Start of interview
Kerry Cassidy (KC): I'm Kerry Cassidy, and weíre
here with David Icke and Bill Ryan. And we're going to be doing
what we call a Futuretalk. Itís basically sort of a roundtable
discussion in which we kind of bat around ideas. Certainly
youíre going to be the focal point, and we want to really hear
from you on whatever subjects you get sparked by in the course
David Icke (DI): OK. No problem.
KC: And then weíll just kind of run with it and see how
Bill Ryan (BR): Something that I would like to say
is that I think we get more emails, and have done over the three
years that weíve been going, asking us to interview you, and
wondering if thereís some weird reason why we havenít.
DI: And now weíre both together. Here we are. Itís all
synchronistic in the end.
BR: In the end.
KC: Absolutely. So weíre here in Sedona, and youíre here, and it
was great that we were able to connect with you.
KC: So, where we want to go with this is, we have whistle
blowers, and Iím curious. Have you got your own sort of secret
sources that have been giving you information through the years?
DI: No. What happened to me is I had an extraordinary
experience, or series of experiences, in the early 1990s. I was
a television presenter and a national spokesman for the British
Suddenly I felt, over 1989, that there was a ďpresenceĒ in the
room whenever I was alone, and it became more and more tangible
as 1989 unfolded. It was bizarre, really, ícause the Green Party
in Britain had their biggest electoral year in 1989 out of
And I was going through all this whenever I was in a room alone,
like a hotel room or something. There was this presence, you
know. Eventually it got so powerful towards the end of í89 that
I was sitting on the side of a bed in a hotel called the
Kensington Hilton in London, just down from the BBC
BR: I know it.
DI: ...and I said to this apparently empty room: Look, if
thereís something there, would you please contact me, because
youíre driving me up the wall.
About two weeks later, it must have been, Iím with my son. He
was a little boy then. Heís a singer-songwriter now, in his
BR: Heís six foot four.
DI: Yes. This is Gaz... Gareth. We were playing football, and we
were going to go down into the town and get some lunch. I lived
in a seaside resort in a place called the Isle of Wight in
England. And as we got down toward this ĎGreasy Joeí Cafe,
somebody, some railway worker, stopped me and started talking
about football because I was on the television talking about
sport and stuff.
Then after this conversation was finished, I saw that Gareth
wasnít there. I knew where he would be. He would be in the news
shop just down, next to us. So I walked in and he was reading
steam train books, because he liked steam trains, like me. And I
said to him: Come on, Gareth. Weíll go and get some lunch.
And as I turned, my feet wouldnít move. Now, this is a guy whoís
not been into any of this stuff. Heís a television presenter,
national spokesman for the Green Party, a journalist basically,
and my feet wouldnít move.
And I heard Ė it wasnít really a voice, but a very strong
thought-form passed through my mind, which didnít seem attached
to me. Why would I think it? And it said: Go and look at the
books on the far side.
So I went over, and in among the romantic novels was this book
with a womanís face on the front. I picked it up ícause it was
so different to the rest, turned it over, saw the word psychic.
So I read this book in 24 hours and I wrote to her and went to
see her. And what I told her was I had arthritis - which I have
- and maybe a hands-on healing would help. I told her not the
real reason I went, which was: Would she pick up what the heck
this presence is Iíd been feeling for nearly a year? Well,
actually, a full year by then.
I went the first couple of times Ė and I saw her four times - and she did the hands-on healing and we had a chat about other
dimensions and stuff. It all made sense to me, because Iíd
always rejected religion and Iíd always rejected the scientific
view of reality. I just hadnít focused on: OK. Whatís the
And then the third time I went, Iím lying there on this
medical-type bench thing, and I felt like a spiderís web on my
face, which really took me aback because I had read in her book
that when other dimensions, or whatever, spirits or whatever you
want to use, are trying to lock in to you, you sometimes feel
like a spiderís web on your face.
Well, funny enough, I never had before and I never have since,
but at that moment it was seriously powerful, real tangible. So
Iím going: Oh my goodness! Whatís going on? And she is kind of
doing this by my left knee. And I never said a word to her.
And then suddenly she launches her head back and goes: My God!
Iíve got to close my eyes for this one. This is powerful. And
she sees this figure in her mind. She says: This figure - or
whatever she called it - is asking me to pass information to
Take into account, you know, Iím a television presenter,
presenting the sport and the news at the time.
And suddenly she starts saying that this entity, or this
projection of Consciousness, was saying that I was going to go
out on a world stage eventually and reveal great secrets. That
there was a shadow across the world that had to be lifted. That
there was going to be a spiritual revolution in my lifetime
because of a vibrational change.
Thatís why the first book I wrote was called Truth Vibrations,
after that vibrational change. And one line was: One man cannot
change the world, but one man can communicate the message that
will change the world. I would write five books in three years.
Iím sitting there thinking: I know nothing about this stuff.
[laughs] Five books in three years! You must be having a laugh!
You know. This was all new to me.
I wrote five books in three years, to the month, and I didnít
realize Iíd done it until I realized it was five and then went
back. It was five books, to the month, in three years from that
I went back another time, and the next time there was some more.
So I left and waited.
Something felt right about it, even though my mindís going:
Within weeks the BBC had decided they werenít going to renew my
contact, even though I was the youngest one in their department.
I was an in-by-a-mile presenter, and it would seem that I would
have had a lifetime, a working-lifetime future there.
When I look back at that thought, my emotional chakra, you know,
starts vibrating wildly. The thought of being in the media all
my life! Oh, my God! When I look back... nightmare.
Anyway, so now Iím out of work, but I feel I have to go with
this. And fortunately Iíve always lived below my income because
I have a very... You know, Iím minimalist me. Iíd rather have
the money to go to India than a big house with a mortgage on it.
Anyway. So I had enough money to keep me going for a year. And
then it all started, this synchronistic, almost-daily... ah...
this daily journey through a maze. And when I started out, it
was a thick maze. I had no idea what this was all about. I just
felt I had to go with it. I didnít even know why I had to go
with it. I just had this... Got to go with this.
And whatís happened is, itís like some force has been opening
and closing doors, so I go down this road in a maze and not this
And so, coming around to answering your question directly, I
just follow, and have followed now for nearly 20 years, this
pulsing, this urging, this knowing that passes through me. So I
edit my life on the basis of that: Will you go here? Donít feel
to. Will you go here? Yeah. Iíll be there.
And what has happened as the result of just doing that is Iíve
walked into people, experiences, information, books, documents,
which has taken me, when I look back, on a very specific
journey. Iíve described it before. Itís like you try to put a
jigsaw puzzle together, and some force is handing you the
KC: We feel the exact same way.
BR: Weíve had the same experience.
DI: ...almost in the right order that you can encompass them in
the picture most easily.
KC: Mm hm.
DI: And so, first of all, in the early years of the í90s and
through to about 1996, all the synchronicity was about the
five-sense level of this conspiracy - banking scams, families
connecting, the same people behind this, and behind that, and
behind that; whoís behind the drug networks, and all that stuff.
Banking families and engineered wars. What was really behind the
Second World War, the First World War? And whatís this network
that is the guiding force of this conspiracy? All that stuff.
And then from about í96, when I came to America to talk about
this for the first time... And lots of people turned up. I
talked to eight people in Chicago, I remember that. That was
what you might call an expeditionary three months, because I was
talking to myself most of the time. But I was picking up
information as I passed around.
What started then, from 1996 onwards, was the next stage of
this, which is these families, which Iíd learned so much about
in the years before, were actually connected to some non-human
race, or entities, for which they were basically fronting-up an
agenda within this five-sense reality. Thatís when I went into
the whole reptilian stuff.
Of course, the
synchronicity of my life, and my personal
journey, and my communication of information are fundamentally
connected, because a massive part of my life is, as Iíve been
learning more and more, you know, my personal journey has been
clearing out my own body computer programming so that I can
access higher and higher levels of
Consciousness. Of course
everyoneís got the opportunity to do that and many people are
doing it now.
So Iíve had great challenges in my life at the same time as
doing the information to break this up Ė break these programs
up. One of the biggest ones happened in 1991 when I started
talking about what was happening to me.
Of course, I was a well-known television presenter in Britain,
so there was monumental ridicule, of a kind that few people can
actually experience. I mean, I would walk down the street and be
laughed at by most of the people in the street for like two,
three years. A comedian only had to say my name, no joke
necessary, and get a laugh.
KC: [laughs] But can we go back to that? Because I would love to
sort of drill down and find out what... How did you actually get
into the reptilian situation?
DI: Well, yeah, what I was just going to say... The reason I
bring this up about the synchronicity of my life is because from
1996, when I started going through the reptilian stuff, because
Iíd been through that massive ridicule in the early 1990s, it
had cleared me out of the key thing that most people live in -
the prison that most people live in - which is the fear of what
other people think. Therefore, to me, coming out from the late
í90s about the reptilian stuff was not a problem because the
level of ridicule could not be greater than what is before.
KC: But why did you have ridicule before? Because the only
ridicule I knew was about the reptilians.
DI: Oh, no! I will tell you another story that leads into that.
Towards the end of 1990, when I had finished the book,
Vibrations, and it went off to the publisher to be published in
the spring of 1991, I had this overwhelming feeling - again, the
urge, the impulse - to go to Peru. And I had no idea why. I just
had to go to Peru.
So I get on a plane to Peru, not knowing why Iím going there,
and I land in Lima airport. From the moment I landed amazing
synchronistic things happened. But eventually I had this
Peruvian guide chap who was taking me around.
Funnily enough, the first time I met that guy was in Cuzco, in
the old Inca region. And I went íround to his house, because we
were going off traveling around Peru from that day, and heís
lying on his back asleep. And I walked in because the door was
open, and he looked up at me and he said, not: Hello, but: Did
you have any dreams last night?
What? I said: Well, actually I did. I said: I had a real big
clear Technicolor dream that one of these two front teeth fell
out. Canít remember which one.
And he said: Is your father or grandfather still alive?
I said: Well, my father is. Yeah. I said: Why?
He said: Well, thatís usually symbolic of your father or your
I thought: Well this guyís going to be a bunch of laughs for the
next three weeks.
KC: [laughs] Wow!
DI: And when I next got a call out of Peru, my father had died
back in England. It was unbelievable.
KC: Oh my God.
DI: Anyway, I go around with this guy and where it all leads,
which kind of... Fundamentally it leads to the reason behind the
Eventually he put us in a hotel called the Sillustani in Puno.
Itís kind of southern Peru, not far from Lake Titicaca. The
Sillustani Hotel was named after an Inca ruin site about an
hour, hour-and-a-halfís drive away. So thereís pictures of this
place all over the hotel, of the ruins. And I said to the guy: I
want to go there.
So we go out. I think he did a deal to get some money out of me
because I go out in like a little tourist bus with windows on
the side, with a tourist bus driver, and the guide and me.
Nobody else. [Bill laughs]
We go out to this place, and itís in the middle of nowhere.
