iceberg in post-war Nazi
penetration of various departments of the American government.
We must remember that long before President Truman had even
signed the National Security Act of 1947, which created the CIA
and NSA, their civilian character and charter was already
severely compromised by the fact that the CIA’s predecessor, the
OSS, had taken over, lock stock and barrel, General
Gehlen’s Fremde Heere Ost, or “Foreign Armies East”, the
Wehrmacht’s military intelligence on the Eastern front, inside
of the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe.
From a certain
standpoint, then, the entire “Soviet Operations and Analysis”
desk of the CIA was staffed almost entirely by Nazis, who
remained under Gehlen’s direct control.
And the American who did
this wonderful “service” for our country was none other than OSS
Zurich station chief Allen Dulles. And I’ll let your readers
work out the connections and implications from there, because
AAG: Before this interview, we had a few interesting
conversations on topics relating to WW-II secret weapons, and it
seems that references to W.A. Harbinson’s Projekt Saucer series
keep coming up - especially in reference to his fictional novel
“Genesis”, which speculates that the worldwide wave of UFO
sightings that started in 1947 might actually have been from
Nazi technology developed near the end of the war. How do you
think this fits with your speculation about the origin of
Farrell: Well it fits quite well with it. In fact, one thing
that I find rather unusual is that so many novelists seemed to
be ahead of the curve of more factually based researchers on
this question. For example, years before Witkowski’s research
was published, in fact, before even the German reunification
itself, the famous novelist Dean Koontz wrote a novel called
It is about a German secret weapon which is a “time
travel” machine. While that sounds rather extraordinary and
fanciful, it is Koontz’s descriptions of his fictional time
machine that give one pause, for he describes a rotating
cylinder using tremendous electrical power, which gives off some
extreme electrostatic displays and effects! Now, I find that a
little too coincidental to be coincidental…
How did Koontz know
this or come up with this?
Harbison’s Projekt Saucer novels are another case in point, as
you observe. But what I find very interesting with his novels is
that there is no real parallel with the Bell, while there are
plenty of parallels with the Coanda Effect and Schuaberger
devices. But Harbison is interesting precisely because his
novels present the view that this type of research was continued
by some independent group of Nazis after the war.
Martin Caidin’s novel
The Mendelov Conspiracy, in which, again,
an independent group of somewhat cranky scientists pursues their
independent technological development of saucers.
Now here’s the decisive point: the only hard evidence that
exists tends to point to the line of continued Nazi post-war
research and development, and not to any other group.
evidence, once again, consists of,
the disappearance of the
Bell, its documentation, and General Kammler
establishment of a plasma physics research lab in Bariloche
province in Argentina by General Peron, a facility established
for his Nazi scientists; such a laboratory would be congruent
with the type of physics and engineering involved with the Bell
General Kammler and the Bell disappear, apparently, in a
massive six-engined Junkers 390 heavy-lift airplane, a plane
capable of flying non-stop from Europe to Argentina
Geoffrey Brooks’ evidence, based allegedly on examination of
classified Argentine government documents, that Kammler and the
Bell did indeed fly into Argentina; and finally, and no less
the probable disappearance of the Nazi financial
mastermind Martin Bormann, de facto and most probable chief of
any post-war “Nazi International”, into South America, as the
research of Ladislas Farago (Aftermath) and others indicated,
and Bormann’s and the post-war “Nazi International’s” deep
financial penetration into various corporations and also into
There’s your money supply.
My belief, then, is that if there was a continued and
independently coordinated and controlled Nazi development of
their wartime black projects, that this was probably done not
only in totally independent projects, but also “inside” of the
black projects of other nations, using those nations’ own
compartmentalized security features against them, and to cloak
their own covertly coordinated activities.
When one thinks about
it, it would not be all that difficult to do, and it also
supplies another source of funding.
Projekt Saucer - Book Two - Genesis
Author W.A. Harbinson’s account of Nazi UFO
Projects at Peenemunde during WW-II.
A fictionalized account of Nazi UFO Projects at
Peenemunde during the Second World War.
AAG: Interestingly, in Harbinson’s
later novel, “Inception”, he speculates that secret-weapons and
advanced propulsion technology have been around for decades
before the war, and that Germany’s involvement during the war
came only from being fertile ground in which to develop existing
Do you think there’s any merit to that
Farrell: Yes I definitely do think there’s merit to it, and in
fact, present evidence that the Bell project may have been the
legacy of secret research actually begun under the Weimar
Republic, and again, under the aegis of Walther Gerlach.
Tom Bearden has never tired of pointing out, one of the
seminal papers for “scalar” physics was the paper “On the
partial differential equations of mathematical physics,” by
renowned Physicist E.T. Whittaker, a paper which I have and have
It is as breathtaking as Bearden makes it out
to be, but what I think he misses, to a certain extent, is the
significance of where it was published: it was published in Mathematische Annalen, in Germany.