Basically when you looked around, it was encircled by mountains
- in the distance, mind. And I go there. The only people there
are a couple of children with llamas for tourist photographs,
but there were no tourists.
So I walk around for about an hour, and itís very nice. Itís on
a hill with a lagoon on three sides. I go back to the car. And
Iím... it was nice, but it didnít match the urge I had to go
So I get into the van thing and we start to drive away. And Iím
looking out the window, day-dreaming, and I see this mound to my
right. It must have been no more than three minutes down the
road. And as I look at the mound, all I can hear in my head is:
Come to me. Come to me. Come to me. Come to me. What? Iím really
new to this stuff. I mean: Whatís going on with my life?
So I said to the guide: Can you stop the van? - the bus thing.
Iím going up the mound. So I went up the mound. I couldnít see
it from the road, but when I got to the top, there was a circle
of standing stones about waist-high. These stones had obviously
been there a very, very long time.
So I walk into the middle of this circle, and Iím looking across
to Sillustani, and across to the distant mountains, and itís a
piercing-hot Peruvian day. No clouds, not a cloud in the sky.
Very much like this one today.
I walked to the center of the circle, and suddenly my feet go
again, like they did in the news shop, but only seriously more
powerful. Thereíre like magnets pulling my feet to the ground.
And I think: Oh crikey. I recognize that. Here we go.
And then I felt like a drill going in the top of my head and
through my body, through my feet, into the ground. And then
another one coming the other way.
And then my arms go out at 45 degrees like that. I never made
any decision to do it. And of course, you hold your arms out
there for a minute, it starts to ache, or my shoulders do
anyway. It was the best part of an hour... it must be 45 minutes
to an hour my arms were like that. When it was over, my
shoulders were agony, but when it was going on, nothing.
What then started to happen is this energy coming through me.
This is February 1991. It got more and more powerful. My body
started to shake with it, and I had two very powerful
thought-forms pass through my head, just like in the news shop.
The first one said: Theyíll be talking about this 100 years from
now. And Iím thinking: Talking about what?
And the other one was: It will be over when you feel the rain.
Iíve just described what the weather was like. ďIt will be over
when you feel the rainĒ? I mean, youíre having a laugh, mate.
So what happened then, for the next 45 minutes - because time
disappeared; there was no time; I worked it out later Ė was that
this energy just kept coming through me. And I kept going in and
out of, if you like, awareness, consciousness, like driving a
car and you go: Crikey. Where did the last two miles go?
One of these times when I came back to kind of awareness, I
noticed that over the distant mountains there was a light gray
mist. And kind of as I watched it, it got darker and darker very
quickly, and I realized it was pouring rain on the distant
Over the next little while, however long it was, I watched this
storm come out of the mountains. Weather people talk about, you
know, a ďweather frontĒ. Well, this was a straight line. The
cloud was a straight line. Iíve described it many times. It was
like drawing the curtains across the sky.
This thingís coming towards me, and as it got closer, the sunís
gone. Itís been covered. All the clouds are billowing and Iím
seeing faces in the clouds. It didnít make sense to me, but I
saw faces in the clouds.
And then itís a wall of rain. Iím watching it coming towards me.
By this time Iím hanging on, you know, with this energy coming
through me. Eventually it hits me - torrential rain - and
everything stopped. Thatís when I staggered forward and my
shoulders were agony and all the rest of it.
Many other things happened, but when I came back to England
after that... As I said earlier, my book was published in the
early part of 1991, which is a matter of a very short time after
When I look back now, it was like... You know, if youíve got a
dam and itís holding water back, the water is calm - right? -
because thatís its natural state in that situation, if you like.
But when the dam bursts, before a new balance is found after the
damn bursts, all hell breaks loose in the water - right? - as
itís trying to go from one state to another.
DI: When I look back, what happened to me on that mound, it was
like the waters of my mind bursting, and for three months I
didnít know what planet I was on. Right?
In the middle of this, my book came out, and I went on the
biggest live-chat show in Britain at the time - it was called
the Wogan Show - in a complete bloody daze about what was
happening to me. It had all been in the national papers that
basically I had gone crazy.
And I was sitting in this chair in the chat show and the
audience was laughing within a minute, two minutes. And they
basically laughed for... I think I must have been on about
fifteen, sixteen, seventeen minutes, and from that moment on,
because I was talking about what was happening to me, except I
didnít understand what was happening to me, and what that did
was trigger the most extraordinary levels of ridicule. And...
ah... it cleared me out of that fear of what other people think.
But I learned so much about human behavior, I remember, because
what youíre supposed to do when you face that scale of ridicule
is run and hide. Right?
BR: That is one of the means thatís used to control us.
DI: Yeah. So what I did is, I went on a university speaking tour
[Kerry laughs] in front of all these students who had not come
to listen. Theyíd come to laugh. Right?
KC: My understanding is that what you had is a kundalini
experience. Do you relate to it like that or do you call it
DI: I donít care.
KC: But have you investigated or has anyone talked to you about
DI: No. No. I mean, Iíve talked to people about kundalini
experience, and maybe it was. See, what I do - I can only talk
for myself Ė is: What is, is. You know?
One of the things that was said to me by the psychic, or through
the psychic in 1990 when all this started for me was, theyíre
saying: You will face enormous opposition but they will always
be there to protect you.
Now, I donít know who they are. Iíve hardly even thought about
who they are, because when I leave this genetic spacesuit, I
will know who they are. All I do is I go with my intuition.
And what happened to me in 1991, with the great ridicule, was,
as life so often does, it gave me my greatest gift brilliantly
disguised as my worst nightmare, because thatís what it was at
the time and in the experiencing of it.
So what actually happened to me is, something transformed my
sense of perception and thatís good enough for me. I donít
really have to know the detail of what happened. But a kundalini
experience? It could well have been. Yeah.
BR: And in the meantime itís got something to do with tempering
DI: Say again?
BR: Tempering the steel.
DI: Tempering the steel... Yeah. Because as I keep coming back
to... my personal journey and what Iím doing in terms of
communicating information absolutely are One.
I was going to say what happened to me when I went out on that
university speaking tour. It was the University of Nottingham.
There were a thousand people there. I would say 950 had come to
laugh. I walked out on the stage, and it was literally the best
part of fifteen minutes before I could speak, because it was
just abuse, ridicule, laughter, plastic beer glasses thrown at
I just stood there and waited for it to die down, because it had
to eventually, and when it did, I said: You think Iím mentally
ill, donít you? And you know what itís like: [imitates raucous
audience response] Wellll yuuh... [and other rude
And I said: So what does that say about you? Because youíve
actually paid to come here to ridicule someone you actually
believe is mentally ill. [Kerry laughs] I tell you what, you
could hear a pin drop. And you could hear a pin drop for the
rest of the night.
To do what Iíve done in terms of talking about some really
bizarre things, you know, my name still only has to be mentioned
in a national newspaper in Britain and itís like complete
ridicule, whatever Iím saying.
BR: Itís toned down a bit.
DI: A little bit, but not very much. I mean, I stood for
election in a parliamentary bi-election in July last year, July
2008 - not to get elected - I knew I wouldnít get any votes; I
didnít want any votes. I mean, I must be the first parliamentary
candidate ever to put out a leaflet to everyone in the
constituency saying: I donít want your votes, just your brief
attention. Goodness me, I didnít want to get involved in that!
But, again, it was a great experience and I learned a lot from
But the media coverage was... I did a media presentation for the
national press which was about, I donít know, 50 minutes,
PowerPoint pictures and stuff, in which I talked about the
five-sense level of it. Because anything else, I mean, even that
blew their bloody minds. Anything else, reptilians... I mean,
What they did is they just went away and just abused me, and
abused it, and ridiculed me. And ironically, the one that did
the most abuse... One of the things I said was coming, actually
about six weeks later, was actually the front page story in his
own newspaper. I mean, itís bizarre. These people have total
cognitive dissonance so that they canít put these two things
So itís still there, but it doesnít matter, you know. Weíre in a
situation where, thanks to the Internet, we can bypass these sad
people that work with their concrete minds in the mainstream
BR: And you donít have to reach everybody, just enough people.
Itís The Hundredth Monkey principle.
DI: Yeah. Iíll tell you what I feel more and more, you know. I
mean... Look, I can feel it when I speak, anyone speaks. Itís a
vibrational communication. Thereís silence between you and me.
Thereís silence when you speak to me until my brainís decoded
What it is, is vibrational communication. And I feel very
strongly that itís not just the people that hear this
information, itís the fact that this informationís circulating.
If you do an interview for a radio station, 100,000 people might
listen to it. But that broadcast frequency carrying that
information is passing through the ether, if you like, and is
there to be potentially picked up by people who donít even
listen to the radio interview. It touches them on a vibrational
level, and, you know...
KC: I think thatís right. Youíre talking about The Butterfly
Effect, in essence.
DI: Yeah, it...
KC: It multiples. Thatís actually a very good way to put it. You
know, on a subliminal level... because we exist on so many
DI: Mm hm. Exactly.
KC: Itís like waves. Itís actually... itís hitting them. And
thereís the line that Iíve been quoting lately that says, you
know: We learn by osmosis just as much as by word. It actually
permeates just by osmosis.
KC: Into our skin. Into our brain.
KC: Weíre receivers.
DI: Exactly. Weíre receiver / transmitters. Thatís what we are.
But people think that the only form of communication is
Iíll tell you a funny story. In 2003 I was in the rain forest of
Brazil and I took this ayahuasca psychoactive drug. Somebody
didnít tell me I was taking a psychoactive drug, but Iím glad I
did, though. It was fantastic. A lot of people have bad
This female voice talked to me as loud as mine is now for five
hours about how reality, physical reality, is an illusion.
Absolutely riveting stuff. Very, very funny. I mean, my feet
were the air a couple of times, it was so funny what was coming
And as the voice was telling me things, I saw pictures that
obviously were being projected. There was one where I walked out
on a stage and there was an audience. I just saw the front of
the audience here and this voice said: You only speak words to
keep the mind happy, basically to keep
the brain happy.
And as this voice was saying this, I saw two women in the front
row of this scene that had been projected to me, and Iíd walked
out to the front of the stage and Iíd just stood there, and just
said nothing Ė Silence. And after a while this one woman nudges
the other one like that and goes, basically: Whatís he doing?
And the voice... it was so funny what it said because it came
out of nowhere. The voice said; You only speak because if you
did not, the audience would be asking when the f??? is he going
to start? [laughs]
That actually carries a profound kind of understanding, because
the real communication between all of us is unspoken.
DI: And this is very good news. And this is what I would impress
upon people. The more you speak your truth - even if people are
not listening - youíre changing, or offering, a vibrational
field which other people can tune into.
You know, when I look at the speed at which people are
awakening, itís not just because of information on the Internet.
Itís not just because of information in my books or someone
There is something massive going on, vibrationally, which fits
totally with what I got through that psychic in 1990, which was:
There is a spiritual revolution coming and itís taking the form
of a vibrational change.
I can see it. In 1990 - no evidence. Now? I mean, please. You
can see it. I had people come up to me in LA when I spoke there
recently, saying: I was absolutely a part of the system until
three months ago.
DI: I read one of your books and suddenly Iím just totally
Now, itís not just because they read one of my books. If you
start tuning in to this vibrational change, then bang! Things
can happen real, real quick. And, personally, I find it such a
good thing that, from my experience, I went through all that...
that nightmare experience in the early 1990s when I started to
awake, not knowing what the hell was happening.
Because now you can explain to people that if you have an
energetic construct here - which was you believing everything
was real, and the system was serving you, and this is the
cutting edge of human evolution, and all this nonsense - that
vibrational field is vibrating your state of being out[ward],
and it will draw to you people, places, ways of life,
experiences, etcetera, locations, which fit your inner self
because the outer self is a projection of the inner self.
So when you start to transform - this is what happened to me,
but I mean it happens to everybody - to another state of being
which then draws to you a very different group of people,
places, locations, ways of life, etcetera, there is a transition
between the two. It doesnít go: One gone! íEre you go! [Kerry
This one has to break down as this one emerges. Itís a process
of one losing power over your reality, another one gaining
power. It can happen very quickly, but itís not like instant.
KC: Thatís actually a very great metaphor for whatís going on in
the macrocosm of the planet.
KC: And in the United States in particular, but certainly
England. You know, all over. We can see it here. I mean, whatís
happening here with the economic downturn and with people losing
their houses, their shells, if you will. It changes their lives.
DI: I couldnít agree more.
KC: And the more you resist, I think, the more destruction is
going to happen. The less you resist, the quicker the
destructive phase is over and you can actually start climbing
KC: In your case, you were quite extraordinary in the sense that
you had this radical change in your life. You went, you know,
from black to white almost. There was almost no downtime for
you, it sounds like, although you said for three months...
DI: Three months was the big downtime.
KC: But thatís extraordinarily quick, especially in the í90s.
Today, I think this is happening to people and they are going
through a quicker transition. And in some ways thereís also a
reason for that, because you and people like you have made it
easier for those that are following now to go through the
DI: I hope so.
KC: Breaking through a veil.
DI: I hope so. I mean, I get such satisfaction when people say
that they were helped in understanding what was going on. And
youíre absolutely right. I mean, I talk about this a lot now
because between that - the old self and all that it projects in
what we call the physical experience, and the new self which
projects something else - there is apparent chaos.
Relationships breakdown, you lose your job, you can lose your
house, and all this stuff, and if you live that as a physical,
I-am-a-human-body experience, then itís very, very challenging.
If you say: Look, this is where I want to go, and you realize
that this is the transition to get there, then you can encompass
the unpleasant experiences as just that - an experience - which
youíre going through to get to somewhere. And quite right. The
Thereís so many levels to this, you know. People say to me
sometimes: Tell me whatís going on. I say: Well, first of all,
Iím not the guru, but if you want to know what I think is going
on, my question is: What level of whatís going on do you want to
talk about? Because thereís so many ways to observe the same
So on one level, these Illuminati bloodlines have crashed the
global economic system because they want to have that as a
problem to which they can offer a solution, which is a fiercely
Orwellian, Fascist, centralized economic system.
But on another level, I would suggest, well beyond their level
of comprehension - because theyíre stuck in their own box,
otherwise they wouldnít be doing what theyíre doing - we are
witnessing the transition from the Prison Society to the
Paradise Society, if you like, or the Freedom Society.
And to go from the system weíve had, which is based on control
and imposition, to the system that weíre heading towards - which
is what vibrational change is all about - this has gotta go and
itís now going.
DI: If people... And itís easy to say this. Itís easy to say
these apparently trite things when, you know, you got a knock on
your door saying youíre leaving your house today. But if we can
hold this level of seeing it, it makes it easier.
Weíre going through this process where itís all breaking down.
And if we can encompass it as what it is, which is a collective
experience to get to where weíd like to go - a world of
freedom, a world of kindness, a world of love, a world of
freedom to express your uniqueness rather than be imprisoned in
your tiny version and false identity of what you are told you
are - then itís much easier than if you seek to cling to the
wreckage of the dying system and hold it together.
KC: Right. In some ways, you were something of a pioneer, where
you had to go it alone.
BR: I imagine you must have much more support now from
everywhere, just in the way that Kerry is describing, than you
did when you really felt you were alone going down the rapids.
DI: Yes. Itís funny, though, because... I mean there are so many
things Iíd like to talk about that you just brought up, because
I think itís very, very important.
I wouldnít say Iím a loner, but my connection has always been to
that which is driving me and opening doors and pushing me in
this direction, and I just follow that. So, although I was alone
in so many ways when it all happened, I still had that
connection. And I still have that connection now.
And people are very kind and very supportive, but I still
basically just operate in my own little bubble and just go my
own way. I donít deal with organizations. I donít connect with
other researchers or anything like that. I just follow this
impulse. But it is easier because thereís more people that are
open to what youíre saying. But, you know, what youíve just
brought up is very, very important and...
You know, for me, if not the greatest human disease of all
because everything comes out of it, I guess, is insecurity.
Ironically it was at the height of mass national ridicule that I
found my security. Because thereís that line in that song, I
think it was in the í60s: Freedomís just another word for
nothing left to lose.
BR: And you have to look inside for your security. Youíre not
going to get it from anywhere else outside.
DI: Yeah. I mean, you look at my situation in regard to that
line from that song in the early í90s, early-mid-í90s, I was
being ridiculed by a nation, so I had nothing left to lose. And
thatís when I found freedom, the freedom to break out of the
prisons of fearing what other people think. And basically I was:
Laugh! Laugh, but this is me.
You know, I saw a great car sticker.
BR: I am me, and I am free.
DI: I saw a great car sticker in California - it would be
California - and it said: You laugh at me because Iím different.
I laugh at you because youíre all the same. [Kerry laughs]
I donít laugh at people because theyíre all the same, but it is
ironic when this herd mentality is kind of focusing on one
person, as it was in Britain at that time. And you look at them
and you think: Youíre laughing at me? My God! [laughs]
And so, this economic thing thatís going... and, you know, Iíve
been describing it recently as like a controlled demolition of a
building. You see the charges go off, and then thereís a bizarre
split-second before the building goes, and then it collapses.
Well, in the economic terms of this crash, we are in that
bizarre split-second now.
[Iíve been describing the economic situation weíre in recently
as like a controlled demolition, where you see the charges go
off and you know thereís a problem. But then thereís a bizarre
split-second before the building actually crashes. I would say
that we are in, and getting very, very closer to the edge of by
the day, that bizarre split-second.
Weíve seen nothing yet. I mean, this is a crash that no one
alive today will have seen. It could be compared with the 1930s,
but because of the way the world is, and thereís more people,
and the nature of home ownership and all the rest of it, I think
itís going to be bigger.
BR: So people with gardens and independent means of doing
anything at all will be much more interconnected.
DI: Thatís the idea. Youíre absolutely right. Absolutely. And so
we now face this very situation youíre talking about, where we
need to reevaluate our... and it would have been a good idea to
do it anyway...
KC: Yes. [laughs]
DI: ...our symbols of success.
DI: Now, because insecurity is rampant in people and society,
both individually and collectively, and on the level of
governments and media and all the rest of it, are constantly
getting people to feel insecure, most people do not get their
sense of who they are from in-here. They get it from what they
think is out-there. See? Itís in their heads.
DI: Therefore, if you are going to attract to you the
recognition you want that youíre an OK person, to feed your
insecurity, you have to succeed out-there on the basis of the
symbols of success that out-there recognizes as success. And of
course through the media and indoctrination from cradle to
grave, itís more money, bigger house, bigger car, fame, all this
stuff, titles, and all this business.
BR: He who dies with the most toys wins.
DI: Yeah. So what youíve got is, the insecurity itself is - to
kind of feed some acknowledgment to lessen its insecurity - itís
chasing these symbols of success that society has decided is
And we forget other symbols of success: Am I happy? Am I
fulfilled? You know. Do I live in a society, a kind, loving
society that Iíd like to live in?
All this goes by the board because the other thing about needing
to succeed on this manufactured basis, to feed this, is that you
then have to compete with all the other people that are trying
to succeed in the same way to feed their insecurity.
DI: And that creates this ďDog eat dog / Top of the greasy poleĒ
society, where everyoneís walking over everyone else - not
everyone, but vast numbers of people are walking over everyone
else so that theyíre the ones on the top of the pile that get
their insecurity fed most profoundly with the symbols of
This insecurity is why you find some of the most insecure people
youíll ever meet in places like Hollywood and in the
entertainment industry because their insecurity is such... And
theyíre not all like this. There are very secure people who just
play music and like to act, but thereís a lot of insecure people
because they need that extra adulation to feed their insecurity.
And so, if we can move our point of observation from I am this
body that I see in the mirror in the morning. I am David Icke. I
am Charlie Smith, Ethel Jones, whatever, to I am Consciousness
having an experience, then your values of what is successful
change because your point of observation of everything changes.
Itís the mind working through the body that deals in status and
symbols of success that are How high is your pile of trinkets?
Whereas, Consciousness doesnít deal in trinkets. It knows
theyíre illusory. And, of course, when you deal in trinkets like
that, itís the trinkets controlling you; youíre not controlling
the trinkets. [laughs]
BR: Of course.
DI: And so, for me, the whole foundation, both of coming through
this crash to something much better as the result of it, and the
whole transformation in general, is moving out of Mind and into
what I call Consciousness, which is that beyond this virtual
reality game, beyond this biological computer we call the body.
And you can start to see the difference because Mind deals in
structure. It deals in hierarchy, and it deals in apartness. It
sees everything as apart.
BR: And polarization.
DI: Yeah. And if thatís what you are, if thatís the way youíre
seeing life, in terms of hierarchal structures, apartness, and
competition, and all this stuff, youíre in Mind. Ironically, the
religions are in Mind. Theyíre all Mind constructs, the
religions. Thatís why they have rules and regulations.
BR: Of course.
DI: Thatís another massive red light. Hey! Mind! And thatís
rules and regulation and laws.
KC: And limitations.
DI: Limitation, a sense of limitation. So, if we can change our
point of observation so we cease to see ourselves vitally and
the world we think weíre living in, in those terms, and look at
it from a point of view of Consciousness...
I said earlier that this force thatís been kind of pushing me
through my last 20 years took me through synchronistic
experiences to understand the five-sense level of the
conspiracy, then moved into the
interdimensional connection and
reptilian connection to these families.
And since 2003 itís taken me into what I know is by far the most
important and that is understanding the nature of reality.
Because, you know, how can you get a grasp of your own life and
take any kind of control of your own experience, if you donít
know who you are, where you are, or the nature of the world
youíre living in?
This information, for me, is by far the most important because
it moves the point of experience from in-this-world to
observing-this-world, or a mixture of the two, and that...
If youíre in-this-world and youíre of-this-world, then whatís
coming is going to be a bloody nightmare. If you become the
observer as well as the experiencer by becoming more conscious,
then itís much easier. Because thatís not you, thatís your
experience which you are observing and...