So we have a very fertile
conceptual and socio-scientific climate inside Germany with
figures like Gerlach, Thirring (who was actually Austrian),
Einstein, Hilgenberg, Krafft, and so on, who can look at certain
experiments, or, for that matter, certain tensor expressions in
Einstein’s late 20s and early 30s versions of his unified field
theory, and conclude that locally engineerable stresses in
space-time - a kind of “hyper-relativity” - was possible via
certain types of plasma and electromagnetic phenomena.
With Hilgenberg, particularly, we have an entirely worked out
vorticular theory of the medium that is an alternative to
relativisitic physics, and therefore would have been of interest
to the Nazis.
And Gerlach, of course, would certainly have had
the mental prowess capable of dressing up Einstein’s UFT, or
even of extending it, and making it presentable to the Nazis.
AAG: What does strike me about this “pre-war secret weapons”
notion is that
Unified Field Theory research became well-known
Kaluza-Klein Theory in 1921, which was one of Einstein’s
own inspirations in trying to unify gravitation with the other
Does it seem difficult to imagine military-scientists
attempting applied physics projects during the war that might
produce effects like those described in the Bell experiment?
Farrell: Oh no, not at all. In fact, not just Kaluza-Klein but
there is also Vaclac Hlavaty’s six dimensional extension of it - if I recall correctly it was six dimensions. Someone like Gerlach could certainly have extended these theories and
additionally would have been able to appreciate the longitudinal
wave work of Tesla, or for that matter, would have understood
the enormous significance of Whittaker’s paper.
And his student,
of course, was Hilgenberg.
AAG: I understand that you’re a deeply spiritual man, with a PhD
in Patristics - the study of early (pre 8th-century)
Christianity. As someone with a deep and abiding spiritual
faith, is it difficult to write about topics involving the type
of evil that the Nazi’s seem to have embodied?
Farrell: No, quite the reverse, actually. In a way, it’s almost
a moral imperative to write about it, and to warn people of the
nastier and destructive implications of these types of
technologies. By the same token, I’m not a Luddite, and don’t
believe technologies like this can or should be suppressed.
Similarly, though, it gives me a perspective from which to
appreciate the possible ethically sound reasons why various
elites would wish to suppress such technologies, for they are,
as I have already averred, capable of spawning a proliferation
nightmare of weapons far more dangerous than hydrogen bombs,
and, from a certain standpoint, weapons much easier to design,
engineer, and assemble.
Any physics based on these types of
stresses in the medium, or in local space-time curvature,
whether one calls it torsion physics or scalar physics or
quantum potential physics or whatever, has the potential for weaponization of just horrendously destructive capabilities. I’m
trying to let people know, in addition to the many good benefits
that such a physics would have - benefits many others have
written about - that this physics also has some very disturbing
negative potentials as well, and that to handle them we should
have some spiritual enlightenment or maturity.
It is, in a way,
similar to Einstein’s activism in his later life, for he also
had his religious and philosophical foundations and these, in
turn, gave him some unique insights into the ethical problems
posed by modern physics.
AAG: Is it possible that the public’s fascination with Nazi
secret-weapons might be a type of coping mechanism to let us
avoid having to emotionally deal with the evils of that War?
Certainly WW-II embodied depravity on an entirely new level, and
I wonder if perhaps some of the mythology surrounding
secret-weapons might not be a means of avoiding the cold, hard
reality of the atrocities that occurred during that period.
it more comfortable for us to think of scientists in white coats
building UFO’s than to think of groups of starving prisoners
huddled in war camps, and being slaughtered in numbers too large
Farrell: Well, it might be possible to imagine that, and perhaps
that forms some of the motivations for some people, but if so,
they are massively misinformed, for as I point out in both
books, but particularly in Reich of the Black Sun, the Nazis
were able to fulfill the massive labor requirements of their
atom bomb program and other secret weapons projects with
concentration camp slave labor, which was, of course,
What we must absolutely recognize is
that all Nazi secret weapons, including the Bell, were purchased
at an enormous and incalculable cost in human suffering and
misery, and not just their rockets.
This is why their atom bomb
project was so easy to portray as an inept, bungling,
miserly-funded effort, when in fact it was none of those things.
Secret Weapons: Reich of the Black Sun
an early foray into
WW-II secret weapons by Joseph Farrell.
AAG: I’d like to close by asking
where people can buy a copy of “SS Brotherhood of the Bell, as
well as learning about any plans or ideas for future books that
you might working on. What’s next from Joseph Farrell, and when
do you expect we’ll see it?
I just finished a new book called
The Cosmic War: Interplanetary
Warfare, Modern Physics, and Ancient Texts, which should be out
by the fall of 2007, and am scratching some notes down for a
couple of ideas for two different books, one a kind of sequel to
Brotherhood and another having to do more with hidden political
histories of the Second World War.
The Cosmic War more or less
extends the method I’ve used in my other books of taking modern
conceptions in alternative physics and using them to examine
some ideas in ancient texts.