KC: Absolutely. This is something that...
George Green says that
he was in contact with the Plejarans and that they helped write
a book through him that says that exact thing, that you need to
stay in the ďobserver modeĒ.
KC: And observe whatís going on and not get caught up in the
experience in such a way that actually, as you said, you become
of-this-world instead of in-it-but-not-of-it.
DI: Yeah. And what Iíve found, as Iím talking more and more
about the reality we live in, is it does, if you like, take the
edge off the fear of whatís happening.
Because it is funny, really. I think that when we find out
everything thatís going on and the nature of what weíre
experiencing and whatís behind it, I think weíre going to laugh
for weeks. I do. I think weíre going to laugh for weeks. And we
thought it was THAT? Oh, my God.
The whole thrust of the maze and opening and closing doors since
2003, for me, and itís getting more and more deep, and deeper
and deeper, is: What is reality? Who are we, what weíre doing
here? And how do we interact with it?
And itís very clear to me that this is a virtual reality
universe of enormous advancement compared with what we perceive
to be virtual reality simulations in this world. And, you know,
this is not just supposition. This is provable scientific fact.
BR: Yes. I mean itís so good that we think itís real. [laughs]
DI: Yeah. You know, the five senses just decode vibrational
information into electrical signals, send it to
the brain, and
the brain decodes it into this construct that we think is
outside-there but itís actually inside-us.
The only place this world exists, a so-called solid world, a
three dimensional world, is out-there, we think. But actually it
doesnít exist out-there. Out-there is just vibrational fields.
It exists in-here as we construct it. And even the brain is a
decoded construct, as well. Itís on an energetic level that we
do the decoding, really.
This is very, very important because what the manipulators do,
because theyíve hoarded this basic knowledge and passed it over
at the highest level of the secret society network and sucked it
out of public circulation.
KC: Thatís right.
DI: They know that if we look out-there for answers, believing
that there is an out-there, instead of an illusory projection
thatís going on in-here, then weíre never going to change
DI: Never! Weíre never going to change anything, And once you
go: Ah! Thereís no out-there, so whereís it coming from? Oh!
Itís coming from in-here, so this is where I have to change. Oh!
There you go!
Itís what I call - and this is what most people do because of
the suppression of this understanding - is they stand in the
movie theater and they shout at the screen because they donít
like the movie.
KC: Uh huh.
DI: And people say: Youíre crazy. Youíre never going to change the
movie shouting at the screen. Go find the projection room.
Change the reel if you donít like the movie!
And the projection is deep within us, you know. Some research I
saw recently says that only about 5% of behavior and decisions
that we make are with the conscious mind. I would actually say
thatís not true, personally. Iíd say 100% of what happens in
this three-dimensional realityís only in our head - actually is
The conscious mind is actually not the decision-maker at all.
Itís the observer and experiencer of it, and it literally is the
same principle as a movie projector which comes from within,
within what we call the subconscious, where all those patterns
of air which weíre being influenced by and are affecting our
projection and our reading of it. And it comes out of the
subconscious. By the time it hits the screen in-here,
symbolically on the movie theater, itís a done deal.
This is where the change has to take place - within us - to
change the projection which is our conscious mindís experience.
People are so caught in the conscious mind as thatís the only
I mean, you hear them talk about subconscious and all that
stuff, but really itís: I thought it. Well, how come experiments
have shown that the electrical changes and muscular changes to
make an action happen, happen a split-second before the
conscious mind has decided to do it?
Itís because theyíre playing it out. And so, this talk about We
must go within, this New Age ďmust go withinĒ - and thereís
much about the New Age I would challenge - but this basic theme
is absolutely right, I would say.
And what the whole conspiracyís trying to do is get us to look
out-there. Letís go and protest. Letís go and do this. Letís go
and do that. And you protest and you have a million people on
the streets of London protesting against war. And what happens?
The war goes on, and then they start another bugger.
BR: Itís just more dialectic.
DI: Yeah. We need to change the projection.
KC: This is actually something that weíve come around to, and
weíre aware that Consciousness is where the change has to
happen. And then Consciousness is also where you have to apply
the change in your vision of reality.
You canít actually just stop there. It actually has to permeate
everything. So it needs to be embodied in this body, but we have
to talk about whoís in control. So if Consciousness is in
control and I can use this to do, for example, what weíre doing
here, which can be used to further change, and push the change,
and help the change, then this is a good thing.
But itís not enough, in other words, just go to in like Buddha
and simply sit in your mind and do nothing. Because doing
nothing is also not the answer.
We actually came here with a purpose. A game is being played out
here and if you stay in the Consciousness and youíre able to
change your inner self and then mirror it outside, and
facilitate, which is what youíre doing, obviously. And obviously
you embody this in your life. And what weíve been doing with
Camelot is weíre also talking about... You canít actually
demonstrate in the streets and get real results because itís
really, you know, action / reaction. Itís really that.
DI: Exactly. I agree.
KC: But you can join minds and meditate. There are places for
action that are actually really proactive and can change the
world in a positive way. Itís a very interesting dilemma for
people that they have to actually embody the change that they
seek, and live it. You know, you cannot be a contradiction to
whatís inside. It doesnít work. There has to be a through-line.
DI: Well, I would put it this way. I would say that, as I
mentioned a few minutes ago, that this reality, this
holographic, illusory, physical construct which we put together
in our heads is like a holographic Internet, I call it. That is
100% a projection and by the time it hits the screen, itís a
done deal in our experience.
But a lot of people Iíve come across and heard, they do think
that if you just sit and meditate or just go within, then thatís
all you need to do. But this is a projection and itís a
projection from somewhere. So this projection is an open book of
the inner-us, individually and collectively. So what we play out
in this experience says everything about our state of being.
You can say Go within, and you can use it as an excuse to not go
without and you can go within and meditate. OK. So whatís
happening in the projection as the result of what youíre doing?
The only projection that youíre affecting is you sitting
cross-legged in the corner. What else is changing?
Yes of course you can change things vibrationally, to an extent,
but what is happening in the world is saying whatís happening in
us, and weíve kind of missed that connection. So, if weíre doing
nothing to make a contribution to the kind of world weíd like to
live in, in the physical world, then that says something about
the state of us within. But weíre not doing that.
DI: And I see so many excuses being made by people who have
become to a certain extent aware of some of whatís going on, so
that they can justify to themselves why theyíre doing nothing.
People say to me: You donít tell us what to do.
And I say: Well, actually, I talk about becoming conscious and
all that stuff. I think, you know, thatís a start. But, it ainít
for me to tell you what to do. And if you think that I have to
tell you what to do, then youíre not listening, because this is
about taking power back to the point where we project, rather
than looking out-here at a done deal.
BR: Thereís an active paradox here, isnít there? Because thatís
not the whole story. Otherwise youíd be sitting in the corner
smiling and not talking to us here, and not working as hard as
you do, and not talking to people to help the process of waking
them up so that they can then join you in this understanding,
which we share with you also.
Itís important, in a sense, to pretend that all this is real,
because this is the platform from which we can waken ourselves
up and rejoin Consciousness again. And so itís a paradox. It
goes on at both levels. What you say is true, and this all is an
illusion, and it all doesnít matter. But itís all important
enough for us to be talking about it.
KC: What I was saying is, in your presentation where youíre
talking about Consciousness and the Mind and the problems with
staying just in Mind... Thereís a lot of brilliant people out
there coming to brilliant conclusions. And yet they canít live
it. You see? The manifestation doesnít go anywhere.
DI: Yeah. It becomes an intellectual, academic kind of point of
observation rather than Consciousness, which is something that
The difference that I am now increasingly making is between Mind
and Consciousness. And I would go further and say that we talk
about ďmy mind, your mind, his mind, her mindĒ. I donít see it
like that. I talk about The Mind.
The Mind is a construct of the virtual reality universe which
allows us - Consciousness - to interconnect with this virtual
reality. Itís like a conduit. And thereís absolutely nothing
wrong with it whatsoever if it serves the experience of
Consciousness, and serves our ability to interact with this
virtual reality universe.
What has happened - and I would strongly suggest itís been
manipulated to happen, not least by these families and other
levels of manipulation - is we have been manipulated into a
false identity which is identifying who we are with Mind, which
operates directly through the body, and calls itself ďDavid IckeĒ,
ďEthel JonesĒ, ďCharlie Smith,Ē that looks in the mirror and
thinks thatís who it is.
Basically, you know, this is a biological computer. Itís not a
computer that just reacts to the way itís programmed to react to
data input. It has the ability to - they call them living
computers - biological computers. Theyíre trying to build them
now in different parts of the world. It has the ability to
assess information and make decisions on it. In other words, to
quite a large extent it has the ability to think.
What happens is, if we get caught in Mind and self-identity or
ďThat reflection in the mirror is meĒ, and not just my
experience, then Mind starts to govern our sense of reality. And
Mind is about division, apartness, hierarchy, rules,
regulations, laws, limitation.
And, you know, you can have someone in the New Age arena who
talks about spirituality, talks about other dimensions Ė which
are other virtual reality games, I would suggest - other levels,
but blatantly is stuck in Mind and the values of Mind.
I mean, I hear
New Age people talk about the
Brotherhood and the hierarchy of the angels, and stuff. Thatís
BR: Of course it is.
DI: Consciousness doesnít do hierarchy. It just is. All
possibility. All that is.
DI: And so, the same mind-construct, The Mind, can entrap a
New Ager as it entraps in another part of The Mind a Wall Street
BR: Yeah. It is just another religion. Itís another religion.
DI: Yeah! Thatís the thing, you know. I was talking to... on an
interview yesterday, and we got into some interesting areas. He
asked me about religion. Well, religion and the political party,
and the New Age, and all these things that we donít call
ďreligionsĒ Ė institutions - theyíre all the same construct.
DI: Because Consciousness just is. Consciousness doesnít think.
Consciousness knows. Thatís why Consciousness is silent when we
access it, because itís got nothing to work out.
The Mind is where the chatter comes from because itís constantly
trying to work things out. [makes chattering sounds] What about
yesterday? Whatíd she say about me? [more chattering sounds]
Silence - Consciousness. So, to hold you in Mind, and this
conspiracy is about holding the population in Mind because then
DI: ...because thatís their stadium Ė Mind. Theyíre stuck in
Mind. If they were conscious, they wouldnít do what theyíre
doing. To hold us in Mind, they have to sell us something to
rigidly believe in.
So, religions ... brilliant example of rigid belief. And what is
it? Once you rigidly believe something, you then call it a name.
What are you? You donít say: Iím Consciousness. How many people
say: Hello. Who are you? Iím Consciousness. Oh, so am I. Nice to
No-no. What we are is what we do: Iím a journalist. I work in a
factory. What are you? Iím a Hindu. Iím a Christian.
These are mind-constructs. These are mind-prisons that limit our
sense of self. So once you have a rigid belief, then you give it
Now, I have a simple philosophy about all this: If you can tell
me what you believe and give it a name, youíre in a prison.
Because everything just is. We all just are. Itís ďThe Force
with No NameĒ, I call it - Consciousness.
And so you create religion and then after the name, then comes
the rules and regulations - this is how the construct goes - of what you have to conform to if you are going to be allowed to
call yourself whatever name thatís been come up with. Youíre not
a Christian if you believe that. And all this stuff.
Then you look at political parties. You have a group of people.
They get together and they want to do something politically. So
they give what theyíre doing a name: Democrats, Republicans,
Labor Party, Conservative Party, whatever. So thereís the name.
Now come the rules and regulations that decide if you can call
yourself one or the other. You canít believe that and be a
Conservative. You canít believe that and be a Liberal. Itís the
same construct, wherever you look.
DI: And then the belief system... As research has shown, rigid
beliefs, the neurons fire off in a certain network and sequence,
in line with the belief, because what the brainís doing is then
filtering, decoding reality and circumstance through the belief
system, which manifests in the brain as the way the neurons fire
And suddenly, instead of being free-thinking, or even better,
free-knowing - conscious - you are operating in a tiny little
box. And that box is basically the way your... Not basically. It
is the way your brain decodes reality.
So once youíre into belief, a rigid belief, then they gotcha.
And thatís why they want to sell you rigid beliefs.
BR: Thereís an active paradox here, isnít there? Because thatís
not the whole story. Otherwise, youíd be sitting in the corner
smiling and not talking to us here, and not working as hard as
you do, and not talking to people to help the process of waking
them up so that they can then join you in this understanding,
which we share with you also.
Itís important, in a sense, to pretend that all this is real
because this is the platform from which we can waken ourselves
up and rejoin consciousness again. And so, itís a paradox. It
goes on at both levels. What you say is true, and this all is an
illusion, and it all doesnít matter. BUT itís all important
enough for us to be talking about it.
DI: It matches, Bill, in the sense that... Do we want to
experience a reality thatís very, very unpleasant, and
controlling, and limiting, and frightening, and stressful?
Or do we want to experience a reality that is loving, kind;
where no-one goes hungry in a world of plenty; where there is no
war because no-one would even consider the idea that it was a
possibility or an option?
Thatís the choice weíre making. Weíre always Consciousness, and
when we leave the body weíll become at least much more aware of
everything than we are now.
So weíre always conscious. Weíre all eternal Consciousness. But
the question is: What kind of experience do we want here?
DI: You know, thatís the choice.
KC: We call it, What kind of game do you want to play?
KC: We have a chance now, because we are Consciousness, to
change the rules of the game, to make it something different
than it is. Change inside, but letís also agree, because thatís
whatís happening. Thatís what a Consciousness revolution has to
Itís not good enough for you, David Icke, to have got it. Itís
not good enough for us to have got it. What we need is for
everyone to get it, to tune this game here on this plane,
because thatís what itís really about.
In other words, Consciousness... and this is where it gets into
What is Consciousness? Itís love. And what is love? Itís
actually the awareness of all of us.
DI: Hmm. Well, I would say everything is Consciousness. Mind is
Consciousness, but itís a much denser expression of
Consciousness, and thatís why it sees everything in terms of
And as people become conscious, it can - to use the term of a
friend of mine in South Africa - Consciousness can
ďconscientizeĒ Mind and bring its awareness out of the level
that it currently perceives reality.
But I do think itís important that, if weíre going to play this
game successfully, that we understand where the gameís being
played. Itís not being played out-there.
See, what the five senses are doing, like I said earlier, is
that theyíre decoding vibrational information, turning it into
then constructs this apparent
reality out-there, which actually is only in-here.
So the prime reality is vibrational. Thatís the prime reality.
Thatís where the change has to take place, because as the change
takes place there, the five senses decode different vibrational
states into electrical signals.
BR: Thereís that wonderful story told by Michael Talbot in The
BR: And I read that page over and over again when I first saw
that book in the late 1980s. This is the story about the stage
hypnotist who hypnotized the father to believe that his daughter
was invisible. And then he was able to read an inscription on
the watch held behind her body, because for him she was no
longer there, and reality had changed. It was physically
different in his mind.
DI: Well, this is the whole point, you see. For a hypnotist to
put a watch behind someoneís back and someone the other side of
it read it, thatís perceived to be impossible. But itís only
impossible if you believe this world to be solid and real and
The reason it could happen is because the prime reality - and I
canít emphasize this more - the prime reality that is playing
out here is vibrational. That has to change or this canít
And so, if the hypnotist, as he did, implanted the program into
the guyís brain not to decode the vibrational level, the prime
level, of his daughter through this system into a holographic,
so-called physical form that we see, then he would decode all
the other vibrational fields in the room into people and walls
But because itís like a computer being fire-walled off, he
doesnít decode the daughterís prime state - your prime state,
our prime state, the prime state of everything, this vibrational
level - into the holographic, apparently out-there reality.
And so she doesnít exist in his head as a holographic form, i.e,
supposedly physical, so he canít see her. Because sheís not
there, he can see whatís behind her. Therefore he can read a
watch even though sheís standing there to everyone else in the
room. They can see her. Why? Because their brain has not been
programmed not to read that energy field into a holographic
Now, just as a quick aside, how many things, collectively, are
we not reading that are there to be read?
KC: Well, one of the things is thereís more than five senses.
OK? And the heart is... Itís not just the mind. Itís actually
the heart. Itís really the heart and the intelligence of the
heart that you can see through if weíd only use that. So itís
In other words, these are tools for us. Our mind is a tool. Our
heart is a tool. But you canít stay up here. [gesturing to head]
Youíve actually gotta go through the heart to really see. See,
we donít see with our eyes. Thatís actually... thatís a
construct. Thatís a mental construct.
DI: Yeah. We see with our brain.
KC: We actually see with our heart more than anything else and
through the heart. And so what happens is, itís a union between
the mind and the heart...
DI: I agree.
KC: ... that allows you to see. And you could put yourself in
that manís position and say: How could the man see through the
implant that was put into his brain?
First of all, what did he do? He had to accept the magicianís,
you know, implant, to begin with. So in the same way, we in
society are accepting the implant, whether itís television or
whatever, which is blocking our real view of reality. Weíre
DI: Yeah. I mean, the thing is though, that what the hypnotist
was doing was just programming the decoding mechanism.
DI: And therefore he didnít decode a vibrational field, i.e.,
his daughter, into a holographic form. Therefore he didnít see
And I completely agree that the heart has the potential to be a
massive part of our reality-decoding, our reality-expression.
But we also have to appreciate that this conspiracy... While we
George Bushes of the world and the
Barack Obamas and
people like that, the Kissingers, the real level of this
conspiracy, where the world is being controlled, is on a
Thatís why I talk about these reptilians that are doing this and
others, too, operating outside this reality. They operate on a
level of the vibrational level. Thatís where the manipulationís
DI: And we need to be, you know, kind to ourselves as well, in
understanding the challenges that we face, and not least trying
to understand a world that is being manipulated into a state, or
has been manipulated into a state, which has just stopped us
understanding the world.
And so, you know, we look at television and the manipulation of
television and newspapers and stuff, but when we see a newspaper
or we see a television program, weíre just seeing the decoded
version of a vibrational field.
Those newspapers and those television programs and news
programs, all the rest of it, they are actually ďphysical
holographic representationsĒ of the prime reality, which is a
BR: Yeah. Yes.
DI: Itís at that level that that manipulation we call
ďsubliminalĒ, that manipulation we call ďlying to the people,Ē
and all the rest of it, actually happens.
And so basically what theyíve done is pull a vibrational veil
over us. If you can make it powerful enough and dense enough,
you focus peoplesí sense of perception into such a narrow area
that they disconnect from an awareness, and therefore a deep
effect in their perception of consciousness.
Youíre isolating their point of observation into Mind. And
thatís happening on a vibrational level which then plays out in
what we call the physical world.
DI: So whatís vital - and this is why this information is so
important - not just... Iíll tell you what Iíve found. Nothing
represents literally and symbolically the prison [more] than the
brain, which deals in apartness, language, hierarchy,
structure, and all this stuff.
And the information about the five-sense conspiracy, Iíve found,
one of its great values is that it operates in a left-brain
realm. When youíre explaining how this and that and the other is
connected to the same people, and they control that, and this is
what theyíre doing, and these are the techniques they use ...
thatís left-brain information.
KC: Oh yeah.
DI: And when people say: Oh, you shouldnít put out that
information. Itís negative. They donít understand that weíre
looking at a multi-level situation. Therefore we have to deal
with it on a multi-level basis. That means covering all bases,
not just sitting cross-legged on a mountain.
BR: Of course.
DI: Now, what Iíve found over the years is that once the left
brain... Because symbolically I see, you know, youíve got the
left brain, which is what Iím talking about. Youíve got the
right brain which is a much more out-there connection and sees
everything in unity, the creative urge.
Then youíve got the bridge, the corpus callosum, which ideally
should be sharing information so youíve got a balance. Youíre in
this world and of it. You know.
But what the conspiracy does - again itís all on a vibrational
level that it goes in, and then it plays out here - is they
put, symbolically, soldiers on the door to the left brain.
This is why, to progress within this society, one of the most
effective ways is to keep passing exams, and passing exams, and
getting degrees, and all this stuff, because thatís... An exam
is: Hereís some left-brain information, now give it me back on a
paper telling me what Iíve told you to believe. OK. Youíve done
it very well. Youíve got a first-class degree. A first-class
Now, what this conspiracy information, on a five-sense level
does, it talks to the left brain in the language the left brain
understands. And Iíve seen it over the time in my personal
experience, and of course other people would have seen it, it
starts to make the left brain change its sense of reality.
Once it starts to change that, it starts to think: Well, hold on
a second. If everything I thought about the world here was
wrong, and itís not like that at all, what the heck else is in
this world is not like I thought it was?
Iíve seen this, where people, once that left brain starts this
process of withdrawing from a sense of ďIt knows whatís going
onĒ to ďI never knewĒ... then it starts to move. As it starts to
move, it literally starts to open to other possibility, and then
this movement between the hemispheres can start to happen.
Iíve seen people who would have laughed in my face about reality
and all that stuff, who now encompass it because they went
through the process of credible names, dates, places, five-sense
information, explaining logically why the world is not like they
thought it was on a five-sense level. Everything starts to move
So, you know, itís important that the de-programming of peoplesí
manipulated sense of reality happens on multi levels, not just
kind of, you know, ďWe must become spiritual, we must go
withinĒ, you know.
I mean, people say: Oh, Alex Jones, he just frightens people.
And all that. Well, hold on a second. You know, just hold on a
You know whatís negative? Itís not information. Itís ignorance.
Thatís whatís negative - ignorance. And if you want to be
ignorant, and therefore a manipulatorís party trick, then you go
And if you want to look at the information, the five-sense
information that I put out, and Alex puts out, and people like
that and many others, and say: Itís negative. Itís
Well, the fact that you find it frightening instead of
empowering because you now understand the game better and
therefore you have more power to do something about it, then
that is not a statement about those putting the information out.
Itís a statement about the way youíre receiving it.
BR: Exactly. Something that we like very much was something that
George Green said to us in our interview with us April of last
year. He used this little analogy.
He said: Listen, if your car is on the railroad track, and
thereís a train coming down, and you donít know that, and I
donít tell you, then itís shame on me for not telling you and
shame on you for not knowing. And this is just a nice little way
of encapsulating what youíre saying.
DI: Yeah. I have an analogy I use, very similar to that. I talk
about the - not the hurricane coming... What do you call them?
BR: The tornadoes.
DI: The tornadoes. Yeah. And the tornadoís coming but you have
put your head in a bucket of sand because you donít want to face
the fact that the tornadoís coming. Now, you can hide from that
for a while, but youíre still there and the tornadoís still
coming. And your bum is still in the air, and itís going to get
smacked very shortly by a tornado.
If you lift your head from the sand, face the situation that
youíre in - thereís a tornado coming - now you have taken
power back to yourself by saying: OK. I see the situation now. I
can take avoiding action, for my benefit.
BR: Of course.
DI: And this is why itís so important... You know, I hear people
who you might New Age, who talk about ďletting go of fearĒ and
ďtaking your power back,Ē and ďCome to this workshop and weíll
show you how to do it.Ē
And then they say: Oh, you mustnít talk about this conspiracy.
Itís too negative. What happened to letting go of fear and all
this stuff, you know?
BR: These are the guys who heard that the Angel Gabriel is going
to come and save us, you know? That doesnít work either.
DI: Every level ... it seems to me every belief system, every
mind construct, seems to have a version of the cavalry coming
over the horizon, you know: OK. Hereís the cavalry. OK? Hereís
the cavalry. Hereís the cavalry. Thereís the cavalry.
And we need to understand that, you know, because if we give our
power away to other people, where do those other people
actually... Where do they actually stand, physically, as we give
our power away to them?
Out-there, symbolically. So what weíre doing is giving the power
away into the illusion and then wondering why nothing ever
The whole conspiracy, or the foundation of the conspiracy, is to
persuade 6 billion people to give their power away every day.
And the power used to control us is the power of these people
saying: Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very
Take it back, house of cards comes down, because thatís what it
is. Itís a house of cards, and weíre holding it together
in-here. Weíre constructing the house of cards in-here. Great
news... we can bring it down in-here.
KC: Right. But I have to say that weíre not only going to do that
with the Mind. Thatís whatís really important here.
BR: No, the Mind plays it out. We going to do it by becoming
conscious. Thatís the point.
KC: Absolutely, but also left brain / right brain. I want to
address that a little bit.
KC: Because itís not enough to reconstruct reality based on
things getting to a place where you donít know, and then youíre
willing to open to a new construction of reality such that
youíre going to play the game different, but youíre still lodged
in the left brain.
You must bring in the holistic view, the view that encompasses
the heart, that encompasses the female, which is the yin-yang
side of things, because what we have here, has been playing out
for centuries, is a really yang view of reality, especially on
the Western side of the world.
DI: Well kind of. Iíd say it slightly differently.
KC: So what I have to say is, itís more than just reconstructing
the left brain in a new way to play the game better, because
thatís actually cheating yourself on another level.
You need to grow and open the door between the left and the
right brain, such that there is a flow. And that means that
youíre talking about the heart. Youíre talking about senses that
are beyond the five. And so you have to...
What you had to do in your own exploration was... you never
would have gotten the information you wanted to get by staying
in the left brain. As you said, you had physical sensations.
They locked your feet. They gave you information that came out
of nowhere. You couldnít make logical sense of it. Logic was out
the window. So left brainís gone, you know. Itís even worse, or
useless, when you get into that place.
DI: I agree.
KC: So you must actually... Itís like traveling, in a sense. You
must actually travel to a different place. What you do [meaning
David] is, you follow your intuition.
KC: Youíre over on your, I guess they call it the right side of
the brain. Thatís where you are. Thatís where intuition resides,
so youíve opened that door. There is a flow. And thatís really
what has to happen.
DI: Well, yeah. I mean, I take my intuition, which has guided me
and has lead me to information. Also itís like a filter. I have
a vibrational sensation when something is not true and something
is true, and another one when itís maybe partly true.
KC: Thatís holistic.
DI: Yeah. The left brainís still important in bringing those
concepts down into a language of communication that people can
assimilate that are stuck in the left brain. Because if you
donít talk in logical - from their perspective, logical terms
that the left brain can understand, which is under lock and key
- then that key will never open.
And that is also why what youíve just said, that you will...
Except on rare occasions when Iím talking in a very small
time-scale or doing an interview on a specific subject, I will
never talk about the five-sense conspiracy without the nature of
reality, and the influence of Consciousness, and all the rest of
Another point you make is about the heart. I agree. The heart is
absolutely at the heart of this and is much more powerful than
the brain and much more powerful than The Mind because it is
connected. I would say thatís what connects us through the
And this conspiracy also... Because, you know, itís a simple
thing. In the deep shadows behind the people in dark suits is a
force, whatever you want to call it, that understands how this
DI: So theyíve structured a society that is to close down all
the channels to Consciousness, to isolate us in Mind because
then weíre playing in their stadium. And one of the key things
they use is to close the heart. To close the heart.
And if you want to open the heart and you want to become
conscious - itís what I say in my talks - then what we need to
do is to ask the question: What would Consciousness do at this
Would Consciousness, when weíre faced with this set of
circumstances say: Well, whatís the best outcome for me? No.
Consciousness would say: What is the right, just, fair thing in
this situation for me to do?
And if we, when weíre faced with choices all through the day,
ask that question: In this circumstance, what would
Consciousness do? And act upon it Ė crucially - then everything
changes. And our life changes.
Why? Because we are now starting to resonate with
because weíre operating in its realm, which is... By doing what
we say Consciousness would do in these circumstances, we are vibrationally locking in to that level and therefore becoming
more and more influenced by Consciousness.
When we say: Well, yeah, I see that, but itís not good for me if
I do whatís right in this situation. I must do whatís right for
me. Thatís Mind, so thatís locking you into Mind.
You know, this thing about becoming conscious... I see it so
often all over the world. I mean, I was in India just before
Christmas. And, you know, good luck to them, but they make it
sound so complicated.
And you know, a lot of the complication, I see this with New Age
people that stand on stages and do workshops, not all of them of
course. I see it with gurus in India and stuff like that. Not
all of them, again, but vast numbers of them.
The complexity says two things: One, they donít really
understand it, because if you really understand something, you
can put it in simple language.
BR: Iíd agree with that.
DI: This is why you get academia repeating jargon. And you say:
Look, Iím an idiot, mate. OK? Iíve never passed an exam in me
life. I left school at 15 to be professional soccer player.
Youíre going to have to put it in language I can understand. They
canít because they donít really understand it. Theyíre just
And the other side of the complexity of becoming conscious is,
if you can make it sound complex, then youíve taken power over
your potential audience. Thatís a big thing.
KC: Absolutely. Itís still a power game.
DI: You have to come through me. And the more I make it sound
complex, the more power I have, and therefore the more you must
come to me, and the longer you must stay with me. And, by the
way, put the check in the box as you leave. [Kerry laughs]
And yet it is so simple. This is the point I would make. People
talk about ďWe must become consciousĒ. Itís a lie.
We are conscious. That is our natural state. Whatís happened is,
barriers that we have been manipulated - and weíve, you know,
must take responsibility for it too, big time - are put in
place, have symbolically created a concrete shell around our
natural state. And in this concrete shell are all the things
that control people - fear and stress, and conflict, and
seeking success, and competition, and all this stuff.
Itís not that we have to become conscious. We are conscious.
Itís breaking that shell. And that shell is Mind domination. If
we can break that shell, we become conscious.
BR: Itís like the lie thatís in language when people say: My
spirit, My soul, and Iím hungry. Itís like, wait a minute, this
is the wrong way around here. You know: I have a body and my
body is hungry. My body is tired. And I am a soul and I am a
That language, which is a product of The Mind in the first
place, because we donít think how... We donít talk how we think.
We think how we talk. And language is one of the ways in which
DI: A massive, massive way.
BR: As George Orwell pointed out in 1984.
DI: Programming the computer. But what are words? Theyíre
vibrational fields. So, again, even the words... The programmers
are actually coming in at a vibrational level, a waveform level,
and theyíre only decoded into language when they pass though the
BR: Thatís true.
DI: So everything gets in, that plays out-here, gets in at
vibrational level. Thatís why we need to get to that level of
ourselves and clear ourselves out because thatís where all the
patterns are put in.
And I use this analogy in my talks, that, you know, a ball, its
natural place in a tank of water is on the top, just floating
away. Itís a natural state. Free. Going like...
If you want to put the ball in an unnatural state in the tank,
youíve got to put in on the bottom of the tank and youíve got to
hold it there. You canít put it there and itíll stay there
because itís not its natural state. Its natural state is
floating on the top. Our natural state is being conscious.
So what their manipulation has had to do is - and this says
something about the true scale of who we are - it has had to
bombard us with so many multi-level systems of control,
diversion, and manufactured ignorance, to symbolically hold the
ball on the bottom. And it hasnít succeeded.
KC: Actually, theyíre mounting, these systems of control. Thatís
what the move towards a Fascist state and a world government is
I actually heard an interview with you in which you talked about
that fact. You see, the fact that we are - to use your analogy,
which is a very good one - we are Consciousness and as that ball
we are moving as a group towards the surface of the water. Weíre
actually getting out of their grasp.
KC: As that happens, theyíre intensifying their game to want to
keep that ball down and so thatís why the stakes are rising on
DI: Couldnít agree more.
KC: And whatís going to happen is... Look at the natural, I
mean, even the metaphor is perfect because whatís going to
happen ultimately, the water and the ball are going to win. OK?
Thereís no way that those forces... As much as they intensify,
sometime, somewhere that ball is going to get to the surface,
like it or not, The Powers That Be.
KC: Now, whatís going to be interesting is if they actually
start understanding on a deeper level than power and their
power-over because ďIíve got the clueĒ and ďIíve got the keyĒ.
Thatís what the Illuminati, you know, thatís what they think.
They think: If you donít get it, then we can hold you down. You
deserve to be held down. Thatís actually their... Iím sure you
know this. This is their rationale.
So what happens when we, because weíre greater than our
bodies... the Consciousness that we are is greater than what
they are because theyíre on limitation, start to win in their
own mind? You see? And they start to let go.
Because this is whatís probably happening. There have to be many
members that have been under the thumb of this game and have
joined and are being, you know, will be patted on the head and
given all the reinforcement necessary to keep them in the game.
What happens when they start to see the light, so to speak?
DI: And some of them, Iím sure, already are, because thereís
nothing more fiercely compartmentalized than this whole control
Thereís so many people within the control structure, right down
into mainstream society, that are daily contributing to this
gathering Fascist global state, who have no idea of the true
implications of it. Or, as they go up higher and higher, have
been mislead about the nature of themselves, reality, and the
force behind it.
KC: So the nature of the chaos and the destruction will actually
work in the favor of releasing the ball because what happens is,
during chaos you can change sides, you see. You can actually,
you know... Itís really hard to maintain control during a time
DI: Yeah. I agree. What I would say is that the ball will get to
the top of the water when the ball realizes that it is the
water. [Kerry laughs]
And the scale of the movement and the speed of movement of this
conspiracy now as it puts in more and more surveillance, more
and more control, more and more centralization of power,
etcetera...Iíve been saying for years now that is not about even
gathering more power. It is about defending the control thatís
already there. Because they understand.
I mean, if I can go to a psychic in England in 1990 to be told
through this psychic that this vibrational change was coming,
was going to create a spiritual revolution... I mean, are the
Illuminati families not going to know that this spiritual
change, this vibrational alarm clock is coming? Of course they
are and theyíve known about it for a long time.
And so, what weíre looking at is a... I mean, when you lose the
power - from ďWeíre in control and weíre going to get more
powerĒ to ďWe must impose more and more control to stop this
happeningĒ - theyíre not in a, if you like, a pro-active
situation now as they push this Orwellian state on.
Theyíre in a defensive situation, trying to keep the lid on
human ignorance as this vibrational change brings it to the
DI: And, you know, compared with Consciousness, this
Illuminati... I mean, theyíre flies on an elephantís back, you
know, and theyíre going to get removed.
I think itís not about winning the game, and itís not about
losing the game. Itís about realizing the nature of the game,
and the fact that itís not about winning and losing, itís just
And as these pyramids of control, certainly the lower levels
first, start getting picked off by this vibrational change, and
people start to see things differently, you know...
As Iíve been saying for 20 years, look at a pyramid. The
capstoneís the place of the power. No itís not. The capstoneís
up there because the rest of the pyramidís holding the bugger up
there. The rest of the pyramid moves away, whereís the capstone
going to go? Itís going to crash to the floor. Thereís nothing holding
it up. We are holding up the structure that is our own control
I used to tell a story years ago. Youíll remember, Bill; Larry
Grayson, a comedian in the UK. Right?
DI: I knew Larry towards the end of his life. He used to do big
shows on the BBC and I was invited to his memorial service at
Covent Garden after he died.
Thereís another comedian in Britain called Roy Hudd, and he did
this presentation about Larryís life. He told this story, and I
sat there and I felt: Whoooo, that is so profound when applied
to what weíre talking about.
Roy Hudd said that Larry Grayson had told him this story, that
in the days of music hall-type theater or the last vestiges of
it, Larry was in an all-male show going around Britain. And he
was the woman in it, because he used to dress up as a woman,
The final scene of the show, or the final part of the show, was
all the men ran on the stage dressed as sailors, singing Rule
Britannia. You know, [sings] Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the
waves, and all that stuff. You know, Britain has to rule
Anyway, so as this songís reaching its climax, all these sailors
climb on each otherís backs and form a pyramid on the stage.
Right? And then Larry Grayson came on dressed as Britannia, with
the gown and the helmet and the sword, and was manhandled up to
the top of the pyramid of these men, you know, the big finish
with the sword.
And he said, one night things seemed to be going rather well, he
said, until one of the sailors in the bottom left-hand corner
got a cough. Right? And the cough got worse and worse and worse
until he couldnít hold his place in the pyramid anymore. And
heís standing on the stage at the bottom of the pyramid, this
guy. You know. Ethel Jones and Charlie Smith.
And in the end he couldnít hold it anymore because the cough got
too bad, and he had to step out of the pyramid. What happened
was, Larry Grayson at the top, symbolic of this Illuminati,
ended up in the second row [Bill laughs] because the whole
pyramid collapsed because one little guy on the left-hand bottom
corner got a cough.
BR: Yes. Lovely.
DI: You know, pyramid power, in one way, is all roads from the
base of the pyramid lead up to the point of the pyramid, and
thatís how they control.
BR: The thing that I would like to connect up with here... Itís
so interesting what youíre saying and we passionately agree with
your thesis here. And one of the things which I love about your
work is that itís like, in order to control, rather, one good
way to control somebody is to lie to them. And therefore, if
youíre being lied to, and someone is trying to control you,
these things are intimately connected.
BR: And we are being convinced that this reality is all that
there is, that these are just animated hunks of meat that last
three score years and ten, and then thatís our lot. And then
either weíre pushing up daisies or we go to heaven or go to
hell, which is another trap and another lie.
BR: And meanwhile thereís some fascinating things going on
behind the scenes. And, as you must have known from your own
research and your own contacts and your own conversations that
youíve got a magical component to the controllers - meant in
the real definition of the word magic - black magic ceremonies,
rituals, sacrifices, all kinds of things that you and I donít
want to know about. But actually this is part of the truth of
the matter. This is what they do. They evoke djinns. They do
DI: Yeah. I was getting an enormous amount of stuff about that
in the late í90s.
BR: And itís not pleasant to look at, and itís real. And then
thereís another aspect to this, which is something thatís been
coming at us quite a lot from Black Projects insiders, which is
not the black magic, but the black technology, which was well
stated by Richard Hoagland, who told us that heíd had a phone
call from an insider who said that ďThey would rather lose an
American city than give up their new physicsĒ.
And this new physics... We were told by somebody who we met in
Thailand in October; weíve given him the pseudonym of Jake
Simpson. We know the guy very well. He said that the state of
black physics at the moment is... When I say black physics, itís
like secret physics, as in Black Operations.
BR: Those guys are not all evil people, but theyíre on the
inside and theyíre playing these games with all the resources
and all the knowledge that is denied the public domain.
BR: [Black physics is] ten thousand years ahead of public sector
physics, they say, accelerating away from public sector
knowledge at the rate of 1000 years a year. I checked those
figures with him. Thatís a lot of zeroes. Ten thousand years
ahead! And he told us, for instance, that the technology exists
to phase-shift soldiers, Special Forces soldiers, so that they
can walk through walls.
DI: Iíve heard that, a few years ago.
BR: Youíve heard that?
BR: Thatís... Yeah. Itís an interesting corroboration. These
little stories pop up here and there in different researchers.
DI: I think the thing is, Bill, that the reason for the fast
acceleration is thereís a critical point where you understand
reality, and from that point the potential just absolutely
soars. Whereas, because of the suppression of science in the
public arena, theyíre nowhere near, yet, that line where the
So in the secret projects theyíve crossed that line and
therefore theyíre accelerating away, at the rate you talk about,
from mainstream scientific understanding.
BR: Thatís exactly right.
KC: And thereís other dimensional intelligences who have gotten
to that point.
DI: Absolutely right.
KC: Itís really a key. And ETs - negative, you know,
service-to-self ETs, basically - that theyíre working with, and
certainly becoming aware of the veil behind the veil.
Because you can talk about Consciousness and Mind as we have
here, but if you want to lay out, you know, if you want to
understand whatís really going on, you do have to talk about ETs
and you have to talk about interdimensional entities and also...
KC: ...entities that donít have physical bodies.
DI: Sure. Thatís what I was saying earlier. Weíve got to do this
on all levels because itís operating on all levels.
BR: The best presentation which I heard of the answer to one of
the most important questions - and I canít remember whether it
was yourself or Jordan Maxwell, or perhaps both, who said:
How could humans do the things that they do to other humans on
this planet, as they seem to really be doing? How could we be
trashing this planet, our home, in the way that we are, at the
behest of the controllers? How could humans be doing this?
And the answer is that actually theyíre not human at the highest
level. Is this something that you said, or was that Jordan
DI: Thatís the thing that Iíve been talking about for a while
because, you know, this reality... We keeping talking about
different levels. This reality obviously operates on different
levels. Youíve got the wave vibrational level. Youíve got the
electromagnetic level. Youíve got the visible light level. And
youíve got the digital level.
And when you talk about the level of advancement and potential
that you mentioned earlier, it is a cinch to... if you look at
where the development of Artificial Intelligence is moving now
within this Stone Age level of awareness, imagine what is
possible at the cutting edge of the secret projects, and even
beyond that, in the realms of the non-human levels of this.
They have, without question, the ability to create Artificial
Intelligence that looks to our... in the decoded world, because
Iím decoding you now. What you are is a vibrational field.
So if you can create a vibrational field with Artificial
Intelligence that is vibrating externally in the same form,
range, that a human body is, this... Basically itís a biological
computer human body, but whatís animating it is different to
what animates ours. Then Iím going to decode you or Iím going to
decode this Artificial Intelligence, just like the lady in the
red dress in
The Matrix movie.
DI: And sheís going to look just like you and me. I remember
being in that ayahuasca state in 2003 and that female voice said
to me: If you programmed a computer to abuse a child, would the
computer have any emotional consequence for that, any emotional
reaction? None. It would just do what itís programmed to do.
And one of the most blatant things about these Illuminati
bloodlines is they have no empathy. They have no ability to
empathize with the consequences for others of their actions.
Thatís why there are no limits. You know, pepper-bombing
Baghdad. To us, horrific. Terrific emotional consequence. To
them, nothing. Just like a computer.
And they are like computers. And to a large extent, thatís why
some of them are so bright, you know. My computer on my desk can
work things out quicker than I can in some areas, where itís
just, you know, working out to a program. It has no wisdom. It
has no empathy. It has no heart or Consciousness, but on a
mental level it can work very quickly.
And these people are very sharp mentally. Thereís no doubt about
it. Some of these people are very sharp mentally. But they have
no heart, no balancing qualities of Consciousness.
Iím convinced theyíre Artificial Intelligence. When I look at
someone like Kissinger, I mean, I see an Artificial Intelligence
that has been created by a very, very advanced knowledge and it
looks just like you and me because thatís the way we decode it,
And you know, again, Bill, when you were talking about their
rituals and what have you, what are the rituals doing? Itís all
about creating a vibrational field. Theyíre creating an
energetic environment that allows these interdimensional
entities to move into this dimension, at least briefly. And what
theyíre also doing is accessing through these rituals the
vibrational level of reality, which is the prime level of
reality, which we decode into this.
So, what theyíre doing on one level with these rituals - which
they often do at vortex points, which are very powerful in
affecting the vibrational state of the planet. The communication
lines, like meridian lines that we have in the body, the planet
If they do a ritual where a lot of these lines meet, then the
vibrational effect of that ritual is going out down these lines
and theyíre affecting us because weíre being affected by that
vibrational level, that prime level. So Iíve no doubt at all
theyíve got technology, too, that is creating disharmony within
the vibrational level of this reality, which then will create
disharmony here, you know?
And the thing is though... I remember that scene in The Matrix -
because people read things in different ways. I read Neoís
journey as becoming conscious. I think thatís probably what they
meant, but thatís the way I read it, very powerfully.
There was a point where heís in a simulation with the Morpheus
character, and Morpheus is explaining about the Agents. Now, for
Agents read people that youíre talking about that have the
ability to do incredible things within this reality ícause they
understand how it works and they keep it from the people.
DI: And people whoíve watched The Matrix will remember the scene
because the Agent, Agent Smith, is in freeze-frame in this
thing, with a gun. And the Morpheus character says to Neo:
People have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but
air. But their strength and their speed is still based on a
world based on rules.
And because of that, they can never be as
fast or as strong as you can be.
DI: Because within this virtual reality, there are rules to the
game. Some of them are called laws of physics and such like.
Consciousness overcomes those laws, does not recognize them, is
not entrapped by them. So as we become conscious, we move beyond
the box that the controlling force is actually in.
During my talks I put two boxes. Oneís got, symbolically, a
reptilian on it. On a smaller one itís got humans on it. What
theyíve done, and the whole foundation of how itís been
possible... Because theyíre in a box. Otherwise, they wouldnít
be doing what theyíre doing.
DI: And if theyíre Artificial Intelligence, theyíre obviously in
a box with a lid on that doesnít open. But they manage to
control human society by putting humans in a smaller box than
Again we come back. Symbolic of the box, theyíre holding the
ball on the bottom of the tank. As we become conscious, we go
beyond their potential, and thatís what theyíre terrified of.
BR: Let me tell the story about Bill Birnes and Admiral
Hoover. I donít know if youíve heard this one, but weíd love to
tell this one on camera.
BR: Bill Birnes, Los Angeles-based editor of UFO Magazine,
talked to Admiral George Hoover from the Office of Naval
Intelligence before he died, when he was an elderly man. He had
one of these turn-around experiences when he was very old, and
he started to talk to Bill Birnes about what was really going
Bill Birnes wanted to know about things like the Roswell crash,
all of this stuff. And one of the things that George Hoover told
Bill Birnes was that the Roswell crash, the Visitors there, they
were time travelers. They were us from the future,
time-traveling future humans, which weĎve heard from other
sources as well.
The most important thing, though, the biggest secret, was how
powerful we are, the Consciousness we have, the ability that we
have. And Bill Birnesí words from George Hoover were: Our
ability to manipulate the Consciousness around us. And if we
started to do that, as far as the controllers were concerned, we
would create havoc.
And this is what must not be known. It must not be known how
powerful we are. Because the time-traveling future humans used
their Consciousness in order to bridge these dimensions.
What these disks are, according to Hoover, and also according to
Philip Corso, who wrote
The Day after Roswell, is that they are
sort of like amplifiers and focusing devices of Consciousness,
and the pilots are an integral part of the machine.
And as any quantum physicist will tell you, itís Consciousness
that actually has the ability to determine whether SchrŲdingerís
cat is alive or dead, to determine probabilistic quantum
outcomes, to actually influence reality. You canít do quantum
physics without taking account of Consciousness.
Therefore this means if you have a very high control, an ability
in that realm, it sort of bridges Mind and Consciousness. Then,
just as great adepts are said to be able to do, you can
bi-locate. So, OK. So weíll do it all together. Weíll do it in a
craft. Itíll help us. Itíll amplify us.
And this is what the crafts are. And this is why they were
baffled when they opened up these things. They couldnít find an
DI: That female voice in the ayahuasca experiences said to me:
Why do you fly in a plane when youíre only flying through
BR: [laughs] Exactly.
DI: And what came to mind when you were talking there, Bill, was
the carry-on of that scene in The Matrix with Agent Smith, where
heís saying: Heíll never be as strong and fast as you can be.
And then the Neo character says: Do you mean Iíll be able to
No, Neo. When youíre ready, you wonít have to.
Controlling your experience, you know. You donít have to dodge
bullets. Youíre going to make sure no-one ever shoots at you.
BR: You arenít in a position where you have to dodge bullets.
DI: Yeah. And you know, people have said to me so many times
over the years, right from the early days: Why arenít you dead?
And it may sound... you know... I can only say what I know deep
inside: They canít. They canít. They canít. They canít. They
If we were coming to do something, and all it took was someone
to shoot a bullet and itís all over, whatís the point? They
What I would say very strongly, and itís coming more and more
into my life, there is an x-factor which I donít understand yet
but I sure as hell know itís there. And itís an x-factor which
is going to bring an end to this childish playground nonsense of
BR: Do you mean an external influence?
DI: Thereís something. Something. I absolutely, at a deep level,
I know it. And whenever I think about it, whenever Iíve been
clear about what Iím talking about now, what I see clearly is
the planet with a cell / prison around it, and a big lock, and a
key going in.
And Iíll tell you a funny story. Well, not a funny story. Iíll
tell you a story. I was feeling so strongly about this about two
weeks ago, and immediately after, I went on the internet and Iím
going through, Iím looking for a picture for my talk. And in
front of me was a planet in a prison cell, with a big lock on
it, which said Master on it, and a key.
That x-factor, that master key, itís coming. Itís coming. And
itís not going to come like cavalry to save everything, but it
is a big factor in... Iím absolutely convinced that the end of
this prison society is a done deal. I think the outcome is going
to happen. I think itís meant to happen.
Weíre now seeing, and it will go on for a while, but weíre now
seeing the last throes of a dying system where the Illuminati in
their box are believing theyíre crashing the system to create
something else, when itís actually crashing, ultimately, for
BR: Is there a real danger? Because youíve got a cornered tiger
that is at its most dangerous when itís cornered. Is that
DI: Oh, these people in their panic are going to thrash out in
all bloody directions. But, you know, thatís just part of this
transition from where we are to where weíre going.
And the thing is, you know, you can look at the news and you can
see the conspiracy moving on. In Britain itís just getting
But what you donít see on the news, and therefore itís not in
your awareness, is how fast the awakening from the amnesic sleep
is moving on. And itís moving on dramatically quickly.
Iím not saying that tomorrow the sunís going to come up and
everythingís going to be fine, you know. Weíre deeply into a
transitional period here and thereís going to be a lot of
challenges, and this thingís going to move on further. But the
outcome, I think, is a done deal. This is going down, and then
we can start to create a new society based on Consciousness
values rather than the limitations of Mind.
And I would just say this, because I think this is important.
From my point of view itís important. I think, you know, thereís
a great danger that this 2012 thing is going to be a massive,
BR: Itís a spiritual Y2K.
DI: [laughs] Thatís what I call it, actually, a spiritual Y2K,
myself. And me, of all people, who saw a psychic in 1990 and was
told a vibrational change was coming. I, of all people, should
be saying: Yeah, look!
2012. Thatís it. Itís more evidence of vibrational change, the transformation! I cannot sync with that
Whatís slightly concerning is the number of emails I get, and
other people I know, their websites get, of people saying:
Whatís the point of doing anything ícause itís all going to change
DI: Thatís like Obama selling hope, which is always the horse in
front on the carousel. No matter how fast you go around, you
never get closer to the horse in front. Thatís what hope does.
What hope is, especially in the way Obama uses it, and what 2012
has the deep potential of becoming, is a holding-position, where
people who could be doing something now just wait around.
what is 2012 symbolically? Itís the cavalry coming.
DI: Hey! Hey! The cavalryís here! Itís not coming. Itís here.
DI: The cavalry needs to get on its horse, incidentally, and
stop waiting for another one to come.
KC: Exactly. I mean itís like Neo in the place where heís at,
where he realizes that he has the ability to become All-That-Is,
and therefore bullets pass through him because heís no longer
KC: Heís actually everywhere. I mean, I know itís words, but in
a sense that is the key that we all hold. And whatís happening
in a sense is, with the wave, thereís actually a facilitation
Weíve been told by various people, but one in particular, Jake
Simpson, who has been on the inside, talks about regardless of
how you view the future, this wave of energy is actually coming
towards our planet, or you could view it as our planet, solar
system, is moving into this energy. It is coming.
So itís like if youíre surfing and you know a wave is coming,
thereís whole groups of people on the planet getting ready to
ride the wave. And so in a sense they have to have the key in
order to ride the wave. In a sense you could say the surfboard,
the Consciousness, the key to understanding who they are and
what Consciousness really is and how they are united, which is
part of the key.
KC: Because we are united. You see, if we know that we are
everywhere, and weíre totally linked up... See, Iím in this body
right now, youíre in that body right now, and between us it
looks like thereís empty space. But in reality this is
Consciousness, this space is incorporated, so there is actually
no break between you and I and Bill here. Weíre all in this sea
BR: Weíre three tips of the same iceberg.
DI: Thatís why becoming conscious is the bottom line of
everything. If we donít become conscious and move into these
realms of understanding this sort of stuff youíre talking about
- that weíre all one Consciousness experiencing itself
subjectively; life is only a dream; matter is just energy
condensed to a slower vibration, as Bill Hicks used to say
--unless we come from this perspective, then...
Whatís the key thing of any dictatorship? Itís divide and rule.
And so, the whole basis of what theyíre doing is taking
Consciousness, Consciousness, Consciousness, Consciousness, and
dividing it in upon itself.
You know, what weíre seeing here is, basically, Consciousness so
manipulated that itís at war with itself because itís come to
so... itís been brought to such a low level of awareness
compared with its potential.
And so the spiritual and the streetwise, the five-cents
conspiracy and the understanding of the nature of reality,
theyíve got to go together. And you know, for too long theyíve
People say: Oh spiritual. Thatís New Age. Oh yeah, thatís
credible. Spiritual? Thatís New Age. Is that credible? And all
that stuff. They have to come together because as one unit
theyíre unstoppable. Apart, again, divide and rule; they have a
fraction of their potential power for change. If people come
from the heart, theyíll know what to do.
DI: If people come from their head, it will tell them a long
list of things why thereís nothing they can do or why thereís no
point in doing them.
Weíre at a fork in the road, you know, symbolically, because
itís a balance of the two that weíre looking for, ideally, here.
But symbolically itís a choice between the head and the heart.
Itís a head-domination or a heart-domination of our sense of
If we take the heart route, then this world will transform from
a manifestation of Mind to a manifestation of Consciousness. It
has to because this is just a projection. This [out-there] has
to follow what goes on here [in-here].
If we take the choice of Mind, then weíre going to live in a
global version of
Nazi Germany. My strong feeling is, although
weíre going to go closer to a global version of Nazi Germany,
ultimately the whole thing will collapse because the awakening
will cease to hold it together.
BR: If you were a betting man, what would you say the timescale
of events, the rollout, will be over the next one, two, three,
five, ten years? If you were a historian, what do you think
youíd be writing about?
DI: Iíd say - and Iím probably being optimistic - Iíd say we
would live in a global version of Nazi Germany within ten years
if we take that route [the head]. If we take that route [the
heart], weíll in ten yearsí time be deeply into a transition to
a very different world. Itís just a choice.
But this x-factor is going to help us to change the world to one
that I would like to live in. I donít know what the x-factor is,
but I know itís coming. Itíll be fine.
KC: Well thank you, David.
DI: Thanks, Kerry.
DI: Itís been a pleasure. Thanks, Bill.
BR: Thank you so much.
KC: Looking forward to the future.
BR: Thatís a good wrap.
KC: And the future is now.
BR: And the future is now.
DI: And always was.